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Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by nunez on Friday March 10, 2023 @08:28AM (#35094069)
Most people have heard of blockchain (through crypto), but non-techies are _actually using_ ChatGPT for daily tasks. Departments of ed and universities moved fast in integrating anti-ChatGPT into their programs.

The hype is real.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by wpietri on Friday March 10, 2023 @09:07AM (#35094439)
I suppose I should have been more specific. I can believe people will be using this. I'm just not yet seeing how it will make things net better. So yes, academic cheaters will surely be trying to use it, although we'll see whether they actually succeed.

But continuing with your analogy, I'll note that the people who fight financial crimes and fraud have absolutely had to integrate responses to cryptocurrencies. That didn't prove that there was lasting value to the cryptocurrency hype wave.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by simonw on Friday March 10, 2023 @09:34AM (#35094737)
I used it to release some software that used AppleScript to export data from Apple Notes, starting from zero knowledge of AppleScript two hours earlier: https://til.simonwillison.net/gpt3/chatgpt-applescript
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by wpietri on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:05AM (#35095173)
Thanks for the example.

I will note that you didn't use it for most of the coding. And that looking at your code, you also seem perfectly capable of figuring out the AppleScript if you had wanted to. In an amount of time that would not have wildly increased the total project time.

So overall, this looks very "stone soup" to me. Did it get you over a hump? Surely. Did it actually contribute much in terms of code? Not from what I see in your script.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by pixl97 on Friday March 10, 2023 @02:04PM (#35099318)
Not op, but this seems like a particularly weird take...

I do support work myself, and our developers have a function that is broken and shoving too much stuff into the database. This crap is compiled into a DLL so I can't do anything about directly. Went to GPT and said "hey, I have a table named X, when Y updates write a trigger that deletes this"

In a few seconds it dumps out a working trigger. Now, I've never written one of these before, dong SQL stuff isn't really my forte, but with a basic understanding of what I needed done I got working code with an explanation faster than I could parse the how to.

Even if AI doesn't contribute more than that, for lots of use cases it's more than enough.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by wpietri on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:55PM (#35101696)
Sure, I totally believe you found it valuable, and it's great that it helped you solve your problem. As with simonw, it sounds like it got you over a hump. One you could have gotten over on your own, but maybe you didn't want to or couldn't take the time. But in both cases, what GPT coughed up was a dead end in development terms. It's not like you could just ask it to fix your app or to replace your app.

This sort of reminds me of the 3d-printing hype cycle. People were very excited! We could make any object! We could soon be 3d-printing 3d printers! But in practice, 3d printing is now mostly useful for small, marginally valuable stuff. That's not nothing; I have friends who are excited about their 3d printers. But I also have friends who are excited about woodworking and accordion playing and falconry. But none of these are particularly world-changing.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by simonw on Friday March 10, 2023 @06:34PM (#35102846)
Aha! Yeah I see where you're coming from now. There's a huge amount of hype around this stuff which is completely unjustified: it's not going to replace programmers! It's (hopefully) not going to put vast numbers of people out of work.

My interest in it is this: given this (flawed) technology exists, what are the things we can use it for that are genuinely useful and help us build interesting things that we may not have built before.

I've been finding an increasing number of areas where it gives me a 10-30% productivity boost... and a few areas like the above one where that tips me from "not going to do that project" to "doing that project". Those are what's exciting to me, far away from the breathless hype around this stuff.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by wpietri on Saturday March 11, 2023 @10:37AM (#35109136)
Yes, exactly. This article is about how Google wants to put this into everything. "A new internal directive requires 'generative artificial intelligence' to be incorporated into all of its biggest products within months." I think a lot of people are skipping the "what are the things we can use it for that are genuinely useful" step. Glad to see people actually doing that, so thanks for explaining further.
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by simonw on Friday March 10, 2023 @02:07PM (#35099352)
I absolutely would not have created that project if I had to spend several frustrating hours trying to figure out AppleScript in order to get started.

