News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @04:59AM (#35522568)
Sun Tzu's work was aimed at nobled who had zero experience and knowledge in warfare; a lot of it is low-hanging fruit, but you have to build up the basis for these things like "make sure your soldiers have food" and "don't tell your opponent what you're up to" in these people.

It's why I don't understand why in the US, the president is also the top military commander. I'm sure they have good advisors and the good ones have done their homework, but it's not their profession in the end.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by tialaramex on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @05:40AM (#35522805)
> It's why I don't understand why in the US, the president is also the top military commander.

Somebody has to be in charge of the military. If that person is just someone promoted from within, you're never more than one person's decision from a coup d'etat, "A republic, if you can keep it". So, an elected leader it is.

Of the three branches of the US government, only one is intended to provide an executive function, to decide, in an instant where necessary, without deliberation and compromise. The President. So that's the right person for the job of ultimate military commander, and it's one of the few things about that job which the voters seem to actually have some idea about.

Both the US and UK systems are under-staffed. The UK shares the job of executive leader and legislative leader (very different skill sets) under one role "Prime Minister" - while the US shares the job of executive leader and head of state (a figurehead) which also require totally different skill sets under the role of "President". This would make sense with a very small population, but it's crazy to imagine these huge countries couldn't find two people to do these very different jobs even a little better than one man (and in the US it has always been a man somehow) can do both.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by eru on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:09AM (#35522995)
In Germany the (civilian) defense minister is the head of the armed forces.

(Though I think that role might go to the chancellor in times of war. Not sure.)

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by Sakos on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @07:33AM (#35523594)
According to the wiki, it's the chancellor in wartime (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr). Either way, it's a civilian position that's temporarily filled by the ruling government which was democratically elected.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by eru on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @08:45AM (#35524382)
> Either way, it's a civilian position that's temporarily filled by the ruling government which was democratically elected.

Yes, just like in the US.

My main point was that the chancellor is not the commander in chief by default. Only under exceptional circumstances.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by Xenoamorphous on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @07:59AM (#35523880)
In Spain it’s the King… anachronic af, I know.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by sofixa on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @08:25AM (#35524200)
It's traditionally the head of state, so King makes sense. In Bulgaria the president is mostly a figurehead with very limited power (basically easily repeatable veto, appoint ambassadors and temporary cabinets when there's no active government pending elections), but is still the commander in chief of the armed forces.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by eru on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @08:47AM (#35524396)
In Britain, you have the Royal Navy, Royal Airforce, Royal Marine, but no 'Royal Army'.

That might have something to do with a leftover from the English Civil War. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Model_Army

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by runlaszlorun on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:25AM (#35524803)
Interesting point. I never knew that.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:41AM (#35525855)
The UK = as usual - is a mess of conflicting traditions.

There is no Royal Army, but all members of the armed forces, police, and certain prominent political appointments, swear an Oath of Allegiance to the monarch.

Note this is not to the country. And certainly not to the people. Not even to the Crown, which is a kind of abstract superclass of British monarchs in general.

The Royal Navy does not have to swear this oath. It exists by direct Royal Prerogative which means it's assumed to be loyal, pretty much by definition.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by Earw0rm on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:16AM (#35526350)
The individual regiments are very often royal titled though. "Royal Artillery", "King's Fusiliers" and so on.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by eru on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:32PM (#35534363)
Yes, it's complicated.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by Galacta7 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:19PM (#35534627)
Indeed, my understanding is that the British Army was created by and legally answerable to Parliament, unlike the other armed forces. As you mentioned, a remain of mistrust after the monarch was restored to the throne after the civil war (though the navy did remain under the monarch's control). Also, there are royal units within the Army, but the whole of the army is not regimented in this way.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by ralfd on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @04:13AM (#35536433)
What counts as "war" though? Technically every President since Roosevelt has used military force without a formal declaration of war by Congress. And modern Germany is not a military power projecting hegemon. I can't imagine a civilian defense minister (who in a coalition government maybe isn't even the party of the chancellor) is ordering politically important drone strikes like the US President. If Germany was in similar role the system would quickly evolve that the Chancellor would order the military.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by shakow on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @05:14AM (#35522649)
> the president is also the top military commander

