News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by superposeur on Sunday April 09, 2023 @06:38PM (#35507173)
This is easily Sabine Hoffstader’s fringiest video. Please don’t get the wrong idea that this is a point of controversy within physics! As a physicist I’d estimate 99.9% of her colleagues would disagree and I would too. She has no real argument, just vaguely gestures at “maybe the comoving frame makes relativity invalid” and then vaguely gestures at “quantum gravity spoiling everything we know so far about physics”.

As to the second point, quantum gravity is a thing but almost certainly will not upend the special relativistic account of the large scale causal ordering of events. This is for the same reason that it almost certainly won’t change the calculation of the amount of time it takes an apple to drop from a tree —- within the domain of validity of the old theory, its predictions will agree.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by elcritch on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:00PM (#35507304)
Well then again theoretical physics was dominated by "string theory" for decades despite a lack of any physical or experimental evidence, so we should take consensus about speculative physics with a grain of salt. This sort of speculation is precisely what physicists should be doing, within measure. At least Sabine appears to recognize her "out there" aspect, unlike say the string theorists that stifled physics for decades. At worse maybe she'll annoy another theoretician to analytically disprove her.

That said of course whatever quantum gravity would bring it'll need to reduce to match known physics. However at the fringes of known physics what will happen as you get nearer to the singularities in special relativity? Generally speaking in the past singularities in physics have been due to incomplete knowledge of the physics in these regions.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by superposeur on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:30PM (#35507508)
Yes, at the fringes of known physics, as you say. My point is that this question is not at the fringes known physics. Earth and Alpha Centauri are not near the singularity of a black hole and special relativity is perfectly adequate to predict that events now on Earth will take some time to influence events on Alpha Centauri.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by singularity2001 on Monday April 10, 2023 @08:26AM (#35511465)
Since Sabine Hoffstader labeled the whole string theory (and some particle accelerator physics) as unscientific she shouldn't engage in the very fringes she appalls.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by taylodl on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:17AM (#35513357)
Both String Theory and Brane Theory have been shown to yield equivalent results to the Standard Model (QFT). Nowadays physicists choose the model yielding the simplest computation for the problem at hand. No contradictions have been found after years of doing this.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by Valgrim on Monday April 10, 2023 @01:22PM (#35514738)
So you're saying they're the same theory disguised as different, or another facet of the same solid, only useful as a computational shortcut. Maybe it's time to look for contradictions?
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by taylodl on Monday April 10, 2023 @03:23PM (#35516273)
I'm not a physicist, just a knowledgable enthusiast. To your point, people are trying to look for contradictions. So far, none have been found. Physicists therefore use the model that simplifies the computation. If a contradiction is ever found then that will provide information as to which model is correct.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by nextaccountic on Monday April 10, 2023 @03:34PM (#35516408)
Isn't that just because there are enough free parameters that can be plugged in to make string theory agree with the standard model?
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by flangola7 on Monday April 10, 2023 @05:16PM (#35517497)
What is wrong with string theory?
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by planck01 on Wednesday April 12, 2023 @04:11AM (#35536416)
Some issues that string theory has:

- We have not found any evidence for it.

- Some predictions have been made from it that weren't found (e.g. no supersymmetric particles in the LHC).

- It can be tuned to fit almost fit any universe and any observation, which doesn't really make it scientific.

- The reasons for inventing it might have been misguided or flawed. (universe must be beautiful / simple / etc).

The lack of results are turning a growing part of the scientific community off, while there is still a core amount of scientists holding on to it.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by ftxbro on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:07PM (#35507352)
> As a physicist I’d estimate 99.9% of her colleagues would disagree and I would too.

What would be your estimate of disagreement with her other takes?