So in this case the leg-up that GPT gave me was the difference between the project existing and it not existing at all.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by wpietri on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:42PM (#35101512)
I get that. But for these sort of "stone soup" use cases, it's not really a technology for creating software. It's a technology for helping people manage feelings. That's surely a valuable thing, but that's very much not what it's being sold as.
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by barrysteve on Saturday March 11, 2023 @04:31AM (#35106841)
Last night I used chatgpt to assist in some C++ game code. It could suggest a lot of plausible looking examples of specific functions. When attempting to implement the code in c++, gpt revealed that it does not understand typed parameters for basic functions.

It would suggest an incorrect type as an input to a constructor and if you ask it to correct the error, it simply suggests another conceptually similar type to fit in, which also throws an error upon compilation.

A modified chatgpt that was bound under the hood, to a strict set of rules about the structure of c++ and it's relationships, could do much better. The bot gives a strong intuitive sense that we have only solved half or a third of a potential revolution in programming, with more to come.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by travisjungroth on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:19AM (#35095409)
> I can believe people will be using this.

You should start believing people are using this.

People are comparing LLM hype to crypto and VR hype and that’s really not accurate. Those are both always in a state of “someone is using it now, and a ton of people will use it in the future”. ChatGPT is in a state of “a ton of people are using it now”.

It would remind me of the explosion of social networking, except it doesn’t have network effects! It’s crazy how much it’s getting used by all sorts of people not because they want to interact with their friends (messaging apps) but just because they want to use it.

I was a big AI and even just generally ML doubter until I started using it as part of my workflow and reading about how other people are, too. At that point, you kinda have to update your priors.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by treeman79 on Friday March 10, 2023 @09:59AM (#35095089)
I mentioned ChatGPt to my non techie wife.

To my shock, She started explaining to me how awesome it is and how all of her teacher friends are using it to offload a lot of the boring work like writing comments and stuff for students report cards. They are required to write numerous paragraphs for each student several times.

Something in the past I would take my wife an entire week each time.

These are people that need help setting up Wi-Fi on a laptop. And they are in love with ChatGPT.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by wpietri on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:09AM (#35095235)
Sure. Prose generation is a use case I'm hearing a lot. I'm just not convinced that it's value generating. E.g., ChatGPT doesn't know shit about the students, so it is being used as a bullshit generator here. If I were a parent, I would be incandescent with rage to learn that one of the few communications I got from a teacher all year was machine-generated bullshit.
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by treeman79 on Friday March 10, 2023 @12:16PM (#35097503)
Cuts an every other monthly task from 40 hours to 4 hours. Still need to give it general points that are relevant.

She manages 80 students.

Alternate would be school hire a lot more staff.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by baumy on Friday March 10, 2023 @12:22PM (#35097616)
Wouldn't the alternative be to reconsider the merits of the 40 hour bimonthly task?

If I'm understanding right, your wife is coming up with some bullet point style feedback about each of her students as part of a recurring evaluation, then using ChatGPT to generate lengthy prose from those bullet points.

Hailing ChatGPT as a savior here feels something like the tail wagging the dog. Why not just change the nature of the task so that what's required is to provide the quick bullet points, instead of using language model prose generation as a go-between for communication from teacher to student? What value is being added by the middle ChatGPT layer? More importantly, what value was being added by the 36 hours of marginal effort previously spent doing this manually?

That's one of my main hang ups with all the proposed use cases of ChatGPT - it seems we've created arbitrary problems and now have this complicated tool to solve them. Which in turn will enable us to keep making bigger and more arbitrary problems. But the problems don't need to exist in the first place

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by wpietri on Friday March 10, 2023 @12:43PM (#35098002)
Exactly. If the only valuable part is the "general points that are relevant", then I would much rather receive those. As you say, perhaps in bullet points. Adding a bunch of utterly predictable prose around that doesn't make it better for me, it makes it worse, because it just dilutes the signal.
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by dragonwriter on Friday March 10, 2023 @02:17PM (#35099421)
Alternate would be that she write the actual comments that she has, and not puff them out to meet some artificial "must be multiple paragraphs even if the information to be conveyed doesn't justify it". Concise communication is the only thing that isn't wasting effort for both the writer and the reader.

