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Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by ChuckMcM on Sunday April 16, 2023 @07:23PM (#35595093)
That was a great read. I particularly liked that the dorsal orientation was strong enough that a light below the insect would invert it, even if that meant making it crash. I'm going to build an immersible lamp that I can put into a bucket with a layer of oil on the top (viscous fluid) so that the lamp is just below the surface of the oil. Based on the reasoning of this paper, it should result in flying insects inverting and doing a dive into the oil to their demise.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by agentgumshoe on Sunday April 16, 2023 @07:32PM (#35595160)
Why would you do that?
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by ChuckMcM on Sunday April 16, 2023 @07:49PM (#35595232)
Two reasons, the first being to run an experiment whose result is predicted by the paper, in order to confirm the science in the paper.

The second being to mitigate the accumulation of insects around my campsite.

While it is true that insect populations world wide have been impacted by the commercial deployment of pesticides by large agricultural operations, it is not true that populations outside that particular affect are negatively affected. Insects, as a fauna, have an extraordinarily effective reproductive cycle relative to the natural hazards they encounter every day.

The most recent article about excess honeybee populations was a good example of how honeybees that are outside of the risk zone are not in any danger of becoming extinct but can and do displace important local pollinators.

A non-persistent local light trap is the ideal mitigation strategy for insects in a particular regions because it leaves no lasting footprint, doesn't contaminate the food chain, and has zero net impact on the overall population density of the insects.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by jvanderbot on Sunday April 16, 2023 @08:02PM (#35595301)
The first rule of any bug trap is to put it in your neighbors site. Traps attract more than they kill.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by kingcharles on Sunday April 16, 2023 @08:08PM (#35595336)
This had never crossed my mind before but seems reasonable in retrospect.

Essentially you are saying that bug zappers actually exasperate the problem they are trying to solve and it would be better to not use one?

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by ChatGTP on Sunday April 16, 2023 @08:13PM (#35595357)
Same for swatting bugs, the smell of the squished bugs can sometimes make for more bugs come along.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by beerandt on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:05PM (#35596448)
I've been battling the Japanese Lady Beatles at my house every winter since we've moved in, and it's taught me so much about both of these things- and that most seo results about insect traps etc are entirely wrong about.

I haven't figured out the sweetspot for attractant trap placement yet. It's not inside or attached to your camp or house.

But I know that cold, dry, nonstressed deaths for those that do intrude minimizes the ultimate number that invade via that route. Don't heat them, including by cleaning then up with a standard vacuum.

Interesting facts (according to me): their smell that attracts others is one of those like asparagus, that only some people seem to sense.

But to me smells like burning peanut butter toast crossed with a kaolin/ clay.

Also they hate vibrations/ noise and will aggressively attack and bite in retaliation.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by interfixus on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:17AM (#35597094)
> I've been battling the Japanese Lady Beatles

You have a Yoko Ono infestation?

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by dsjoerg on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:06PM (#35595701)
Depends on the characteristics of the trap, the bait and the bug, doesn't it? A highly attractive trap with a steep drop-off, and large and effective kill zone, and a kind of bug with a small but active nightly migration radius (when near campers) (compared to the trap attraction radius) might quickly attract and kill all the bugs that will come into that radius that night.

When you kill all those bugs in the first hour of the night, does that leave a noticeable excess-food signal in the region where the dead bugs use to be?

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by ChuckMcM on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:15PM (#35595750)
Here the science suggests that just having a light isn't an attractant. It just happens to confuse the bugs flying by. Statisically they would be no more likely to go to the neighbors site or yours. Of course it also suggests that if you surrounded your site with lights that it could create a "light shield" which would disrupt the flying pattern of any bug that was on a vector that passed by your site.

That suggests another interesting test which would be to use a bunch of rope lights to create a complete circle around your site to disrupt all bug flights going in or out of your area. Presumably it could create a higher density at the perimeter of disrupted bugs.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by danans on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:04PM (#35596441)
> That suggests another interesting test which would be to use a bunch of rope lights to create a complete circle around your site

