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Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by hannob on Monday May 01, 2023 @01:11AM (#35769316)
I've recently started playing chess again a bit (after doing it a bit when I was a teen), and there's an interesting aspect of online chess that I began to realize: When I was young you needed a local opponent to play chess, and that wasn't always easy. Why? Because most people around you were either significantly better (you always loose) or worse (you always win). It's not an interesting game if the outcome is almost always the same.

It's obviously a complete gamechanger when you have a plattform like chess.com which automatically figures out how good you are and matches you with a roughly equally skilled opponent.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by danmaz74 on Monday May 01, 2023 @02:08AM (#35769546)
Yes, the rating system is fundamental to be able to enjoy the game, and also to lower the impact of cheating: if my rating is 1500 and I play against other players around 1500, I don't care if they are at that level thanks to cheating or not. I only care about being competitive with them and trying to do my best.

-- Shameless plug: I recently released a platform to improve tactically with puzzles and spaced repetitions, https://chess.braimax.com - feedback very welcome!

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by 10000truths on Monday May 01, 2023 @02:17AM (#35769591)
You're assuming a steady-state equilibrium. It takes several games for a player to settle into their Elo, and a cheater will have ruined the experience of their opponents in the meantime. You're also discounting the fact that griefers will deliberately create new accounts to continue playing against novice opponents.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by danmaz74 on Monday May 01, 2023 @02:39AM (#35769709)
How is this different from good (non-cheating) players joining a new website and having to get to their realistic rating? This happens, but as a percentage of games you play it has a very low impact; moreover, platforms usually tell you that a player has a not-yet-established rating with a question mark, eg 1620?

My suggestion is to just stop thinking about cheaters when playing online rated games. I started doing so years ago, and have increased my enjoyment of the game A LOT, without any visible downside.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by saiya-jin on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:39AM (#35770059)
Yeah seems like a trivial issue to fix - first 10 games are for evaluation, heck they can be had even against computer. Very few people are so pathetic/psychopathic to invest so much time into getting a rank and then cheating on real opponents and tank their account quickly. And for those few, just don't care about them, its just a game after all.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by quijoteuniv on Monday May 01, 2023 @02:30AM (#35769665)
Imagine when you discover Lichess!
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by qsort on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:13AM (#35769903)
I can't recommend Lichess enough.

It's free (freedom & beer), it has no ads, and it's feature-complete. It even has stuff that other websites make you pay for, like post-game computer annotation. It offers a web interface where you can play without even registering an account and free (again, freedom & beer) apps for iOS and Android.

The only downside when compared to chess.com is that fewer top-level professionals play there. Which is not an issue unless you're literally a super GM.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by stavros on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:53AM (#35770471)
Lichess is amazing, I play there exclusively. However, I am plagued by a terrible bug: the Android app has half a second of lag when opening any screen for some reason.

It doesn't matter what connection I'm on, and the website is always instant, but the Android app always takes half a second to load any screen. It's infuriating when you want to view the analysis, or just navigate around the app.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by prollings on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:07AM (#35770534)
I've taken to "installing" the webapp version on my phone. It's only a little bit different, but doesn't come with the frustrating issues the android app does.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by stavros on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:08AM (#35770538)
I've tried, but the analysis UI is different enough to be a bit more frustrating :(
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by stefncb on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:24AM (#35770642)
Weird, it's always worked perfectly for me. Now that I think about it I haven't updated in a long time, and after this I probably won't.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by stavros on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:37AM (#35770702)
I think it may be something about my phone, but who knows. Everything else works fine.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by ByThyGrace on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:14AM (#35773046)
I have a similar delay bug with the website itself. I've not reported it because I don't use my lichess account to play actual games, only puzzles. The lichess boards will only let you post a new thread if you have games on your history, and I refuse to comply as I've played thousands of puzzles and I should have clearance, and yes that's petty, anyway...

