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Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by fsckboy on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:08PM (#35381528)
> Nearly the entire point of the United States at its founding was that the law should apply to political leaders.

I think that's overstated.

First of all, it was the Magna Carta which established that the king was not above the law, so in that sense the founding of the United States was more "and we don't need a king".

Second, there are frequently legal discussions in the present day as to whether a sitting president can be charged with a crime, so there is at least a substantial idea that there is some "sovereign immunity" (quotes because that's not what sovereign immunity refers to)

Third, the founders were also well aware of the threat of political motives for prosecutions and wanted to diminish them with various balance of power checks and balances.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by dmix on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:27PM (#35381692)
This also happened before he was a sitting president, so all the stuff about “Bush Iraq war crimes” and “Nixon’s burglary” and similar historical presidential baggage is mostly irrelevant, at least in terms of new precedent.

The social/civil consequences of this sort of criminal indictment before election is enough to kill a presidential campaign and has enough times in history. As it should be.

This is behaviour before/after presidency when the stakes are far lower.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by dukeofdoom on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:43PM (#35381824)
Doesn't that just give over power to prosecutors to pick who you get to vote for?
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by norwalkbear on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:48PM (#35381851)
Exactly, the hidden point is some people hate Trump so much they would destroy everything in the USA to destroy him.

They will get their wish.Desantis just came out said he won't assist extradition so come and get him

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by gaganyaan on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:28AM (#35382560)
I almost wish HN had emoji reactions for comments. Upvote/downvote doesn't quite cut it when what this comment really needs is just an eyeroll emoji, possibly paired with "OK Boomer".
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by phone8675309 on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:55PM (#35381913)
Yes - look at Comey's comments about butter emails that severely damaged Hilary Clinton's electoral chances.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by otterley on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:10AM (#35382850)
I think you mean "influence elections" - "picking who[m] you get to vote for" is quite a stretch.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by vkou on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:11AM (#35382865)
The alternative is a country where political candidates are not bound by the rule of law.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by brewdad on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:28AM (#35383417)
Just in case, I am hereby declaring my candidacy for the President of the United States for the upcoming election and all future elections in my lifetime.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by norwalkbear on Friday March 31, 2023 @09:11AM (#35386615)
Same here but the trick is also being popular.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by norwalkbear on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:52PM (#35381888)
No your opinion isn't fact. Donald Trump danger is the fact he's beloved by base in way that could rip the country apart in way beyond Nixon or Bush.

Everything for his indictment needed to be kosher and it isn't. Many top democrats are fuming over this.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by dmix on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:55PM (#35381908)
Yes everything is different right now and all precedent and apprehensive reactions should be disregarded - aka what every single hysterical partisan in history has said.

Don’t worry… we’ll be okay whatever happens. It’s never as bad as what the FUD pushers wished would happen (“feared” would be the wrong word here).

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by norwalkbear on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:55PM (#35381918)
Except we handed Trump 2024 on a silver platter
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by daveguy on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:38AM (#35382638)
Nah.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by kcplate on Thursday March 30, 2023 @11:11PM (#35382022)
In terms of tearing the country apart…I think you need to separate the nut jobs who idolize Trump from the right leaning folks who simply supported Trump mainly because he was on their side of the line and frankly not an elderly democrat who was a punchline before he became “The Alternative”.

The nut jobs will create problems, the others will complain but not act. Overall the others far outweigh the nut jobs.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by norwalkbear on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:08AM (#35382434)
It's not 2016 anymore. civil war and the great divorce is mainstream
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by kcplate on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:15AM (#35382473)
I’m in the heart of Trump country and I guarantee the number trump flags flying and MAGA hat wearing ain’t what it used to be around me. I definitely don’t see the same levels of Trump adulation now.

Frankly even some hardcore supporters I know are tired of his shtick and lean DeSantis.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by bbarnett on Friday March 31, 2023 @10:23AM (#35387602)
No sure what you fully mean here, but the 60s/70s, and the civil disobedience at the time, make all current stuff, BLM, the protests, seem tiny in comparison.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by MisterBastahrd on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:27AM (#35382552)
What isn't kosher about it?

Trump is being indicted by a grand jury, not the DA. Half the people in his orbit have done time in prison for committing crimes that just happened to benefit him.

Many top Democrats are fuming?

Name them.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by stuckinhell on Thursday March 30, 2023 @11:03PM (#35381972)
Trump is a fundamentally different player than Bush or Nixon. They were establishment in times the establishment wasn't nearly as hated as it is now.

This just plays to Trump's strength as the ultimate rebel.

In terms of game theory, this is a very different game than Nixon or Bush. Trump annihilated the Bush Legacy, and is hated by both sides of the establishment.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by bayesian_horse on Friday March 31, 2023 @10:17AM (#35387504)
Trump is part of "the establishment" himself. And that he can bullshit people like you into believing otherwise is part of his superpower as a lifelong pathologic liar.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by googlerx on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:36AM (#35383044)
At least some of the legally problematic reimbursement payments to Cohen happened while he was president.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by zarzavat on Thursday March 30, 2023 @10:55PM (#35381919)
Just to clarify. The King of the UK is above criminal law. The monarch of the UK cannot be arrested or charged with an offence, or be personally involved in criminal proceedings.