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by superposeur on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:48PM (#35507600)
Hard to say, but other videos I've seen are in areas where things are genuinely murkier; for instance, the status of fine-tuning arguments and the interpretation of quantum mechanics. Not so for this video, which is settled territory (and presents no extraordinary counter evidence). Generally, I do enjoy her off-kilter takes.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by snapplebobapple on Monday April 10, 2023 @12:34PM (#35514184)
If she was wrong all it would take is one......
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by comboy on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:07PM (#35507354)
No argument? She has shown that within widely accepted theory FTL could be possible. You need to poke a hole in that to say that she has no real argument. I think many physicist may dismiss it as, well, yes, given certain assumptions.. but it's a really good argument.

Personally my biggest question would be why didn't we observe anything FTL in the Universe yet. But it could be, just like with many scientific discoveries, what has been a great data point has been dismissed as some measurement problem.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by superposeur on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:36PM (#35507545)
The form of argument "maybe X invalidates theory Y, so we shouldn't trust prediction of Y" isn't terribly useful since it could be applied to any prediction of science; "Maybe quantum gravity so let's not worry about conservation of energy." "Maybe comoving frame, so maybe we can build antigravity devices", etc. Of course, it could be true. Most anything could be true. It's just not a useful basis for adjusting one's priors.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by voxl on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:24AM (#35513448)
Actually it is. There is no good reason scientists should all follow the same course of action. In fact, per your own appeal to statistical reasoning, such reasoning is only meaningful if you have an actualization of the samples. If no scientists ever try the unlikely scenarios then you will always reach local optimum.

What is at stake is "Some scientists should consider FTL travel possible, and give it a go." for such a statement, the argument definitely holds water.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by Maursault on Sunday April 09, 2023 @09:32PM (#35508255)
> Personally my biggest question would be why didn't we observe anything FTL in the Universe yet.

If something was FTL, and we need light to see things, how could anything FTL be seen, as light could not move fast enough to reach it then reach our eyes. Further, assuming we could travel FTL, while traveling we'd be nearly blind, and anything we did see wouldn't make any sense.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by comboy on Monday April 10, 2023 @04:32AM (#35510302)
Imagine a triangle from points A B C. If I'm at C, and I know distance between A and B, then if something is at A then at B and I measure time between these events in my frame of reference..
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by havnagiggle on Monday April 10, 2023 @09:05AM (#35511794)
I just saw a fun YouTube video on this: https://youtu.be/vFNgd3pitAI (at 13m). I don't know how sound their reasons are, but it seems pretty well put together.

Basically you'd see the same thing from multiple locations, as the light emitted closest to you will hit you at the same time light emitted in the past from further away reaches you. It would construct as two objects going in opposite directions.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by sublinear on Monday April 10, 2023 @10:16AM (#35512582)
I don't know much about physics, but cameras take pictures of things faster than their shutter speed all the time. What occurs is blurring and bright spots.

Just because something is moving faster than the speed of light doesn't mean the light reflected from it never reaches our eyes.

I think another way to perceive it is as if you have a buffer that is beginning to overflow because you can't empty it faster than the speed of light. That overflow is how I'd imagine you'd detect FTL objects. It's like the visual equivalent of a sonic boom. Again idk what I'm talking about, but it was nice to think about :)

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by CorrectHorseBat on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:37AM (#35513607)
Yet we have no problem hearing things going faster than sound
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by dreamcompiler on Monday April 10, 2023 @10:25AM (#35512699)
> Personally my biggest question would be why didn't we observe anything FTL in the Universe yet.

We have observed at least one FTL phenomenon -- sort of. We know entangled particles communicate with each other FTL because of the Bell inequality. We just don't have any influence on what message they communicate (and we probably never will).

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by ndsipa_pomu on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:17AM (#35513355)
Isn't it just due to specific interpretations of QM that particles communicate? The Many-Worlds interpretation (also pilot-wave theories) wouldn't require any FTL communication between particles.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by ActorNightly on Monday April 10, 2023 @12:17PM (#35514016)
All of the arguments for it being possible are essentially equivalent to "it could be that we are all just a simulation program, and within that program its possible to pause/change properties/unpause and make something appear as FTL travel within the simulation".

