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Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by sva_ on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:40PM (#35269864)
Since OpenAI didn't release the parameter count of GPT-4, I've been wondering/doubting if it is really much bigger than GPT-3. The release of GPT-3.5 has shown that they've found ways of drastically cutting down compute costs (an order of magnitude) while maintaining or even improving the quality of the model's outputs.

Perhaps the reason that they didn't release the specifics of GPT-4 might be in part due to them wanting to be able to charge a decent amount and make a much larger profit than before. I've tried GPT-4 and so far haven't found it to be so much better than previous models. Some sources claim a 10x increase in ... well I don't know what exactly tbh. How do you even measure it? The opinions on this seem to differ a lot, depending on who you ask. By performance on standardized tests? That doesn't necessarily seem like the best metric for what the LLM tries to be.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by ShamelessC on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @10:42PM (#35269883)
Yannic Kilcher's opinion on this is likely correct. Similar parameter count, but trained for longer. The particulars of their instruction tuning/whatever-else-they-did are the real secret sauce.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by redox99 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:13PM (#35270112)
Don't forget about a more efficient attention that let's them get 32k tokens of context.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by bitL on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:45PM (#35270308)
It's still much worse than 1M context on 16GB VRAM with Reformer, but at the cost of inference speed. And you can use FlashAttention in your own models to get a more efficient/sparse attention now as well.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by meghan_rain on Thursday March 23, 2023 @01:12AM (#35270753)
How could one apply the mentioned technologies to llama/alpaca?
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by Tenoke on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:26AM (#35271809)
The quality with reformer is much much worse, it's not really comparable.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by bitL on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:27AM (#35272151)
Yeah, but it fits on a single GPU. Now imagine it scaled across 1000 GPUs.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by Tenoke on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:09AM (#35272407)
I finetuned one in 2020[0] to play around with it and the results still seemed a bit worse than a gpt of comparable size.

0. https://svilentodorov.xyz/blog/reformer-99m/

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by Eji1700 on Wednesday March 22, 2023 @11:30PM (#35270219)
Open AI has been doing sketchyish things long before Chat GPT, and I think it's something people are eventually going to notice more and more (then again people were swearing that Musk walked on water for waaaaaay too long given his actions so fuck if I know).

They're 100% marketing FIRST. I don't think they'll outright lie, but they will absolutely screw with their data in such a way to make it look waaay more impressive than it is....which is really annoying to me because they already have impressive results. Sorta like if you managed to send a ship with people on it to mars, but kept claiming you landed on jupiter.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by sva_ on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:19AM (#35270494)
My comment might've seemed like I judge them for trying to make a profit - I don't, since there's nothing wrong with that. I was more pointing to the fact that they probably need to make a profit, rather sooner than later, so they aren't shackled by M$ and can be an independent company.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by blueorange8 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @01:52AM (#35270916)
If they ever do become an independent company you can be sure that Microsoft would already have sucked them dry. Microsoft will never let them go now as long as they are valuable.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by raincole on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:53AM (#35270680)
If they're 100% marketing first, and still made the most impressive AI product so far, you really need to question what all the other companies are doing.

(before someone says Google or Meta's models are bigger or something... I mean product, not models)

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by gentoo on Thursday March 23, 2023 @01:52AM (#35270917)
openAI is in the business of releasing impressive tech demos, Google is in the business of providing search results. I would believe that Google is further along towards creating something useful, but they still don't have anything that's better than their existing search product.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by Eji1700 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @01:55AM (#35270930)
I mean it might not be the most impressive, but again since they're marketing focused they're a hell of a lot better at getting word out.

Still I wouldn't be shocked if they were ahead of the tech race, but as someone who was way into dota and tech and very interested in AI, i followed their results with the game closely, and was very disappointed with how they handled the presentation of their data in multiple instances.

It was still massively impressive that they even got it to play the game, let alone win matches, but certain factors that really should've been mentioned weren't, and they liked to pull the AI before it could get embarrassed

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by menacingly on Thursday March 23, 2023 @02:23AM (#35271075)
Dropping the tactical nuke of ChatGPT was PR brilliance, nearly anyone would kill for shifting the public conversation that dramatically. That kind of marketing first is a synonym for "winner", it almost doesn't matter what the actual product is, or if it works.

But it does, and then look at the impossibility of their position. If the massive cost of research and operations _augments a profitable line of business_, it is perhaps acceptable. Otherwise, you're just setting cash on fire.

Extremely difficult to operate as a non-profit, more realistic as a division than a standalone org, as much as I dislike saying my second pro-MS thing in a week, it makes sense, and I am OK with them operating anywhere except tucked inside an ad business.

