News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by josephg on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:43AM (#35148435)
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

- Companies should suffer massive fines / damages / criminal charges when they leak the personal data of millions of customers.

- I think EULAs are a ridiculous run-around the law. They should be non-enforceable. Its far from perfect, but case law is pretty clear that people and companies are liable for damages due to foreseeable harm that they cause. (Except EULAs dodge this.) (I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.)

Software engineers & security engineers can make just about anything secure. But we can only do so if we're given time and money to hire the expertise when needed. We need to make it incredibly expensive for companies to lose personal data like this. Management teams should be clamoring to hire the best security engineers. But they'll only do so if they're sufficiently motivated.

The risk of massive liability is the right incentive to convince companies to invest in getting information security right. The current status quo is ridiculous.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by Gasp0de on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:51AM (#35148492)
This. It would have been (relatively) easy for Ring to encrypt the video data so that they themselves can't access it. Obviously I don't wish it upon the individuals that use these cameras but I would probably smirk if data gets leaked and Amazon gets sued into the ground.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by sasas on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:08AM (#35148574)
E2E encryption is supported with Ring. You have to enable it yourself. Only discovered this a few weeks ago and immediately enabled it [1]

This doesn't protect your PII data though. This is not a good situation at all.

[1] https://support.ring.com/hc/en-us/articles/360054941511-Unde...

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by phpisthebest on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:15AM (#35148617)
There are also some pretty extreme feature downgrades to enabling it. Main ones for me if I was a customer would be

Limited notifications,.loss of timeline feature, inaccessible on desktop and other non-mobile platform

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by sasas on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:37AM (#35148750)
Definitely some tradeoffs there. I recall going back and forth in my head "I'm paranoid, I don't need to enable this" to "what if there was a breach..".

and well.. here we are.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by ratg13 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:05AM (#35148914)
E2E encryption only protects the data while it is in transmission.

If there is a breach, all of your data is accessible because it is decrypted at the endpoint.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by josephg on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:53AM (#35149243)
Thats not what E2E encryption means. Encryption during transmission is called transport layer encryption (eg via TLS). E2E (end to end) encryption is encryption where the data is encrypted in transit and at rest. Generally E2E systems only have the keys to decrypt the data on the user's (endpoint) device.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by ratg13 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:13PM (#35158777)
Thanks for your comment. I truly had no idea.

This was very informative and changes my views on a few things.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by jmholla on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @12:12PM (#35170537)
That said, I'm pretty sure Zoom used your definition of E2E in their marketing so the confusion is warranted.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by api on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:34AM (#35149900)
Run your own camera system with Blue Iris.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by johnklos on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @11:01AM (#35152593)
That's a nice idea, but Blue Iris in particular, while being affordable and while not requiring a subscription, only runs on Windows. Keeping a Windows system running 24/7 is a whole chore in itself.

Got any suggestions for OSes that are easy to secure and easy to run 24/7?

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by dole on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @11:16AM (#35152862)
MotionEyeOS isn’t as easy as a Windows installer and is probably only as secure as you make the rest of your network, but as a main Windows user and occasional *nix, the various guides weren’t too hard to follow and it’s been fairly reliable.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by progman32 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @11:56AM (#35153571)
Frigate, optionally with Home Assistant. Exceptionally reliable for the two years I've used it.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by zucked on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:01PM (#35158514)
I rolled my own system, initially with MotionEye, and then rolled over to Frigate. I appreciate the extra object detection feature in MotionEye, whereas MotionEye really only records on, well, motion. Even with two 720P streams, I'm able to do motion detection and object recognition on an ancient Core2Duo Mac Mini, no TPU.

No data leaves my LAN unless I want it to.

The most painful part of the whole process was the YAML files for Frigate.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by CommanderData on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:54PM (#35159465)
They should be required by law to provide offline access to your stream, RTSP or something similar.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by anonymous_sorry on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:30AM (#35148705)
Apart from leaks harming the privacy of customers, paying ransoms does social harm by providing an income and incentive to criminals.

I found leaked details of Royal Mail's negotiations with their attackers fascinating [0].

I'm not sure it's practical to outlaw the payment of ransoms, but it should at least be heavily taxed (say, 100%). Naively, I would expect this to cut by half the amount that can be extorted through ransomware attacks, making countries that implement such a tax less attractive targets.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/15/under-no-ci...