This could be the case in reality. But its utterly useless information, because it doesn't really give you a direction in which you can even begin to investigate it. Saying that something is possible in this regard is saying that our knowledge of our reality has holes, and "anything" can be in those holes, nothing about the specifics of what could be in those holes.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by cuteboy19 on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:20PM (#35507429)
I suppose she's just saying possible in the sense that it's not impossible. She's not saying it's probable
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by hgsgm on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:54PM (#35507627)
Yeah, it's possible to modify physical theory in a way that is compatible with our current bounded observations, that allows FTL with higher energies then ever controlled or perhaps ever practical to create.

One of SH's hobbyhorses is that the Universe has no obligation to conform to the most elegant symmetrical theory. (See C/P/T symmetries.)

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by cuteboy19 on Sunday April 09, 2023 @10:52PM (#35508708)
She's not saying that it should be possible, only that we shouldn't automatically rule it out based on a theory that we already know to be incomplete
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by ImPostingOnHN on Monday April 10, 2023 @01:55AM (#35509558)
it is reasonable to "rule out" (read: effectively treat as not true, see Russel's Teapot) any theory which lacks sufficient evidence to treat it with any greater weight
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by MattPalmer1086 on Monday April 10, 2023 @05:00AM (#35510439)
I agree with you.

I enjoyed her talk. She pointed out the subtle flaws in the commonly held view that the speed of light is an absolute limit.

At no point does she say this means it is not a limit, only that this conclusion is not fully warranted from the theory we have now, which we also know to be incomplete.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by layer8 on Monday April 10, 2023 @10:02AM (#35512419)
That’s vacuously true, though. Nothing is strictly impossible, from a Bayesian perspective.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by ShamelessC on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:17AM (#35513354)
Some of the best science ever done is through that lens though. Cantor's work on cardinality, relativity, bioelectric networks (more recently). Sometimes it's important to revisit the foundational priors your structures are relying on and make sure they're as sturdy as you remember/your peers are telling you.

That isn't to say that Hossenfelder's bold prediction is necessarily true. But that by double-checking the rudiments themselves, we might find _better_ rudiments.

Consider the axiom of choice. We know it can't be constructed from ZF alone, and so we just throw it in sometimes. But - ZF's axioms are constructed for practical purposes as well. While they are taken as basic principles, they have been carefully studied and analyzed to avoid inconsistencies and paradoxes. The axioms provide a stable foundation for set theory that has effectively served as the groundwork for modern mathematics. But that is a construct made from necessity for rigor - not necessity for the "true" model.

That last bit about "true" models delves into philosophy territory. But the point isn't that Hossenfelder is right or wrong. It's that studying these rudiments and finding holes in them can sometimes be the correct place to go looking for new theory.

And also, I think it's abundantly clear from her tone and choice of words that her bold "prediction" is designed to get you thinking about this stuff in that frame of mind and not something she would actually bet millions on. If I had to guess, she probably feels more akin to Knuth does on P vs NP - that if P does equal NP, it will still have no bearing in practice for other quite interesting reasons.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by revscat on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:31PM (#35507509)
Yes, I am sure that 99% of your colleagues would agree with you. But modern astrophysics seems to be stuck in a rut, wasting decades on string theory, and now steadfastly determined that no advancements beyond relativity quantum mechanics can ever be accomplished. Even discussing such is met with disdain, dismissiveness, and ridicule.

And absolute confidence that this is the correct take.

Now, I understand that the experimental evidence underpinning modern astrophysics is very, very sound. But if that is truly the end, and no further discoveries of any note are ever to be had beyond Solvay 1927… well, perhaps the modern astrophysics community should just collectively hang it up and start a landscaping business.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by Mistletoe on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:35PM (#35507538)
They could always switch fields to where we need help. People are still dying from cancer and Covid won’t be the last pandemic the human race encounters. We also need plumbers and air conditioner repairmen.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by ianburrell on Sunday April 09, 2023 @09:08PM (#35508095)
String theory is not astrophysics but particle physics.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by taylodl on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:28AM (#35513500)
Wasting decades on String Theory? We've learned String Theory and Brane Theory both yield the same results as the Standard Model (QFT). Nowadays physicists use the model that makes the computations easiest for the problem at hand.

