In a previous apartment that had an electric range, I was prepared to be super bummed out when cooking, and I cook a lot.

I was shocked to absolutely fall in love with it. I'm back to gas now in a new apartment and it's sad.

Modern electric simply gets so much hotter so much faster. It's like the ultimate luxury. It's true I had to get used to sliding the pan off the heat instead of turning down the gas, but that's easy.

For me, there's zero sensory loss. It's not like you really ever even see the flame anyways since it's covered by the pan. Everything sensory about cooking is the sizzle in the pan, not what's heating it underneath.

And there's nothing sad about a concerted political effort -- that's what efforts are for, to improve public health by reducing emissions and reducing childhood asthma.

(Outdoor charcoal grills are another matter, I'll admit though -- for the heat and the char and the smoke flavor, there's no electric equivalent.)

I won't rent an apartment with a gas stove these days. Not only is it extremely slow to heat liquids, it's also an incredible pain in the ass to clean and you have to be extra careful to ventilate the area to reduce the amount of air pollution being created.

Yep! So many advantages of induction.

> Not only is it extremely slow to heat liquids

This isn't a function of fuel, it's a function of output, which varies model-by-model. I have an electric stove/hob in my flat in London, and it takes -- no joke -- well over 30 minutes to boil two litres of water.

Conversely, my last house in the US before moving to the UK had a 25,000 BTU gas burner which was so hot that you could barely use it. It boiled water extremely quickly, and it was great for seasoning cast iron because of how quickly it would reach temperature and polymerise the oil. The whole setup was also easy to clean, as pretty much the entire thing came apart. Sure, not quite as easy as a glass top, but it also wouldn't get scratched all to hell by sliding my cast iron around.

I think there's a large class of people unduly turned off non-gas by experience with non-induction (conduction) electric hobs. They are/were pretty crap - slightly better than gas in limited ways; with other drawbacks, including more expensive.

Induction brings the price down to a point where you need to look at temporal regional prices, isn't hot when it's turned off, and delivers significant power highly efficiently, with a very easy to clean surface. I don't see why the ultimate kitchen needs any kind of hob but induction and proper (massive upward flame for when the flame itself is actually in use) wok burners.

Even glass-covered resistance electric stovetops are better than they used to be. I'm perfectly satisfied with mine. The handful of recipes where it's useful to have an open flame can often be accomplished with a hand torch or the broiler. My next stove will be induction, but in the meantime I'm not missing gas.

What are your open flame uses that can be achieved with a grill or handheld? I would have said they are extremely few, but not really substitutable (except that in pan on any hob type is already a substitute) - wok (engulfed in flame such that it's not just bottom heated), phulka/similar breads (charred and blown up more effectively on naked flame) and I can't think what else?

One common method of roasting peppers is to do it over an open flame, but you can do it with a broiler. You can also use a torch to improve the flavor of stir fries if you don't have a high-BTU wok burner:

https://www.seriouseats.com/hei-now-youre-a-wok-star-a-fiery...

I like induction stoves, and I am a foodie who really likes to cook, but where a few years ago, I thought that induction would surely take over for every indoor application everywhere, but I've come to accept that as wrong after discovering the joys of cooking on a wok.

For those who haven't, the beauty of a wok is that flames can creep up the sides of the wok -- the whole surface is "hot" but gets hotter as you descend into the bowl, so that you can sear steaks and vegetables really quickly, then add other ingredients. The sides need to be hot -- it doesn't work on a flat cooktop -- so that you can add sauces to the outside of the wok and they'll do this magic caramelization trick as they descend the bowl of the wok.

As your slower-cooking ingredients are finished cooking, you sort of push them up the sides of the wok and then add in your faster ingredients so that everything comes together in a single pot, beautifully cooked, all at the same time.

I've tried and tried to replicate the experience on induction, but I can't, and I can't imagine anything that does. I have a komodo grill and bought an insert that allows me to use a wok on it, but while it's very good, it still isn't quite the same (can't "turn down" a bed of coals as quickly or precisely, for instance,) isn't really an option for most apartment dwellers, and tho I do not know, I don't suspect that firing up a bunch of carbonized coals is somehow better for the environment than gas (but it might be?)

For woks alone, I suspect there'll always be a justification for open flames. Would love to hear more impressions from those who grew up with or have cultural ties to wok cooking.

I agree with you, but it's not like you can cook in a wok on a normal residental gas stove anyways.

The burners aren't nearly strong enough, nor are people's ventilation systems usually strong enough.

I think of authentic stir fry enthusiasts like I think of Neapolitan pizza enthusiasts -- they can invest in the special equipment. But they don't really have anything to do with average kitchens.

> Neapolitan pizza enthusiasts

Weirdly, the best "pizza appliance" I've found for this is the kamado, which I can get up to about 800 degrees without meaningfully damaging the gaskets (tho I expect it reduces their useful lifespans) - it shouldn't work, because the heat source is in the wrong spot, but it definitely does if you let it rip beforehand and then add the convector plate afterward

Easiest way to do that wok style cooking is outside. Otherwise it's many thousands of dollars for the range and the hood.