Reducing internal pushback to customer hostile bureaucratic requirements imposed by management on employees is a harmful effect of ChatGPT, not a benefit.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by treeman79 on Friday March 10, 2023 @03:38PM (#35100638)
She would be fired for refusing. She’s a teacher. She has almost no freedom in anything. It’s also an international standard for her school. It would require an uprising of tens of thousands of teachers world wide.

I agree with what you say. However she is not willing to a fight worldwide bureaucracy.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by dragonwriter on Friday March 10, 2023 @03:57PM (#35100915)
Teachers are very often unionized, and very often the non-economic demands of their contract negotiations include changes in policies of this kind.

Employee pushback isn’t just individual.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by lelanthran on Friday March 10, 2023 @03:58PM (#35100937)
> Alternate would be school hire a lot more staff.

What were they doing before ChatGPT?

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by edanm on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:36PM (#35101445)
From my experience with education - probably doing the work themselves, often by working way longer hours than any person should.

Teachers tend to work very long hours because of having to grade work, write these kinds of reports, etc, all in their "non-teaching" time.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by ushtaritk421 on Monday March 13, 2023 @11:19AM (#35136903)
As soon as people figure out teachers are using this, schools will either ban it or come up with another useless but time-consuming task to signal to parents that the teacher cares individually about their child enough to do the time-consuming task.
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by ushtaritk421 on Monday March 13, 2023 @11:21AM (#35136927)
Prose writing used to be a fairly honest signal that someone smart spent time writing it for you. Now it's not, so we will invent another signal that someone smart spent time on you.
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by Jevon23 on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:22AM (#35095457)
This is completely insane and only reinforces my belief that this technology is a net negative for society.
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by treeman79 on Friday March 10, 2023 @01:24PM (#35098676)
As a programmer, I get paid huge amounts of money to automate tasks that others or myself would normally do.
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by wpietri on Friday March 10, 2023 @04:58PM (#35101736)
Sure, but we should only automate the tasks that are of net benefit to society. Automating robocalls freed up lots of schmucks from having to manually bother people all day. But that didn't make the world better. It made it worse.
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by bagacrap on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:11AM (#35095270)
This sounds like grounds for dismissal...
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by joshstrange on Friday March 10, 2023 @11:39AM (#35096755)
Yep, when I went home for christmas and mentioned it off-hand my BIL was like "Oh yeah, we use that for our business to write tweet and some other things" (self-employed, online fitness trainer with multiple coaches working under him and my sister). I talked with him last night and they are paying for Jasper.ai for their team to collaboratively work on documents. All of this with zero input from me. My parents also recently started playing with ChatGPT after a very basic crash course and the next day they were gushing about how easy it was and how helpful it was for repetitive text they have to write.

My entire family fully understands it's just a tool, you need to check it's output, and it's not perfect but it's saved them a bunch of time and allows them to focus on what they are best at by getting a good starting point from *GPT.

Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by freejazz on Friday March 10, 2023 @10:37AM (#35095712)
Do you mean in order to detect whether students are using them? I haven't heard of ChatGPT being used in education at all, tbqh.
Re:Google dusts off the failed Google+ playbook to fight Cha... by Barracoon on Friday March 10, 2023 @01:52PM (#35099122)
Here's an experiment at JHU: https://alperovitch.sais.jhu.edu/five-days-in-class-with-cha...

I'm not fully convinced it was a net-positive, because sometimes asking the "dumb" question shows that other people in class had that question but didn't want to ask, or didn't know they had that question until someone else voiced it.