My own thoughts as a well-learned armchair physicist is GR is the wrong model and Einstein's field equations aren't the right model allowing us to include gravity in QFT. This is what most actual physicists believe, and for good reason. Of course it's entirely possible that QFT is also the wrong model and we need a completely different model from everything we have today in order to form a theory of everything. That's what String Theory and Brane Theory attempted to do. The problem being is thus far the new models don't predict any different results than does the existing model - they all appear to be equivalent. But you can't know that unless you tried, so it's not a waste of time.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by bmacho on Sunday April 09, 2023 @07:36PM (#35507547)
> Please don’t get the wrong idea that this is a point of controversy within physics! As a physicist I’d estimate 99.9% of her colleagues would disagree and I would too.

I am pretty sure 99.9% of her colleagues won't state that "this is impossible" when presented a consistent model. Why would they? Why do you do that?

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by superposeur on Sunday April 09, 2023 @08:16PM (#35507754)
Because she doesn’t present a consistent model or indeed any model at all.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by bmacho on Sunday April 09, 2023 @09:08PM (#35508091)
Also please note, that either relativity or quantum (or both) is total wrong.

None of the laws and equations hold quantitatively, also the basic objects do not exist, and the basic axioms don't hold either. All of the qualitative results, conservation laws, negative laws that forbid things are total useless.

There is a chance that relativity is wrong, there is no spacetime, there are no frames, E, m and c are useless numbers, and albeit they are definable and measurable, E=mc^2 never ever holds. (< or > holds instead)

Or the same can happen with quantum, there are no states, you can't add states together, Dirac equation never ever holds quantitatively, etc etc.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by i-use-nixos-btw on Sunday April 09, 2023 @09:53PM (#35508373)
It’s quite rare for a theory to be dismantled so thoroughly that we look back on it and say “oops, all of that was just coincidence”. Rather, the existing theory is a special case of the one that replaces it.

For instance, Newtonian physics wasn’t demolished by Einstein et al. It was refined, such that Newtonian physics applies very well in scenarios and scales that we would consider ordinary.

But you are completely right. When the theories are unified then people could very well be saying “you can’t just add these states together”, just like I’d often say that when talking about adding speeds together (it doesn’t convince the traffic officer). What I do think, though, is that a perfectly good response to that will be “ah, yes, that isn’t a problem though because this isn’t in the presence of a magnetic, rotating, supermassive black hole with a funny hat on, so the flopookle correction we learned about in physics 201 is negligible”

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by hilbert42 on Monday April 10, 2023 @10:35AM (#35512840)
"Please don’t get the wrong idea that this is a point of controversy within physics!"

I was a little surprised by her comment but perhaps generating controversy is her actual point. It seems to me that with the long-standing and seemingly insurmountable gulf between QM and GR there needs to be more controversy—not less.

I've always considered >c discussions and arguments speculative and hypothetical and my view hasn't changed but with the QM/GR elephant in the room perhaps it's time to remind ourselves of a similar controversy. When Galileo proposed his controversial theory that likely >99.9℅ of the establishment was against him or thought him crazy.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by PrufferFrish on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:55AM (#35513794)
I don't have anything to add to the topic, but I wanted to ask you about your usage of this character: ℅

Obviously, you meant to use the percent sign (%), but instead have used the "care of" sign (℅). This is the second time in a month I've seen this error, and I'm curious how it can occur.

I did just notice that it's possible to type it on an Android keyboard by long pressing the percent sign. That seems challenging to do by accident. I'm curious if there's another way to easily type it by accident.

Screenshot: https://ibb.co/YdGKwZd

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by hilbert42 on Monday April 10, 2023 @02:40PM (#35515765)
Thank you for pointing that mistake out, I just didn't notice it (the phone is set to small font).