My bug is about Puzzle Storm. When you run out of time, the GUI shows you the post game screen and it takes a fraction of a second before it pops in a "daily record" banner. This fraction of a second is slow enough for me to drag my mouse cursor over the "Failed puzzles" filter, but fast enough for me to accidentally click "Play again" as it has been pushed down the page (by the daily record div) without me perceiving it yet. Once clicked, that button resets the page to start another puzzle storm and by then I've lost the failed puzzle history, so I can't go over it anymore.

It has happened already in the hundreds of times. I can't help it, hopefully the dev one day figures it out.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by TechBro8615 on Monday May 01, 2023 @12:19PM (#35775016)
Have you tried disabling content blockers (including PiHole if you're in the app)? I'm not on Android, and haven't seen this but in Lichess, but when I see similar bugs on iOS, disabling content blockers often fixes them.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by stavros on Monday May 01, 2023 @12:30PM (#35775193)
I don't have any enabled :( I'll see if I have some weird DNS setting or something, thank you.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by cjonas on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:19AM (#35769944)
I find it odd that all my friends & coworkers in the tech industry have ended up on chess.com instead of lichess. Even beyond the fact it's totally free (and free of ads), the architecture itself is super interesting: https://lichess.org/@/thibault/blog/starting-from-scratch/NI...

It must be one of the best examples of a very large scale implementation of features that are simple and easy to understand

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by davidguetta on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:20AM (#35770616)
Its network effect. My friend was on chesscom so i went there. Now im on lichess but only because chesscom increased its basic price x3.

Also puzzles are slightly better on chesscom and (arguably) the analysis interface imo

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by floitsch on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:47AM (#35772722)
For games I'm usually on lichess, but for puzzles I tend to use chesstempo.com. I find their quality just better.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by mcv on Monday May 01, 2023 @06:20AM (#35770929)
What are the differences? I'm not familiar with lichess, but chess.com has tons of bots at various levels that you can play against, and you can have one game per day analysed by stockfish for free (more costs money). I think that's a pretty good deal.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by esrauch on Monday May 01, 2023 @06:44AM (#35771057)
You can analyze unlimited games for free on Lichess (both locally in browser and also serverside analysis that I think is donated server time). It lets you play against stockfish bits but they don't have "personalities" like the Chess.com ones do.

You also have unlimited free puzzles on lichess (paid on chesscom). Chess.com probably has a better library of learning content if you're into that (much of it paid though).

IMO if you're not paying I can't see why anyone would prefer chess.com over lichess: you get less and also get ass for the trouble. If you don't care about the monthly subscription cost, then maybe chess.com has fringe benefits over lichess.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by ajonit on Monday May 01, 2023 @07:04AM (#35771186)
>>IMO if you're not paying I can't see why anyone would prefer chess.com over lichess<< For someone like me who has been playing for several decades now, it's the UI of chess.com/app.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by aklemm on Monday May 01, 2023 @07:55AM (#35771554)
And then there’s me who finds chess.com kind of cartoonish and ugly
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by aeoliun on Monday May 01, 2023 @07:57AM (#35771573)
Differences that I've noticed:

1. Lichess rating is ~200-300 points ahead of a Chess.com rating. Not in the sense that players are better, but an 800 player on Chess.com will probably be 1000-1100 on Lichess.

2. Fantastic analysis tool. Chess.com analysis tends to be a bit funky sometimes.

3. Zen Mode. Not really a pro / con, but it's nice to hide the UI and just have a board on the screen when playing.

4. Free, obviously. No ads.

5. Younger audiences may want to play where their favorite streamer players, which tends to be Chess.com for nearly everyone unless you're Eric Rosen. Hikaru Nakamura, GothamChess, Magnus Carlsen, Botez Sisters, Anna Cramling, and Chessbrah are all on Chess.com.

6. Chess.com has better puzzles, although limited on the free tier.

I don't have exact numbers on population for both platforms, but if someone can correct me, I'm fairly sure Chess.com holds the majority of players.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by conradkay on Monday May 01, 2023 @09:09AM (#35772291)
https://lichess.org/player/bots

Maia is great, probably more human than the chess.com bots.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by TechBro8615 on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:09AM (#35772968)
IMO the Lichess app is superior. On desktop, the analysis features of Lichess and its database are superior. Ding Liren used the Lichess database to prepare.