It's also true in quite some other countries, and it is to ensure that the military remains subordinated to the civil government, after the many examples of military coups in History.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by Razengan on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @08:27AM (#35524216)
As if they can't just ignore the civilian commander if they really wanted to?
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by SamBam on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @08:59AM (#35524515)
They can, but you have over a million members of the military who have all sworn an oath that they will "obey the orders of the President of the United States." If they had all sworn an oath that they will "obey the orders of General McEvilFace," it would be a lot easier to maneuver all your coup pawns into place even over the protestations of the president, even without those soldiers needing to fully realize that a coup was being set up.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by js2 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:27AM (#35525639)
I just want to point out that their oath is first to uphold the Constitution, then to the President, then to their officers above them.

https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/swearing-in-for-m...

Americans disagree about a lot, including how to interpret the Constitution and which parts of it are more or less important. But I would really hope that myself and any other random American can at least agree that our Constitution is the rule book that we must all live by and that it is ultimately what binds us as a nation.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by kjs3 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @12:08PM (#35527167)
I agree that's what Americans should agree on, but did you miss the part where certain very prominent Americans have been vocal about how inconvenient the Constitution is and that any provision of it which they disagree with should be 'terminated'? I'm afraid we're not all on the same page wrt the Constitution.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by feoren on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @02:22PM (#35529076)
> did you miss the part where certain very prominent Americans have been vocal about how inconvenient the Constitution is and that any provision of it which they disagree with should be 'terminated'

Those prominent Americans include the original authors of said constitution: they always knew it would be a living document to be modified via amendments. Constitutional "originalists" who believe we should be totally beholden to a 240-year-old document with no changes are the ones who are not following either the spirit or the letter of the constitution.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by kjs3 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @04:31PM (#35531114)
I'm not talking about originalists, and I'm not talking about amending the Constitution through legitimate political process. I'm talking about people who feel that parts of the Constitution that they do not like they simply don't have to follow. That's about as unAmerican as it gets.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by skissane on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @06:24AM (#35537450)
I've never heard anyone seriously defend Trump's "terminate the Constitution" remark - not even Trump supporters. Even his supporters know he talks crap sometimes – one pro-Trump guy I know told me it was one of the things he liked about him.

But to approach the topic with greater seriousness than Donald Trump ever could: throwing out the US Constitution and rewriting it from scratch might actually not be a bad idea. It is one of the oldest national constitutions still in existence, most other nations of equal or greater age have been through at least one complete rewrite in the meantime. Its language is antiquated; it uses a very old-fashioned amendment technique in which amendments are stuck on the end instead of modifying the main text in-place (which is what happens with most other national constitutions).

There is somewhat of consensus among political scientists that the presidential system used by the US and most of Latin America is inferior to the parliamentary system in terms of political stability. In fact, compared to Latin America, the US seems to have got rather lucky – avoiding many of the downsides of presidentialism in practice, in particular its tendency to produce caudillos – but is caudillo Trump a sign that America's luck is finally running out? Why not become a parliamentary republic, as in Ireland, Malta, Germany, Austria, Israel, Finland, etc? Prime Minister of the United States of America?

Of course, terminating the Constitution in that sense need not be done by a military coup – it could be done using the current amendment process, just with a mega-amendment to repeal and replace the whole thing. And maybe's that's all Trump meant. Or maybe Trump actually did mean a coup. Or maybe a bit of both. Or maybe even, Trump himself doesn't know what he meant, and doesn't care either.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by Galacta7 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:24PM (#35534661)
It's interesting that this shared allegiance to the Constitution was still strained to the breaking point 160+ years ago. I wonder how U.S. military leaders must have felt when huge swaths of the military (and military leaders) decided that bond was no longer strong enough for them to maintain their loyalty to it.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by shakow on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:59AM (#35525254)
They can, of course, but it's harder for coup-ing superior officers to make dozen of thousands of 20y.o. Grunty McGruntFace follow them to overthrow the government when the very oath they swore was to that government, and that this oath explicitly states they don't have to follow General von Teufel orders in this case.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by mountainb on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @05:58AM (#35522926)
They're not, really. The way that you advise the president on military issues is you give them prepackaged "decisions" that are limited variations on the same choice. The president's authority over the military is a legal fiction much like many other legal fictions that keep the system going.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by dragonwriter on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:37AM (#35523194)
> The president's authority over the military is a legal fiction

No, its not; and its kind of odd to say that during the era when not omly does the President fully exercise that power, they have for all practical purposes had it augmented by delegation (substantively on paper, and even more broadly in practice) of Congress’ power to declare war.