My solution was to buy a wok burner. Available online or at Asian restaurant supply stores, they come in propane and natural gas models. My particular one is rated at 130k BTUs. I never take it that high though.

There also exist induction wok burners. They are fitted to round bottom woks. I have no experience with them and assume they are expensive.

Curious how those would work. 100-150k BTUs would be 30k-41k watts, which is a) dramatically more than any of the ones I've seen out there, and b) would presumably deform a carbon steel wok pretty badly? Not sure.

The math definitely isn't as linear as I'd like to be, so I'm super curious to hear how well it works in the real world. Best of luck!

I'm both a foodie, an avid home cook, and an induction fan. I don't miss gas at all for typical western cooking.

I'm also a Kenji Lopez-Alt disciple, and have been getting into wok cooking. I picked up a used 3500 watt gastro induction wok cooker on the cheap, and sadly, yeah, you're right.

I'm considering selling it, and getting a flat-bottomed wok for indoors (I've got a high-end, peak 3700 watt induction stove), and getting a splitter for my outdoor gas tank (for my grill) that also will feed an outdoor wok burner.

I wouldn't want a high-powered gas wok burner inside anyway. I already have to temporarily remove the smoke alarm in my open kitchen / living room just to use the induction burner.

But that's pretty fringe. For standard western style pans, I love induction, and that's the much more common case. It's way less hot in the kitchen, and both the raw power and fast control on my carbon steel pans is very convincing. I love pulling a trick I do where I boil about 1 cm of water in a pan in 20 seconds, pull it off the burner, and immediately put my full palm on the burner, which is barely warm. I've noticed induction is really picking up in haute cuisine in the Michelin starred or near to it kitchens that I visit on a semi-regular basis.

And home and restaurants are really the case that's interesting in terms of reducing emissions.

Maybe you'll have more luck with the flat-bottomed wok than I did, but I wouldn't have your hopes set terribly high

I suspect someone will create an electric wok that you can store in the cupboard and pull out when you want it. No need for gas.

One thing that bums me about the whole air quality conversation is that as much as we talk about the gas stovetops, no one seems to bother about the other things that contribute to poor indoor quality:

1. Gas ovens 2. What you’re cooking. Frying chicken on an induction stovetop is probably going to do more damage to the air quality than gas stoves with industrial exhausts (I have the latter) 3. House layout. This one possibly bothers me the most. There are so many houses with poorly designed ventilation. Replacing stovetops is not going to significantly improve air quality. My open kitchen with really good exhausts are going to have much better air quality with a gas stove than most houses with an electric one. 4. Other household items. Hundreds of other products like cleaning agents still will continue to pollute indoor air with carcinogens but no one will ban them.

1 - Gas ovens go together with gas stoves, it goes without saying. I don't think anybody's using an electric range with a gas oven. Electric ranges go with electric ovens

2 - Frying chicken results in some particulate matter (PM10) but that doesn't seem to be a global warming concern or an asthma concern, and it settles out of the air quickly. But if you have an "industrial exhaust" as you say, all the oil gets sucked out anyways so it doesn't even matter

3 - Poorly designed ventilation is precisely where switching to electric has the biggest benefit, not the smallest, since cooking is the #1 source of indoor particulate matter and CO2

4 - This is why lots of people clean with gentler cleaning products. But they don't seem to contribute to global warming or asthma in the same way from what we know, and most people aren't using crazy harsh cleaning chemicals multiple times daily the way they do the stove, so it seems like a much smaller issue

I have a gas stove and love it, I love to bbq on wood coals, etc..

I still understand how air quality works.

Opening a window when you are combusting indoors is not neuroscience.

The fact that this is "political" is just nuts.

Opening a window isn't enough, for me. I need a powerful fan, too.

Opening a window isn't exactly practical or available in many situations.

And largely unnecessary as most building codes now mandate exhaust and fresh air requirements where gas cookers are fitted.

That's for new buildings.

Most people don't live in new buildings.

Fair enough. Do you think it's easier to add some vent fans or retrofit a building gas->electric in every flat? It's not as easy as it's made out to be. Buildings were designed with sufficient electric service given the utilities available at the time. Buildings with gas have undersized electrics. In other words the service (transformer etc.) is likely inadequate. A massive retrofit from gas to electric cookers would be insanely expensive.

Actually, I think gas->electric is the easier one quite frequently.

Simply because adding vent fans can be a physical impossibility because there's nowhere to vent to. There's more living space on the other side of the wall (in your building or an adjacent building) so you can't vent directly outdoors, and there's no duct so you can't vent anywhere else either.

It's also not necessary. The particulate studies that measured gas stoves as being super dangerous were measured in the most impractical scenarios where the room was sealed off with plastic, and not at all reflective of basically anyone's real home.