A bug Faraday cage. Neat. Though it could reduce the ambiance of camping by limiting the view of the stars.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by martyvis on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:13PM (#35596485)
That's rather interesting. In late summer when I think there are lot of bugs in the grass, I would find if I had my headlamp with the default white light (even fairly dim) they tended hit my face more to my liking when walking in my backyard. But putting on the red LED almost none annoyed me.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by ChuckMcM on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:17PM (#35596506)
Again, per the paper, the night sky is actually pretty luminous and nominally the bugs can still orient "up" with their top toward the night sky. If your red light was comparable to the illumination flux from the night sky you would see this effect.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by pfannkuchen on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:16AM (#35597086)
It is really entertaining that you would appear to have a specific preference about just how bugs hit your face.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by discreteevent on Monday April 17, 2023 @04:11AM (#35598017)
It's probable that the psychological effect of having the light on is distorting how they perceive the insects hitting. I think the only scientific way to deal with this would be to make a bug spraying machine that can spray bugs at someone's face in different patterns. It may take a little time to find the right pattern, but when the subject thinks it matches what they experience with the headlamp they could say "Yes! Yes! That's the one!" (or they could just put their thumbs up and smile if they prefer not to open their mouth)
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by LorenPechtel on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:03PM (#35602712)
I recently bought a red headlamp for night hiking because I wanted to try something that wouldn't kill my night vision (under a good moon I prefer to hike without a light as using a light kills your night vision and thus your distance vision) but if it doesn't draw bugs that's an extra plus. At the borderline I usually avoid using my headlamp because the bugs it draws are annoying--when something flies a couple of inches from your face it's very bright!
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by dylan604 on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:18AM (#35596805)
>The second being to mitigate the accumulation of insects around my campsite.

If this was your house, maybe, okay. However, when you go camping, you are technically a guest in the bug's house.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by worthless-trash on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:23AM (#35596833)
on a long enough timeframe, we're all guests in the bugs house.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by pkdpic on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:58AM (#35596994)
Heck yeah we are. Also wherever your house is and whenever it was built theres a 100% chance it was built on a bugs house and theres definitely a haunted mass grave of insects under and around it.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by dylan604 on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:05AM (#35597024)
yes, but there was proper notice given, and the planning permits were on display that construction was going to be occurring. there was plenty of time to relocate rather waking up one day and having the color yellow front of mind and needlessly laying down in front of the equipment.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by worthless-trash on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:44AM (#35597202)
At least the plans weren't on display It in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.”
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by EntrePrescott on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:21AM (#35597112)
all the more reason - whatever the observed timeframe - to not behave like assholes towards insects and other life or nature in general.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by xpe on Monday April 17, 2023 @03:32PM (#35605398)
> all the more reason - whatever the observed timeframe - for us humans to not behave like assholes towards insects and other life or nature in general.

But what about kudzo?

> Kudzu, a perennial vine native to Japan and China, was first introduced into the USA in 1876 and was actively promoted by the government as a “wonderplant", It expanded to cover over 1 million ha by 1946 and well over 2 million ha today. When Kudzu invades a forest, it prevents the growth of young hardwoods and kills off other plants. Kudzu causes damage to powerlines, and even overwhelms homes, Kudzu has invaded important protected areas, requiring significant investment of management resources, The management response to date outside the protected areas has been insufficient to deal with this very significant threat.

Sounds like an asshole to me.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by throwaway290 on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:22AM (#35597373)
Don't forget everyone who feeds on bugs (as well as those who feed on those who feed on bugs).
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by _448 on Monday April 17, 2023 @04:41AM (#35598191)
> Don't forget everyone who feeds on bugs

Is the OP killing them because s/he has no other alternative to feed himself/herself, or is it because of the annoyance even though s/he is in their habitat?

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by throwaway290 on Monday April 17, 2023 @05:31AM (#35598503)
I don't think OP feeds on bugs, that's why mass killing of insects seems wrong. If it's a campsite it's less bad though than if it was a house where you could just turn down outside lights instead.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by xpe on Monday April 17, 2023 @04:40AM (#35598185)
I agree with the sentiment of not elevating selfish human desires over the health of an existing ecosystem.

But defining "the health" of an ecosystem is tricky. An invading invasive species is better adapted after all, and it is part of nature.

We need clearer understanding of what we mean by nature and what we are protecting. Are we just trying to hold on to some moment of time in a dynamic ecosystem? Maybe. Protecting the status quo might be practical in terms of human survival, but this doesn't feel like a moral invariant that some people hold it up to be.