I also like Lichess because I can play in arena tournaments against players with a much higher rating than me, which helps me learn - I'm not sure if this is so easy to do on Chess.com.

I paid for Chess.com for a while, but I stopped subscribing when I realized I never used it. Meanwhile I have multiple days of playtime on Lichess. Also, the owners of Chess.com don't seem like very nice people.

I'm pretty sure the pros and streamers prefer Lichess too, but they're sponsored by Chess.com so they have to pretend to like it.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by Pyramus on Monday May 01, 2023 @06:08AM (#35770864)
As someone who plays exclusively on Lichess I find the chess.com bashing, particularly here on HN, a bit short-sighted, in the sense that it's focussed on who provides the better (free) online service to play chess.

If your goal, however, is to popularise the game of chess, i.e. to get more people to play chess, a free online service is only a necessary condition. Chess.com seems to be able to sponsor and organise tournaments, pay content creators/chess players, offer live streams with professional commentators, etc. But also take legal responsibility and stand up to lawsuits.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this. I don't see Lichess being able to provide this type of value, and I'm not sure if they want to or should.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by aoeusnth1 on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:38AM (#35774354)
I think both chess.com and lichess are positive influences on the chess scene. We need a corporate presence to be able to organize tournaments, find sponsors, and support streamers.

That said, I prefer lichess and think most people should be using it. But I understand it’s not about the platform’s technical features; for most people, it’s about the network effect with their friends.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by zpeti on Monday May 01, 2023 @02:48AM (#35769770)
I had a similar experience in jiu jitsu, everyone is way better or way worse, so it’s very frustrating to play usually.

Unfortunately there isn’t an online jiu jitsu platform :)

I’ve also found there’s many many parallels between chess and jiu jitsu, which is really interesting, chess really is a super aggressive combat sport in terms of mental work.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by curun1r on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:27AM (#35769994)
The other fundamentally different thing is the learning tools. As a kid, I had one book on one opening and I had to sit by a board reading it to make the moves to try to dial in the learning. It was a slow and laborious process. I tried checking out another chess book from the library, but had to return it before I made significant headway. There was also one chess puzzle in the newspaper per week, which was fun, but not enough to really make a difference in my skill level.

Kids today can explore/memorize many openings and cover many more variations because of the online courses, some of which are even free. They can quiz themselves to ensure they dial in the move orders. And they can access hundreds of thousands of puzzles in rapid succession to improve their middle-game tactics and pattern recognition. And that’s not even going into having access to chess engines stronger than any human player to explore lines and learn why bad moves are bad.

All this makes studying the game so much easier, even before you test yourself against an actual opponent.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by HDThoreaun on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:09AM (#35773870)
Chess apps having analysis baked in is a huge win for learning. I go through the analysis of every game I play now and make sure I find the moves I lost, it's improved my game greatly.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by Aromasin on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:42AM (#35830722)
I've started using Chessable, and shot up about 500 elo in the past month. It's effectively chess books distilled into a rote memorization platforms. I picked one opening for white, two for black, and have drilled those variations to the point where I'm now dreaming chess moves. It's insane how easy it is to get very good, very quickly, with modern chess educational tools.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by GistNoesis on Monday May 01, 2023 @03:57AM (#35770152)
I think matching by level is quite psychologically destructive, and should be avoided.

People grind for hours and they see no sense of progress as they keep always being around 50% winrate because the stronger they get, the better the opponent get. And inversely they can play drunk chess and still win 50% and burn time pushing random pieces for a little short-term fun.

It probably depends on people but I think the average ratio for people to progress optimally their should be around four wins for one loss. And the loss should be correlated to the way you played. Anything below 80% winrate, means it becomes hard to distinguish the learning signal from the variance of the matching. The brain also need some balance between the carrot and the stick otherwise the ego take a hit.

Rating system also generate some strata artefacts meaning there are levels you can't get past without spending as much time as your opponent on tactics, or openings, and you never get to experience chess on a more strategic level, or deeper understanding level. This mean that most of the fun get extracted out of chess once you get addicted/interested enough.