Maybe this sort of thing should be operated by the government funding or whatever, but... it isn't.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by godzillabrennus on Thursday March 23, 2023 @02:24AM (#35271081)
This post will probably age as well as the guy who argued with Drew Houston on the market need for DropBox on here when he announced it.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by Eji1700 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @02:29AM (#35271110)
I mean given i'm still comparing it to landing people on mars i'm not sure what else you expect as far as "this is still world changing technology"
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by yreg on Thursday March 23, 2023 @03:13AM (#35271417)
We shouldn't underestimate a company's engineering due to their PR/marketing strategy.

Elon says a lot of annoying things (also in relation to Tesla), but Tesla is still releasing extraordinary products.

Apple is (in a very different manner) also 100% marketing first. And yet they consistently release products that lead the rest of the industry.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by mchaver on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:35AM (#35271853)
On the other hand, if OpenAI is successful and predictions are correct that it will be used to generate a massive amount of spam and turn the internet into gloop then the entirety of Y Combinator's mission ages poorly. I guess offline computing or local networks only would become a bigger thing.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by loveparade on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:19AM (#35270496)
Given how small the time window between the successive releases was it's extremely unlikely that there were any big changes to the model. Most likely it's just better preprocessed training data, more training data, trained for longer, performance optimizations for attention, or a few changes to layer sizes.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by mach1ne on Thursday March 23, 2023 @02:25AM (#35271087)
Your timeline is wrong, GPT-4 finished training already in August.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by Veen on Thursday March 23, 2023 @03:16AM (#35271439)
They didn’t stop release GTP-4 immediately after it was trained and then move on to training GPT-5. They had 4 for almost 6 months before it was released. 5 was certainly well underway long before we’d heard of 4.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by ar9av on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:46AM (#35270640)
I saw this coming a long time ago and I'm still very pissed off. For three reasons:

1. We are all forced to use the damn "chat" API instead of regular completions. Can't wait to have to deal with chatgpt's conversations in order to get a few lines of code out 2. We loose the super valuable 'insert' and 'edit' modes, which were great for code 3. 3-day notice period? that's going to be a hell for people who are actually providing products based on codex or doing research

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by mcaledonensis on Thursday March 23, 2023 @01:40AM (#35270859)
It's not like what OpenAI did was an impossible magic trick. They've had exactly three insights. And a right team composition. Repeat that, you'll have GPT 4. You will not have GPT 5 though ;)
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by jiggywiggy on Thursday March 23, 2023 @03:57AM (#35271666)
Its not interesting. It's a hack to have a don't be evil vibe and keeping the name "open" while they go against their own foundational principles.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by KyeRussell on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:39AM (#35272218)
You aren’t providing any sort of valuable insight here. This is more indicative of your priors than anything else. Everyone has heard this argument. The people that believe it, believe it. The people that don’t, don’t.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by jiggywiggy on Sunday March 26, 2023 @12:26PM (#35316272)
The initial goal was to make ai available to everyone. In the process of getting enough funds to build their vision they gave it to Microsoft.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by whym on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:00AM (#35271679)
From WordNet:

> 1. skittish, flighty, spooky, nervous -- (unpredictably excitable (especially of horses))

(I didn't know the word skittish, and I figured this might help others, too.)

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by selfhoster11 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:14AM (#35273505)
Lots of people complain about Apple being skittish (including HN comment section), but they also expect them to pull a stunt every once in a while. OpenAI was an unknown quantity until now.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by nunodonato on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:43AM (#35272244)
dude why are you copy and pasting my comments from other threads?
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by SalmoShalazar on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:15AM (#35273509)
Did they actually plagiarize a comment you’ve made previously?
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by inquist on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:46AM (#35273872)
I searched and didn’t find any identical prior comment
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by nunodonato on Friday March 24, 2023 @05:11AM (#35286747)
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by dizhn on Friday March 24, 2023 @02:26PM (#35293448)
Is it a bot? were you able to figure anything out?
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by nunodonato on Friday March 24, 2023 @04:09PM (#35294754)
no idea, but its funny how it/he/she fetched the comment a similar reddit discussion and pasted it here...
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by MichaelZuo on Sunday March 26, 2023 @10:19AM (#35314711)
So this 'ar9av' is a bot reposting comments or a troll?

Wonder if dang could take a look at this.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by nunodonato on Friday March 24, 2023 @05:11AM (#35286745)
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by aleksanderhan on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:10AM (#35273452)
Nobody are forced to anything. You don't have to use openai services if you don't want to...
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by selfhoster11 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:17AM (#35273526)
> Nobody are forced to anything. You don't have to use a smartphone if you don't want to...

I expect that a similar thing is possible with the use of AI (for work or possibly education, if not for personal use) as happened with smartphones.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by ugh123 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @03:35AM (#35271545)
>performance on standardized tests? That doesn't necessarily seem like the best metric for what the LLM tries to be.