All this said, I feel a deep connection with nature, and I recognize this most likely comes from us evolving alongside it. But I recognize my own bias; I care less about mosquitos and more about birds.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by pastacacioepepe on Monday April 17, 2023 @07:45AM (#35599348)
You talk as if the bug would have any respect for your house. Spoiler: they don't, bugs will literally eat your house to feed themselves (termites). I understand and support the concept that the existence of bugs is beneficial to us and so we should refrain from eliminating them, but there's nothing natural about the concept of respect for a bug's "house".
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by xpe on Monday April 17, 2023 @03:36PM (#35605437)
Good point and the whole idea of what is natural tends be anchored at some point in time, from some point of view. All too often, people use natural as a (unimpressive) rhetorical technique to justify some moral claim. Such claims fall apart when you (a) define nature at some other time or point of view; or (b) reject the notion that behavior we see in nature (in all its wonder, complexity, ruthlessness, and cruelty) should be the fundamental basis for human morality.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by aziaziazi on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:37AM (#35597456)
> run an experiment whose result is predicted by the paper, in order to confirm the science in the paper

Why would you do that ? I understand the science process but if you do this in an hardly reproductible environment (x setup in y location with z group of fauna), how can this confirm anything useful ?

> The second being to mitigate the accumulation of insects around my campsite.

Another reply recommend to use yellow light bulbs, that may also do the trick

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by aydyn on Monday April 17, 2023 @04:59AM (#35598306)
He could run a control. one bucket with light, one without.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by vlovich123 on Monday April 17, 2023 @03:07AM (#35597604)
> Insects, as a fauna, have an extraordinarily effective reproductive cycle relative to the natural hazards they encounter every day.

Sorry, these light traps you’re using are a natural phenomena the bugs have evolved to be effective against with breeding? Can you elaborate on that line of training?

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by sylware on Monday April 17, 2023 @06:28AM (#35598894)
This does recall my youth (in my country): when with my parents we were driving on highways, I recall clearly the insects crashing into the windshield which would have been to be cleanup after a few hours of driving.

This has not being happening anymore for a 2 decades...

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by sbst32 on Monday April 17, 2023 @06:40AM (#35598960)
What is the country? For me it is still happening in any country I drive.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by sylware on Monday April 17, 2023 @06:43AM (#35598982)
France, and I meant A LOT of insects VERY FAST.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by iLemming on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:49PM (#35603335)
The cars also improved aerodynamically. Modern cars designed to minimize the dead insect build up on the windshield. I suppose you're not driving the same old car for the past two decades?
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by ChatGTP on Sunday April 16, 2023 @07:36PM (#35595174)
Sounds like a pretty scummy thing to do, especially considering insects contribute to your ongoing survival?

What about turning lights off around your house a night do they don’t come near you and forget the oil ? You can live in harmony with insects.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by MagicMoonlight on Sunday April 16, 2023 @08:03PM (#35595305)
No, fuck the bugs.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by labster on Sunday April 16, 2023 @08:08PM (#35595340)
Nice try, chatbot, but your vegan-esque moralization is just a cover for your real goal: get humans to catch more insect-borne diseases so you can take over.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by progman32 on Sunday April 16, 2023 @09:56PM (#35596027)
You're getting a lot of strong reactions here, so I'll just stand up and say I agree with the point I think you're making, which is that the cavalier attitude some people have towards killing harmless insects is misplaced, especially when interactions can be mitigated easily. I'm not so sure it's as simple as turning lights off, though.

I do not hold the same opinion on disease carrying insects. They, regrettably, must be eliminated where people live. It's unclear which insects op is intending to kill. Around here such a campsite trap would net almost exclusively mosquitoes, which count as disease vectors to my eyes.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by wernercd on Sunday April 16, 2023 @10:15PM (#35596171)
"harmless"

They will do everything in their power to kill and eat you and give you diseases.

We do need them but harmless? Mother Nature is anything but harmless.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by orbisvicis on Sunday April 16, 2023 @10:42PM (#35596316)
Regarding common disease vectors in insects, what is going on with ticks in the eastern US? 20 years ago I could go hiking in thousands of acres of pristine national forest and catch maybe one or two a year. Now I catch one or two per hike from local trails, picnicking, or even from the turf at a soccer game.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by xyzzy_plugh on Sunday April 16, 2023 @10:55PM (#35596374)
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by CalRobert on Monday April 17, 2023 @05:25AM (#35598456)
Winters don't freeze them anymore.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by jaystraw on Monday April 17, 2023 @06:19AM (#35598846)
I grew up in PA in the early 90's, and ticks were everywhere, even in the suburban woods we'd play in. About 25 years ago when my family took a trip to Chincoteague Island in VA, my little sister got Lyme disease.

Even in the late 90's, I must've brought a pregnant tick into the house with me, there were scores of them in my room one summer.

I now live in Anchorage Alaska -- and while there are no deer ticks, ticks that bite dogs have been steadily moving up the coast and are now here.

So I agree about numbers and range extending, but not the timeline you mention. Those suckers were everywhere on the east coast 30 years ago.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by tbran on Monday April 17, 2023 @10:03AM (#35600838)
Here are a few factors:

- Deer populations are increasing.