The message was sent from the same Android phone I'm using now. Moreover, I'm still not sure how it happened because the KB app I'm using is OpenBoard and its long-press is '‰'.

I'm curious too because OpenBoard only has the one long-press option (as above) unlike GBoard which has two—the first being '‰' and the second the "care of" sign. Trouble is that GBoard is normally disabled [not just deselected] on this phone and I had to re-enable it to check.

I've noticed occasionally that I've had 'strange' characters appear that do not seem to be long-presses when I've been typing in a hurry so there must be some option for selecting them that I'm unaware of.

It's late here now so I'll investigate later and get back to you when or if I find the answer.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by hilbert42 on Monday April 10, 2023 @07:49PM (#35518864)
Well, I've looked again and I'm not much further ahead. OpenBoard's help docs are essentially nonexistent, it assumes a standard AOSP Android keyboard so help shouldn't be necessary but there are differences compared with Google's GBoard. Incidentally, my reason for using OpenBoard is that it doesn't spy on one like Google's GBoard.

The only way I can see to get the "care of" character, '℅', in OpenBoard is to use the number toggle and then select the alternate list of characters. As I said this is different to GBoard which allows one the choice between '‰' and '℅' in its long-press of the percent key.

In summary I can't see how I could have entered it from the keyboard without toggling the complete change of characters for the keyboard layout I was using and I don't think I did that—but then I must have. Either that or it's the result of spurious characters arising from hitting multiple keys at once that I mentioned in my last comment.

I hope that helps but I'm still not satisfied with what I've found for the reason that I often want to use Unicode characters that are not on the default keys and I'd to extend that list but it doesn't seem possible. At present, my only solution is to use a separate Unicode app to drop the character in and that's a bit of a pain.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by henrydark on Monday April 10, 2023 @01:16PM (#35514655)
What controversial theory did Galileo propose?
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by hilbert42 on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @01:04AM (#35521058)
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by taylodl on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:14AM (#35513318)
I think Dr. Hoffstader enjoys making these controversial, click-bait videos. They probably go a long way toward paying the bills! She is well-aware that until we reconcile GR and QFT then we don't have the final word on anything. Even so, we've yet to observe anything traveling faster than the vacuum speed of light - and we've been looking!
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by pieter_mj on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:17AM (#35513353)
It's Sabine Hossenfelder but I get the mistake.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by naikrovek on Monday April 10, 2023 @12:27PM (#35514111)
> I get the mistake.

I don't.

Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by bogdanstanciu on Monday April 10, 2023 @12:33PM (#35514172)
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by naikrovek on Monday April 10, 2023 @01:25PM (#35514793)
ah, now I get it. sorta.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by GistNoesis on Monday April 10, 2023 @01:44PM (#35515008)
I would have guessed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Hofstadter fictional character of the TV show Big Bang Theory that usually attract physics enthusiasts, but your guess is better.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by throwaway81523 on Monday April 10, 2023 @04:41PM (#35517143)
I thought of Robert Hofstadter, who won the Nobel physics prize in 1961 and was Douglas Hofstadter's father.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by taylodl on Monday April 10, 2023 @05:19PM (#35517516)
I did not know that!
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by taylodl on Monday April 10, 2023 @03:28PM (#35516343)
Yes. That's who I get her confused with. Gödel, Escher, Bach was an incredible book for me to read early on in my career.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by low_tech_love on Tuesday April 11, 2023 @01:18AM (#35521135)
I love how OP made the mistake and then everyone repeated it! I wonder if that indicates something.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by martincmartin on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:16AM (#35513341)
There's a sense in which worm holes allow information to travel faster than light. However, since the worm hole itself has a reference frame, you can't use it to create a grandfather paradox.
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by wruza on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:25AM (#35513458)
Why Hofstader, isn’t she Hossenfelder?
Re:Sabine Hossenfelder: I think faster than light travel is ... by WithinReason on Monday April 10, 2023 @11:40AM (#35513639)
* * *