It’s true that most Presidents don’t micromanage the military, but they very much do command it, and a power generally used with some discretion and reserve is not the same as a legal fiction.

But the important thing about the President’s Commander-in-Chief role is not that it is a power (though it is), but that it is a constraint on the Congressional power to orgabize and set rules for the military.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by ch33zer on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:37AM (#35523197)
I can guarantee you that there have been times where the top military brass walked into a meeting with the president with 3 options and left with an order to come up with something better. I have no insider knowledge but at the end of the day the president has the final say. Now I don't know how frequently the president overrides his military advisers but it must happen.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by caf on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @08:16AM (#35524073)
For an extreme version of this, see Truman relieving Gen. Douglas MacArthur of his command during the Korean War.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by trashtester on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:26AM (#35524821)
Not only that, but it's not like the head of state is alone with the military brass in such meetings. There will be people there both from the permanent civilian bureaucracy as well as advisors of some type from the party in power.

Ultimately, military grand strategy is a domain of politics as much as it is about how to wage war. The agendas and objectives are ultimately continuations of political goals of whoever is in power. During a war, the fighting must be coordinated with diplomacy, economy/trade/manufacturing and public relations/propaganda, all of which generals tend to know little about.

And even if the President is not the one making the micro decisions, he/she definitely is responsible for making sure the war is waged in a way that is aligned with the general objectives of the administration.

This means defining objectives, access to resources as well as defining the rules of engagement. And equally importantly, listen to the military and determine when the time is right to actually provide additional resources or permissions, despite political costs.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by eru on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:10AM (#35523006)
That's true in practice. So in theory, if the president wants things badly enough, he can keep push harder and also keep firing and hiring people until he gets what he wants.

Of course, that style is a lot harder, and thus consumes a lot more limited attention.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by runlaszlorun on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:08AM (#35524595)
Perhaps. But it does prevent Latin America (and elsewhere) style military rule.

Instead we get military generals who act more like politicians the more senior they get (proven by study). And it seems that often politicians with little to lose and a lot to prove are often more hawkish than the military around them (Hilary Clinton, Wolfowitz, et al).

But, you know, tradeoffs…

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by jimbokun on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:30AM (#35524880)
And the President can always fire their asses if he feels like he isn't getting good counsel.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by indymike on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:51AM (#35525124)
> The president's authority over the military is a legal fiction

Having served in the US Navy, this statement could not be more wrong. All command authority is delegated from the President, full stop.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by detourdog on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @06:21AM (#35523086)
A civilian leads the country and soldiers lead armies.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by jones6ofMont on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @08:16AM (#35524079)
Situation is even worst. In USA now , Joe is top military commander. I couldnt even understand his speech most of the time. I am guessing the generals will be equally confused as well.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @08:56AM (#35524485)
"Commander", yes, but they command very little. During World War II, President Roosevelt gave exactly two direct commands to the military - that they had to divert 50 long-range bombers to help protect Atlantic convoys, and that North Africa be invaded in 1942. In a four-year-long war, he gave two commands. Contrast that with Hitler, who micromanaged his military, and did them no good by doing so.

So, yes, he does have final command (subject to "legal orders" and similar restrictions). But he's not commanding in the normal sense of a military commander.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by jcranmer on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:14AM (#35524661)
> It's why I don't understand why in the US, the president is also the top military commander. I'm sure they have good advisors and the good ones have done their homework, but it's not their profession in the end.

War is ultimately a political endeavor; the goal of a war is to compel, by use of military force, some sort of political objective. It only makes sense then that the person in charge of directing when and where that military force is used is also the person who is empowered to carry out the political policy of the entire country.