I think it's much better to play unrated games anonymously against a random pool of anonymous players (eventually with a min level to exclude complete novices), and offer rematch when the games were interesting. You should play to win but your reward signal shouldn't be the win but rather the interestingness of the game for both opponent.

When playing you should try to understand your opponent, his current chess understanding and how it's revealed through his current moves, and construct with the board some situations that will be interesting enough for the both of you to have a good time. Don't play the board. Play the player through the board. A good game should look more like a dance than a fight. You have to infer from a few moves who your opponent is, and how to interact with him in a constructive way.

That's what popular streamer do when they play their viewers (usually friendly and constructive). And that's probably what teens expect when they join chess after viewing a few videos. But instead they get thrown into an adverse destructive pit of soulless addicted grinders.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by dayjaby on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:26AM (#35770315)
I play different elo-rated games for the past 13 years and completely disagree with you. 50% is very healthy psychologically as it keeps you humble and challenged all the time.

If your play improves to ~55% win rate, you already feel highly rewarded and most of the reward feelings come from the fact that you now play on higher elo. You don't care about single losses/wins anymore.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by gubby on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:15AM (#35770264)
Interesting point, but of course it’s not possible to create a platform with an average win rate of 80%.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by sbergot on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:41AM (#35770391)
In some video games you may randomly face an AI opponent without the game being explicit about it. That way the average human win rate can be above 50%. I don't know yet if this is good or bad.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by rcxdude on Monday May 01, 2023 @04:20AM (#35770292)
Nor any actual group of people. This "optimal" is zero sum: someone else has to have a lower winrate in order for it to work.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by orthoxerox on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:12AM (#35773023)
And yet when you see a professional boxing match, both boxers' win rate is usually above 90%, not 50%.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by hgsgm on Monday May 01, 2023 @11:44PM (#35783115)
A boxing career has approximately 0 rated fights. A cheap career has hundreds to thousands.
Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by dist1ll on Monday May 01, 2023 @05:39AM (#35770713)
That's a very elaborate way of saying that competitive players should delude themselves to cope with their weak mental game.

> Anything below 80% winrate, means it becomes hard to distinguish the learning signal from the variance of the matching.

Using winrate as a learning signal is your first mistake. You're making a million different decisions per game, and then decide to summarize it with a binary W/L? If you want proper signal, you need to analyze your games on a more fine-grained level.

> And the loss should be correlated to the way you played.

No, it shouldn't and doesn't. Dealing with variance, and things beyond your control is an essential part of developing a strong mentality. Especially when playing in-person.

> The brain also need some balance between the carrot and the stick otherwise the ego take a hit.

If your ego takes a hit from this, you need to get back to the drawing board instead of praying that the world will change to accommodate your issues.

> you can't get past without spending as much time as your opponent on tactics, or openings, and you never get to experience chess on a more strategic level, or deeper understanding level. This mean that most of the fun get extracted out of chess once you get addicted/interested enough.

I can't speak to the "lack of stategy", but what makes a game fun to compete in is highly subjective.

> soulless addicted grinders

This is the exact kind of language and attitude I would see from players who plateau hard, and looking for external factors to blame.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by oblio on Monday May 08, 2023 @07:51AM (#35860546)
You sounds like a Dota player.

You do realize that a lot of players play for their definition of fun and don't derive or base their personality around their strength as chess players, I hope?

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by Shorel on Monday May 01, 2023 @10:46AM (#35773486)
You can set up some AI to let you win 80% of times, and let the game to the real players. That way, you will feel better.

I dabble in the realm of simracing. Man, what would I do for a 50% win rate. Every race is hard fought, and the possibility of a victory is far below 15%.

The times I have won, I trained the whole week, it was hard-earned, and really, nothing has felt better since. It's a high I can still ride with pride.

IMO, if you want to win more, you should train harder, or try something easier.

Re:Why teens are suddenly obsessed with chess by ouid on Monday May 01, 2023 @12:23PM (#35775074)
I think lichess.org is generally a better place to play. Less pointless monetization. More content available. Better alt modes.