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by TylerE on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:09AM (#35148932)
It’s been tried. Laws against paying just make people not report to the police at all.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by yellowsir on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:44AM (#35149175)
well, i guess laws against murder, makes murder no report them self...
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @06:16AM (#35149375)
> laws against murder, makes murder no report them self

One of these is more universally repulsive than the other. Were it illegal, I'm not sure I could be bothered to blow a whistle on a company paying a cyberransom. That's obviously different for murder.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by thombat on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:00AM (#35149634)
The analogy is closer to being: the state will prosecute the murder victim's family for failing to properly protect them AND won't be able to locate or punish the true murderer. So in this situation, what's the family going to do? Mourn in private and not report the crime, maybe try for vigilante justice if they think they've identified the murderer.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by abirch on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @08:52AM (#35150661)
And not let the community know there is a threat out there.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by treeman79 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @09:00AM (#35150760)
In this scenario. the community is a danger to the family.

Reporting the murder will see the community punish the family for not protecting the person better.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by counttheforks on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:32AM (#35149880)
Then you toss the entire executive branch in prison when it inevitably leaks. The problem will solve itself soon enough. These criminal organizations should be treated as such.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by netsharc on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:47AM (#35150010)
Hah the LockBit negotiator displays that childish " I'm going to make something up and be convinced it's true" mentality that's much too common nowadays..

> LockBit refused to accept the explanation and accused the company’s negotiator of “bluffing”, speculating that the company’s directors probably held £100m of cryptocurrency personally that could “finish this nightmare”.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by msla on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @11:38AM (#35153271)
"I have the ability to punish you for my fantasy not being true" isn't childish, it's common among adults, and, indeed, is a defining feature among the adults who abuse children and anyone else less powerful than them. It is, in fact, one of the most powerful tools a dictator has: "You failed to capture that objective? You are incompetent, and possibly traitorous, so you will be executed, your family will be executed, and I will continue this war with competent generals who execute my plans because my plans are viable."
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by JohnFen on Wednesday March 15, 2023 @11:09AM (#35169487)
If an organization pays a ransom, I consider that organization to be effectively in league with the criminals, and avoid doing any business with them in the future.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by pipo234 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:25AM (#35148675)
Yes. Also, this time it's a consumer grade surveillance, but the same goes for security cams in prisons or nuclear facilities: hoarding information (sensitive or not) does not translate 1:1 to increasing security. This should be obvious, still we feel more, not less, safe with our house surveilled with technology.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by echelon on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @03:46AM (#35148454)
> I've said it before and I'll say it again

Don't tell us, tell your legislators. Ideally with some kind of narrative that ties to a financial incentive for the lawmaker and his or her constituents.

If the security industry got together and lobbied for this as both a jobs program (security companies offering services to tech companies) and as a means of protecting Americans/constituents, then it might get somewhere.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by InCityDreams on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:51AM (#35149229)
>Ideally with some kind of narrative that ties to a financial incentive for the lawmaker and his or her constituents.

Absofuckinglutely. Never talk to a politician without remembering that if they don't get a cut...

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @06:17AM (#35149383)
> never talk to a politician without remembering that if they don't get a cut

Most voters don't care about digital security. That means most politicians, reasonably, don't care either. Most voters do care about their economies. So linking what you're talking about to talking points the political can use is helpful. Not because they're going to get a cut.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by theK on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @04:57AM (#35148869)
I am very much with you on this but I think the biggest hurdle in this theory is that introducing such regulation would create a de-facto hostile innovation environment in that jurisdiction. And no regulator will lightheartedly put themselves into the position of being the guy that “drove away all the innovators/startups/research/business”
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by remus on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:33AM (#35149083)
> I am very much with you on this but I think the biggest hurdle in this theory is that introducing such regulation would create a de-facto hostile innovation environment in that jurisdiction.

Personally I think that is a price worth paying. Laws like the parent are suggesting are about having a standard that companies need to meet if they want to operate in a given space, and currently it is clear that companies will not meet these standards unless they are legally obliged to do so.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by komali2 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:07AM (#35148923)
Some would say the most fertile ground for "business innovation" is a country with no labor protection laws.

I think innovation will happen regardless and I'm kinda tired of fear mongering around "throttling innovation" whenever people talk about making our world better for people.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @06:22AM (#35149417)
> the most fertile ground for "business innovation" is a country with no labor protection laws

Lack of labor law causes tangible harm. What's the tangible harm caused by Ring leaking these data? Actual, non-hypothetical harm?

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by wruza on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @05:21AM (#35149001)
In the next episodes:

- Why so expensive?

- Where did all businesses go?

- Let’s create a certified secure data enclave companies!

- Why so expensive still?

- We can’t charge a certified company because it would damage half the economy!

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by ajsnigrutin on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:19AM (#35149765)
You can translate this to any kind of regulation.