For people who rise to the top of the military from within, every political problem becomes a nail in want of the military hammer for a solution, and thus the default answer to every crisis tends to become war. The Cuban Missile Crisis was defused without a war because both Kennedy and Khrushchev couldn't bring themselves to push the button marked nuclear war, while virtually the entire military establishment was convinced, and forcefully arguing, that the only way out of the situation was to be the first to push that button.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by runlaszlorun on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:24AM (#35524784)
I’m not sure about the “military hammer for a solution”. At least not these days. Sure there are some- Wesley Clark’s push into Kosovo seemed suspect to me at the time. But there are many of the Colin Powell types who resist these unnecessary entanglements.

I wouldn’t be surprised if back in the Grenada/Panama era of the 80’s that there may have been many chomping at the bit. These days, I’m guessing not so much.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by Gud on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:43AM (#35525017)
Not sure why you are using Colin Powell as an example. He’s one of the worst stooges, helping both covering up the My Lai massacre and presenting false evidence for the UN regarding the Iraqi WMDs.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by runlaszlorun on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @11:02PM (#35550368)
I’ve never heard about Powell and My Lai. Feel free to point me in the right direction.

As to Iraq and WMDs, you could prob call him a “stooge” if you wanted to. But the little I know from a distance, that was something that racked his conscience for the rest of his life.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by hindsightbias on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:55AM (#35526957)
A relative told me in the 70's that I never had to worry about WW III until Yugoslavia disintegrates after Tito dies. He said all the realistic war plans revolved around that, which is why all the NATO cadres were all hysterical in the 90s.

Grenada, they never had time to think about it - it took three days for the most mighty military in the world to secure one of the tiniest nations in the world.

After 9/11, Rumsfeld asked the Army for their plans. They gave him a stack of plans on occupying Afghanistan and requirement for 600K troops (per doctrine) - they had no intention of volunteering. He was furious to be sidelined when the CIA guy convinced W it could all be done with small teams and airpower.

For Iraq, Rumsfeld agreed to all their plans and they saluted happily when he said to not make any occupation plans...

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by indymike on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:46AM (#35525063)
> It's why I don't understand why in the US, the president is also the top military commander.

Simple: the founders of the US thought it would protect our democracy to ensure that a elected civilian was in charge of the military. It's mostly worked.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by jeltz on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:54AM (#35525172)
Isn't there an even simpler answer? Back then most countries had their king ad their top military commander and the president of the US had a very similar role to a king.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by indymike on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:59AM (#35525247)
> Isn't there an even simpler answer?

Nope. There's a lot of writing about this issue from various founding fathers. There was great desire to avoid the President appearing to be a king or turning into one.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by giraffe_lady on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @11:52AM (#35526911)
But it was still the model they were working from, the way of organizing state power that they understood and were familiar with. The three branches gov is in a lot of ways a secular and formalized form of the constraints religious and aristocratic political influence had on european monarchy in the era just preceding the revolution.

Plus what they say they wanted to achieve is not necessarily what they did achieve. That's not to say they failed and the president is a king, but the president is not entirely un-king-like either.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by indymike on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @12:13PM (#35527245)
> That's not to say they failed and the president is a king, but the president is not entirely un-king-like either.

Since a king is literally all of the functions of government, there is really no way to argue that any part of a government isn't somewhat king like.

In the US, the Judiciary with lifetime appointments and review power was always viewed as the most king-like.

Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by version_five on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @09:52AM (#35525138)

  It's why I don't understand why in the US, the president is also the top military commander. I'm sure they have good advisors and the good ones have done their homework, but it's not their profession in the end.
Because technocracy is an awful form of government. In s democracy the buck has to stop with a politician, otherwise its tyranny.
Re:Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) by retrac on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @10:42AM (#35525862)
In Canada, the commander in chief is the Governor General, an appointed vanity position usually given to academics or journalists, etc.

I'm pretty sure no independent military decision has not been made by a GG since the 19th century. Policy is given by the Prime Minister with the cabinet, and actually carried out by the high-ranking generals. Things have gone terribly wrong if the Governor General is actually giving their own military orders. The position is symbolic, representing the Crown, and thus the state's, ultimate authority over the military.