Just buy a CO2 sensor and you'll see quickly what the issue with gas stoves is. I have one in front of my gas stove and it takes a lot longer even with ventilation / open windows that you'd think to get back to normal indoor levels.

Seriously. I always thought it was exaggeration until I bought a sensor as well. I was horrified.

A little CO2 isn't harmful at all. Are you thinking of CO?

CO2 is just an easy to measure thing but if CO2 is leaking in to the room, all the other pollutants are too. If your extraction setup was actually working properly you wouldn't notice any change in CO2 in the room.

CO2 is obviously a proxy here indeed, although it is harmful by itself.

This is not “a little CO2”. Buy or rent a sensor, go cooking without the hood set to the proper setting / a window cracked open for long enough, and you’ll be horrified.

I think it's the concern about CO2 emissions that are political.

Yeah, which is nuts.

What's next? Math is political?

I don't know – I'm not the one who doesn't think we should reduce CO2 emissions.

Sorry for the offtopicness but could you please email me at [email protected]? I want to send you a repost invite.

By comparison, the CO2 emissions released by a residential gas cooker is in the noise. Eliminating them all will accomplish very little in the grand scheme of things (whilst industry in China and India continue to pollute on a massive scale).

> ...annual methane emissions from all gas stoves in U.S. homes have a climate impact comparable to the annual carbon dioxide emissions of 500,000 cars. [1]

That doesn't seem like "noise" or "very little" to me. And we don't fix climate change with one big thing but rather by fixing 1,000 smaller things.

This is part of the solution, and it's not too small to ignore.

[1] https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.1c04707

> it's really sad that there seems to be a concerted political effort to take it away.

No such effort exists. The effort is to educate the public about the health risks of indoor combustion cooking and the greenhouse gas emissions associated with natural gas appliances.

If you are referring to the ban on natural gas in new housing in some areas, the vast majority of existing housing in those areas still has natural gas.

From your name I'm assuming you're an aussie? Do you _really_ think bbqs are going away? Do you really think that there is a "concerted political effort", here in Australia, to remove gas stoves?

The picture in the article is of a flat top grill, which I imagine is easier for a restaurant to keep clean. Would gas vs electric matter much to you on a flat top where you aren't moving a pan around?

Can you explain how it is a genuine sensory pleasure – do you mean the actual act of cooking or the taste of the food afterwards?

Gas cooking is very responsive. You can get a similar experience from an induction stove, but the pans have to be much thicker/heavier to get a similar response. Doing a decent stir fry is all but impossible on either induction or standard electric.

Doing a decent stir fry is impossible on standard gas too -- it doesn't put out nearly enough heat.

In terms of standard household appliances, you'll actually get a better stir-fry out of a steel skillet over a modern electric burner, which can put out much more heat than standard gas.

A real authentic stir fry needs a proper wok over a restaurant-strength gas burner though. But nobody has those at home without some customization...

> Doing a decent stir fry is all but impossible on either induction or standard electric.

Not really. Jon Kung makes the positive case for an induction wok better than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooNzRrHA9VY. The usage of the wok precedes the gas burner by.. maybe 1500 years? Cooking on an electric range is just something to get used to.

It really matters to me to see the flame when cooking

Light a candle then

Does this help you when cooking? I'm an OK but not great cook (or so I like to think) and I tend to just think of a hob as a heat source. I guess the main downside of induction is that you can't pick up the pan?

> Cooking on gas stoves is one of the few genuine, sensory pleasures many food-oriented people (myself included) have in life

I’m not asking this to be snarky but:

1) In your entire life?

2) In the entire life of many people?

Name some others then? Not GP but it seems obvious to me that anything about fire or cooking is ranking highly on 'sensory pleasures'. Primeval stuff we can be quite detached from.

I mean I don’t think I need to be crass here but nothing beats the feeling of typing on a mechanical keyboard.

I prepare a meal and eat it. Let's assume I'm eating it alone, to avoid bringing in the pleasures of socialization. Sensory pleasures include: the smell + appearance of the ingredients; cutting vegetables with a well-sharpened knife; the sound of food cooking; the smell of food cooking; the visual enjoyment of the completed food; the visual enjoyment of a well-plated meal; the taste, textures, and smells of the meal; the contrast between the meal and any beverages; the feeling of satisfaction from having eaten a good meal. I would say that most of these are at least as pleasurable as interacting with the flame of a gas stove, and often far more pleasurable.

It was only a few months ago that eliminating gas stoves was a whacky right wing conspiracy theory. Now it's getting rolled out and the narrative shifts to "yes it's true and it's a good thing."

The wacky right-wing conspiracy theory is that "they" were going to come and take gas stoves out of people's homes. This is not happening.

It objectively doesn't matter unless you're using the flame - phulkas blown up directly in the flame or a wok fully engulfed (not merely bottom-heated, however big the ring).

Yeah, screw the climate. Winter sucks anyway, right?

“All I want to do is smoke inside this restaurant - leave me alone to smoke in peace”