Want cars not to explode when slightly rear-ended? Why are they so expensive now? Where did the car businesses go? Let's create car security companies! Why so expensive still? ...

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by yonixw on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:52AM (#35150052)
I think your example just fortified his comment.

I can't make a car company. I can make a webcam on doors company.

And you might say it is about raw materials. But I can buy enough materials for one car and one webcam door. I can't put the car on the road (as much as it make sense) only because of the sheer amount of cost required to pass regulations.

So while regulation is something we want as costumers. I think we'd prefer to not have it become a obstacle in the software sector to the point it exist elsewhere.

That is why I think the GDPR is great since it applies to companies with 250+ employs.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by sofixa on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @08:23AM (#35150324)
>So while regulation is something we want as costumers. I think we'd prefer to not have it become a obstacle in the software sector to the point it exist elsewhere.

Alternatively looked in the metaphor, cars are dangerous things - for the passengers and civilians nearby. We as a society don't want any random vehicle to be on the road due to the risks involved. A webcam door doesn't have this type of risk associated, so it's fine to DIY and whatever. However there are still risks, like PII leaks, so these they need to be mitigated too.

> That is why I think the GDPR is great since it applies to companies with 250+ employs.

No it doesn't? It applies to any company that holds EU citizens' PII.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by yonixw on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:12PM (#35155934)
> No it doesn't

Well I guess I fell into this myth:

https://www.vistra.com/insights/if-i-have-fewer-250-members-...

Which do give some exemption to <250 people companies but not to an extent that I said.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by bharathyes on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @02:42PM (#35156466)
i am only glad that you arent selling cars without safety tests.

i would also be glad that not anyone would make a air traffic control or a train signaling system.

while i like foss programs and have low barriers of entry in any field, there needs to be a minimal standard that everyone shoud adhere to where a system failure could affect someones life beyond minor inconvenience.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @06:19AM (#35149393)
> companies should suffer massive fines / damages / criminal charges when they leak the personal data of millions of customers

This is zealous. If consumers don't care, and nobody can show tangible damages, "massive fines" and "criminal charges" are closer to moral outrage than prudent lawmaking.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by ajsnigrutin on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:16AM (#35149750)
Noone cares about anything, unless they're the one affected by this.

I don't care if people around me don't have car insurance, but once one of them crashes into my car, i sure want them to have one, while the rest will continue not caring.

So yes, requiring companies to safeguard data, even if that means fines and criminal charges for responsible people is important.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by mtlmtlmtlmtl on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @08:04AM (#35150160)
What's your basis for assuming customers don't care?

I think there are those who don't care, and those who care but don't know better in the face of misleading marketing.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by mnd999 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:50AM (#35150036)
I kinda agree with you but it’s a tough one because what you’re describing is fining the victims of a crime. We don’t fine homeowners who fit cheap locks and get burgled do we.

Pragmatically, it might be the right thing to do, but it feels wrong. Would you consider a due diligence to security threshold? That would certainly make it easier the well resourced to weasel out of fines, but when a small startup comes up against a well resourced nation state level hackers with a catalogue of 0days what are they supposed to do? Just go out of business?

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by chrisandchris on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @07:56AM (#35150081)
We don't fine them, but homeowners usually don't have million of records of private data at home.

Wouldn't you want your bank get fined if they aren't secure enough and loose your money? Or your local government if they loose your tax records because they think they don't need to lock their door?

The hard part will be determining whether the company could have done something about it (like locking the doors or the windows). If they could, they for sure should get a fine if they didn't.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by proto_lambda on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @08:23AM (#35150322)
We absolutely do fine/convict homeowners if, in a burglary, their improperly secured gun is stolen. The fines aren't for being hacked, they're for not adequately securing user data; ownership of which is a conscious decision.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by badrabbit on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @08:06AM (#35150169)
It would be like fining the victim of home burglary who stores data about their neighbors for profit. Mandatory business data leak should be exempt but everything else should be a liability. If they save cc info by default (opt-out) that should be a major liability.
Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by v3x3366 on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @08:52AM (#35150670)
> We don’t fine homeowners who fit cheap locks and get burgled do we

This isn't an appropriate comparison. I'm not a lawyer but I would imagine this would fall under negligence. Businesses are liable for improperly securing dangerous materials in the physical world.

Re:Ring LLC home security company ransomed by ALPHV ransomware by iamacyborg on Tuesday March 14, 2023 @10:34AM (#35152179)
> We don’t fine homeowners who fit cheap locks and get burgled do we.

The type of locks you have affect the price of your home insurance, in the UK at least.