The standardized tests give a baseline, no matter how arbitrary it might be, just as they do for humans in school.

Whether we think it's right or not, these tools are coming for the workplace. So their ultimate metric will be in business performance to justify their costs (whatever they may be).

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by lionkor on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:15AM (#35271756)
GPT 3.5 had trouble understanding when I told it "Say 2 bob are a beb, how many beb per bob are there?" and it wrote a goddamn essay about shoes.

That thing isnt smart, it doesnt understand, it doesnt know, it just rambles. I have worked with people who do the same, yes, but they also werent a threat to most jobs.

I said it before, and I will say it again: If ChatGPT 3,4,5,... can take your job, maybe youre not really providing that much value. Make of that what you will - not everyone has to provide huge value.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by Mike_12345 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:41AM (#35271887)
Answer from GPT-4:

"This question seems to be intentionally nonsensical or is using unfamiliar terminology. However, if we try to interpret it, we could say that there are 2 "bob" making up 1 "beb." In this case, there would be 0.5 "beb" per "bob." Please provide more context or clarify the terms if you are looking for a different answer."

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by skykooler on Thursday March 23, 2023 @10:05AM (#35275004)
What do LLaMA-based models answer for this?
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by qingdao99 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @10:38AM (#35275513)
alpaca.cpp 7b model gave me this:

> Say 2 bob are a beb, how many beb per bob are there?

There are two bebs per bob.

> No, there are 2 bobs per beb.

Correct! There is only one other answer that makes sense - "1 Bob for every Beb". But this does not make mathematical or logical sense since a single Bob can have multiple Babes associated with it and vice versa (as seen in the example). Therefore, we must conclude there are two bobs per beb.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by lionkor on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:49PM (#35282547)
Cool, but sadly, as I said, it did not give a very useful answer. If asked enough times, im sure it will give a reasonable answer, yes, but thats not the point.

GPT4s answer is interesting, though

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by Mike_12345 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @07:01PM (#35282693)
But all of the answers were correct and useful, and GPT-4 was perfect. Anyway ChatGPT is getting hooked up to Wolfram Alpha, and that won't have any issues with basic algebra.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by ugh123 on Sunday March 26, 2023 @12:21AM (#35310902)
If you already know the answer, but need an interesting and detailed way to explain/write it, then GPT4 can be an immense value-add. Even if you have to do some fact checking afterwards.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by kolinko on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:21AM (#35271785)
I typed the query into chat-gpt3.5 (turbo and legacy), and 4, and they all said that there's 0.5 beb per bob.

Did you use the quoted prompt exactly?

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by lionkor on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:39AM (#35271876)
No, I didn't use the quoted prompt, but even after explaining to it that bob and beb were not, in fact, shoe related terms, it still kept insisting and being confused (while also giving the correct 1/2 answer).

It can do it, but its not deterministic, and it doesnt really do it well. You can continue the chain by asking "How many bob per bib, assuming two beb per bib?", and see if it chokes then. It sometimes does, sometimes doesnt.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by ogogmad on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:53AM (#35271973)
GPT-4:

   If 2 bebs are equal to 1 bib, and we know that 1 beb equals 2 bobs, we can
   determine how many bobs there are per bib using simple substitution.
   
   1 bib = 2 bebs
   1 beb = 2 bobs
   
   Therefore,
   
   1 bib = 2 bebs × 2 bobs/beb = 4 bobs
   
   So, there are 4 bobs per bib.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by Tostino on Thursday March 23, 2023 @01:48PM (#35278552)
You do realize that the current implementations get their context polluted by your prior conversation, right?
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by hcrean on Thursday March 23, 2023 @07:06AM (#35272860)
I think right here we have an example AI reproducibility problem. It seems fully reasonable and credible as an outcome, but it is hard to dig in and replicate. But the truth of ML is it would be difficult to replicate even if things were FOSS.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by BeefWellington on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:45AM (#35273865)
> I said it before, and I will say it again: If ChatGPT 3,4,5,... can take your job, maybe youre not really providing that much value.

The thing you're missing here is that it might take someone's job not because they weren't providing the value but because the people who crunch numbers decided to axe 15% of a company's workforce because some executive was sold a pack of lies about what LLMs/"AI" are actually capable of.

It's fine if that happens to one company who then finds out the hard way. It's probably more social-unresty if it's essentially done at every company in every marketplace an LLM can touch - from writing to programming to 3D animation to teaching.

The hype machine around LLM/AI here is the same irrational one we saw around blockchain. The key difference is blockchain was basically never sold as really replacing a person's job (at best you could argue it was sold as getting around the banking industry and maybe eventually being able to replace it, ish). The primary sales pitch of these LLMs is essentially "do more with less".