- There are no winter killoffs due to warming temperatures.

- Invasive plants like Japanese barberry are becoming extremely common and create microclimates that support mice that ticks live on before attaching to deer.

I believe some tick-borne diseases are becoming more common - I know two people that have had babesiosis, and one person and one dog with anaplasmosis. One of the babesiosis cases was not caught by the hospital in the first go-around and required a blood exchange and almost 2 months in the hospital and rehab.

There is a new invasive insect called the deer ked [0] that crawls like the girl from The Ring and may be a new vector for tick diseases (and they fly!).

Highly recommend checking out the CDC on tick-borne diseases [1], using DEET/permethrin [2] (no permethrin with cats, though), and doing tick checks if you spend time outside.

[0]: https://www.cdc.gov/ticks/tickbornediseases/index.html

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipoptena_cervi

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by IG_Semmelweiss on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @10:33PM (#35623593)
Note for dogs:

Babeosis is stil rare in the northern US.

When you go to a hospital due to a suspected tick bite, keep in mind the standard tick panel does NOT include babeosis screening

You must do a full panel (some 26 tests) in order to detect it. These are often not available in most vet offices.

Babeosis is extremely common in the tropical climate of LATAM. If you take your dog there, and he comes back to the US sick , Consider that your US hospital may be dealing with an exotic disease (unlike LATAM, where this would be a dime a dozen)

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by newZWhoDis on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:05AM (#35596736)
You’re speaking to a terminator that’s siding with the bugs
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by HopenHeyHi on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:16PM (#35596503)
I can't even live in harmony with you.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by silisili on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:40AM (#35596913)
I mean, I assume OP is talking about a handful of bugs, not inventing DDT reincarnate. We probably kill as many if not more everytime we get on the highway in summer, location depending.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by ChatGTP on Monday April 17, 2023 @08:14AM (#35599606)
So I’m not sure that’s a positive thing either ?
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by jhanschoo on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:40AM (#35597466)
The amount of biomass you kill in one night at a campsite with such a light is very insignificant.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday April 16, 2023 @11:04PM (#35596440)
Most flying insects can't see yellow light.

I've used those anti-insect yellow lights in all fittings outside my house for years and they dramatically reduce the number and type of all insects, including spiders, hanging about.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by james-bcn on Monday April 17, 2023 @03:29AM (#35597734)
I've not heard of this before. Can you give more details about the lights?
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by endorphine on Monday April 17, 2023 @01:59AM (#35597273)
There are these traps which are blue-light lamps that emit a small (for humans) amount of electricity, that is however enough to kill the small insects that are attracted to it.

On a summer night, you'll see it being full of insects after 1 hour of operation.

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by cbzoiav on Monday April 17, 2023 @07:22AM (#35599202)
I think they're pretty high voltage / have a guard to stop humans touching the conductor?

We used to have them in a lab I worked in and occasionally a larger insect (e.g. wasp) would get caught between two rows of the grid and you'd hear it spark / them cook...

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by yencabulator on Monday April 17, 2023 @12:35PM (#35603163)
There's variants where the light is in a location that is hard for insects to exit. I've seen 1) fan causing airflow that's hard to "fly upstream" in 2) funnel shapes that make entry easy, but finding the exit hard. These avoid the zap aspect, and use less power (LED and maybe fan).
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by red-iron-pine on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:29PM (#35604591)
They're not kidding when they say full either. I'm in Western Canada and mosquitoes are essentially the unofficial national bird. They big, aggressive, and numerous. Literally handfuls of dead mozzies after running that thing for a few hours.

Is also why I started putting up bird feeders and nesting areas -- they control insects including the mosquitoes, and after seeing just how many were out there...

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by segmondy on Monday April 17, 2023 @06:21PM (#35607438)
If your house is sealed tight you can build a bat house, hat will control mosquitoes too.
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by IG_Semmelweiss on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @10:22PM (#35623512)
Be careful.

Bats can contort to fit almost any hole in the house. They are effectively tiny mice.

And just like nice, they make noises with their claws when they get into the walls (they will ryn when not airborne and quite fast too)

And their poop will bring hordes of cockroaches....

Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by leobg on Monday April 17, 2023 @02:48PM (#35604826)
Have a link? There are many that I think are just gimmicks. Yours sounds as though it works. Thanks
Re:Why flying insects gather at artificial light by DeusExMachina on Tuesday April 18, 2023 @01:45PM (#35617274)
Zapping insects spreads a lot of germs into the air. There are newer versions that suck the insects in through a fan.