That is similar to the immunity given to the sitting US President. What is different is that monarch is not really expected to obey the law either. For example, the Prime Minister was fined for illegally not wearing a seatbelt. If the king didn’t wear a seatbelt, it would not be a big deal - the royal family freely ignore traffic laws (and more serious laws) without consequences. Queen Elizabeth did agree to start paying taxes, but there was never any suggestion that she be compelled to pay taxes, merely that it would be the right thing to do.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by michaelbarton on Thursday March 30, 2023 @11:41PM (#35382239)
All good points. A small note though I believe the Queen started paying taxes in exchange for the state’s help rebuilding Windsor caste after the 92 fire. So seems more quid pro quo than something she felt was the right thing to do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Windsor_Castle_fire

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by youngtaff on Friday March 31, 2023 @03:05AM (#35383655)
Still didn’t pay inheritance tax on her personal wealth though

There are also all the laws the monarch / monarch’s lawyers interfered with e.g. police can’t enter Sandringham Estate without an invite, leaseholders on the Duchy of Cornwall are excluded from buying their freehold

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by mulmen on Saturday April 01, 2023 @02:36AM (#35397756)
Nobody cares until to revolt. You’re centuries behind any other democracy.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by youngtaff on Saturday April 01, 2023 @03:54AM (#35398203)
Indeed
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by youngtaff on Saturday April 01, 2023 @03:54AM (#35398201)
Funny how some people down vote facts…
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by jameshart on Friday March 31, 2023 @12:55AM (#35382759)
On the flip side... England did actually arrest, try and convict the King once. Also did the same to an ex-queen, in Lady Jane Grey. After first having un-queened her, which is also a thing that cannot be done.

The thing about Britain's constitutional arrangements is that there are many things which 'can't' be done, which it turns out simply 'aren't' done.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by brewdad on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:25AM (#35383399)
So very similar to the US then. It's not that an incoming Governor of the opposition party can't be stripped of executive power it's just that no one had done it until recently.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by DanHulton on Friday March 31, 2023 @02:45AM (#35383531)
I mean, that's really true of any sort of law or political arrangement. They can all be broken or ignored. To mangle a quote, the law isn't power - power is power.
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by touristtam on Friday March 31, 2023 @01:07AM (#35382838)
This short article gives a better explanation than I could ever give at this hour of the morning: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/14/what-does-qu...

What is sovereign immunity?

Sovereign immunity is a centuries-old doctrine dictating that the monarch cannot be prosecuted or subject to civil legal action under the law. Its origin lies in doctrine and convention, rather than statute, and there is no law setting out the rules underpinning the concept.

It stems partly from the medieval concept that the monarch is the source of justice, and can therefore do no wrong. It also relies on an argument that because the courts belong to the Queen she cannot be compelled to appear in them, since she would, in effect, be prosecuting herself.

Since at least 1800, the monarch has also had a legally distinct private persona, created to allow them to have independent wealth and property that could be inherited by their children. However, the lines between the two are somewhat blurred, and sovereign immunity has typically been interpreted to apply to both the public and private identities of the monarch.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by kzrdude on Friday March 31, 2023 @04:44AM (#35384320)
That the king is above criminal law does not directly dispute the Magna Carta thread of this conversation.

We take it for granted now, but it was a beginning of constitutional order - king and government should follow certain laws and rules for how to run the country. And the UK is after all a constitutional monarchy, no longer at mercy to the whims of an autocratic monarch.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by thisGuyFlicks on Friday March 31, 2023 @07:57AM (#35385693)
You really think anyone in the royal family has ever done anything because "it would be the right thing to do"?
Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by jackmott42 on Friday March 31, 2023 @10:09AM (#35387393)
The only reason there are any discussions about whether a sitting president can be charged with a crime is because the USA elected an evil administration that was willing to seriously suggest and push that idea.

It is so tragic and disappointing.

Re:Grand Jury Votes to Indict Donald Trump by bayesian_horse on Friday March 31, 2023 @10:16AM (#35387489)
Nope. There is a constitutional argument that a sitting president should not get indicted. But for one thing that's not settled law in any form, nor is it based in "sovereign" powers, nor is it even an immunity. The constitution and the oath of office requires him/her to faithfully execute the laws. That means he can't be immune, he can't be above the law... And yes, the US constitution is beyond messed up. It just barely works well enough not to risk switching it up.

In Germany for example we have sort of an "updated" version, with lessons learned. But one thing I actually want changed is that members of parliament have actual real immunity. Not in the practical sense - immunity for individual members has historically always been waived by parliament at the slightest whiff of an investigation. But the example of Trump teaches us that it is a fallacy to trust in the decency of politicians and unwritten rules.