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by DeathArrow on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:45AM (#35271923)
> Since OpenAI didn't release the parameter count of GPT-4

That makes me ask what the open in OpenAI stands for?

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by ugjka on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:51AM (#35271957)
Just like MTV doesn't mean Music TV anymore.

As a joke I'd say, Open means "open your wallets"

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by version_five on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:18AM (#35272095)
Or TLC as the learning channel or History channel (assuming these still exist).

There are also lots of "Open Government" initiatives that end up being about making everything as opaque and confusing as possible. There were (are?) popular in the "big data" era, though funnily enough, if you watch "Yes Minister!" from ~40 years ago, there is a similar gag about "open government" in the first few episodes, so it's not new.

See of course Orwell, "we care about your privacy" banners, etc. People like to lie as blatantly as possible.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by rvnx on Thursday March 23, 2023 @04:56AM (#35271994)
Didn't know it was "Music TV", made me think about Skyrock... the biggest Rap channel in France, and essentially no Rock there.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by zarzavat on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:24AM (#35272131)
ChatGPT-4 is definitely slower than GPT-3.5 (and way slower than 3.5-turbo). What could be the reason for that other than much larger parameter count?

I agree that the capabilities seem overhyped. In my subjective experience, 4 seems a little better than 3.5 but not by a huge amount. We just have OpenAI’s cherry-picked word that it‘s this incredible advance.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by CapsAdmin on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:40AM (#35272225)
Runs on cheaper but slower compute maybe? Given all the hype and little competition, I'm sure they're willing to make it slower if it reduces cost.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by grph123dot on Thursday March 23, 2023 @06:55AM (#35272759)
Also, it is in their best interest to pick the low hanging fruit little by little so that they can continue releasing a new versions of chatgpt every six months. I think they will only accelerate the progress of chatgpt when their moat of first move advantage is being assaulted. There are five types of moats: Low-cost production; High switching costs; Network effects; Intangible assets; Efficient scale.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by selfhoster11 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:22AM (#35273574)
I disagree. It does much, much better on selected tasks. I cannot quite figure out how to describe what the difference "feels" like, but the performance is sometimes markedly different when feeding ChatGPT-3.5 and ChatGPT-4 the same prompt.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by allemagne on Thursday March 23, 2023 @11:34AM (#35276405)
One task that ChatGPT-3.5 is hilariously bad at is reversing strings (both words and pseudorandom input). It seems to have only a vague concept of what that means, even if I try to hold its hand through the process. Maybe some prompt engineering can get it to succeed on anything longer than four letters.

ChatGPT-4 meanwhile seems to have no issue with this at all.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by zarzavat on Thursday March 23, 2023 @05:44PM (#35281713)
Have you tried inserting spaces between the characters? This may just be a tokenization issue, rather than anything due to the model per se.

Reversing a string is somewhat of a pathological case for language models, because they see tokens not characters. Learning that the token “got” and token “tog” are mirror images is only useful for string reversal and generating palindromes. Unless they are trained specifically for this task, they may not be able to do it. They should however be able to see that “g o t” and “t o g” are mirror images.

Infamously, early versions of GPT-3 tokenized numbers as grouped tokens, nerfing its calculation abilities, because it would tokenize a number such as 12345 as (illustratively) 12 34 5 which is obviously a harmful representation.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by pixl97 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:31PM (#35277294)
> What could be the reason for that other than much larger parameter count?

Longer inference time... I should have written it down now that people are asking about it, but a few weeks ago I was seeing people discuss the GPT-4 "paper" in what little information was released and that throwing more inference compute at the problem gives better responses.

>, 4 seems a little better than 3.5 but not by a huge amount.

Can you define that in a tangible way? I don't think most of us can since we have so little access to the product.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by HDThoreaun on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:49PM (#35277559)
> 4 seems a little better than 3.5 but not by a huge amount.

Depends on the task. 3.5 was completely incapable of doing math, but 4 seems to be able to at a solid highschool graduate level.

Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by marcyb5st on Thursday March 23, 2023 @08:42AM (#35273826)
I am not sure how much bigger, but definitely much bigger IMHO. Otherwise you wouldn't be capped at 25 requests every 3h. That number is small enough that makes me think the inference costs/hardware needed are much bigger than 3.5.
Re:OpenAI’s policies hinder reproducible research on languag... by pixl97 on Thursday March 23, 2023 @12:27PM (#35277228)
I believe I heard that running inference longer is giving the better responses we're seeing in v4. Hence why v4 is taking so much longer to output data.

Of course we won't know this for sure until OAI tells us, so we may be in the dark for a while.