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Re:Google Search Is Dying by A_D_E_P_T on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:05AM (#35039623)
Reddit is one of the most astroturfed places on the internet, and there's an entire ecology of PR/marketing firms that focus exclusively on it. There's also a thriving market in "high karma" accounts, which can be bought for as little as $30.

> Reddit also doesn't have "promoted" content / responses

It does, though. Your karma basically determines the visibility of any new post you try to make. And low-karma or new accounts are de facto shadowbanned.

Basically, Reddit's system is terrible.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by SquareWheel on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:12AM (#35039682)
> Your karma basically determines the visibility of any new post you try to make.

User karma isn't factored into the site's sorting algorithms. Post score is, and that influences karma, but not the other way around.

edit: On reflection, you may have been referring to the ability to post, rather than the popularity of the post. In that case, the misunderstanding was mine.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by Gigachad on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:16AM (#35039716)
It’s not part of the ranking algorithm, it’s part of the anti spam system. If you make a new account and comment, it’s almost never visible to anyone else.

You have to warm up accounts with a few comments over a week before they start showing up.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by SquareWheel on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:19AM (#35039738)
That's often true. Individual subreddits may filter new accounts or low-karma thresholds to prevent spam. The better subreddits will simply flag it for manual review rather than remove it outright.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by input_sh on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:09AM (#35040067)
An alternative: create an account, don't use it for a while, use it.

Mods essentially have two variables to work with: account age and karma. Some subs do set minimum karma (I've stumbled upon some that wouldn't accept below 2k karma), but most just go by account age to prevent banned users from going around the ban.

And a tip for spotting karma farmers: just go to one of those big subs that accept screenshots of tweets. If the screenshot has engagements/timestamp cropped, click on a profile. Like 8 times out of 10 it's gonna be an older account that never posted before reposting one of the older popular submissions.

EDIT: Here's an example that took me like 20s to find: https://www.reddit.com/user/DepartureSimples/

Re:Google Search Is Dying by pprotas on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:16AM (#35039714)
> Your karma basically determines the visibility of any new post you try to make.

Are you sure? How do you know this?

Re:Google Search Is Dying by moffkalast on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:08AM (#35040062)
I think what they're trying to say is some subreddits auto-collapse comments from users with low karma and recent date of creation to combat bots. If reddit gives any more weight to high karma users I can tell you as one that it definitely doesn't seem noticeable at all. Right time and right place comments are always the ones that end up on top.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by ta8903 on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:50PM (#35044592)
On most big subs if you have a fresh account your posts are hidden by default. Maybe they have to be manually approved? Not sure.

Source: Don't have a persistent reddit account, just made a new one for the few times I wanted to post something.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by petesergeant on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:07AM (#35039647)
> Reddit's system is terrible

This doesn’t match my experience of reading Reddit

Re:Google Search Is Dying by LewisVerstappen on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:14AM (#35039701)
That's because you're just unaware of how astroturfed it is.

I just headed over to one of the popular subreddits and randomly picked an account that posted a top meme

https://www.reddit.com/user/esberat/submitted/

The account has 8 million post karma and every single post it submits to a subreddit ends up on the front page of Reddit... without fail.

The account isn't a mod of any of those subs, but they're clearly using upvote manipulation to get every single one of their posts to the front page.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by Doctor_Fegg on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:28AM (#35039786)
But in the context of TFA - searching Reddit to get factual answers - what appears on the reddit.com front page from day to day is largely irrelevant, surely?
Re:Google Search Is Dying by A_D_E_P_T on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:51AM (#35039935)
By extension, high-karma accounts that are run by marketing companies can post in a niche subreddit to subtly promote their product or disparage their competition, and they'll end up on the front page of that subreddit. They'll get a lot of views and a lot more engagement than the average unsophisticated user's post would -- and those astroturfed posts would, on average, rank higher in searches.

This is analogous to SEO, but rather more insidious and sneaky. You can spot SEO blogspam from a mile away. You don't know if a Reddit user is a real person, a bot, or a company's representative.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by CuriouslyC on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:45AM (#35043167)
Reddit bots are used for upvote manipulation of legitimate posts by brand ambassadors/etc. The post histories are just to make the bot look legitimate.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by michaelt on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:13AM (#35040099)
I always assumed the botted accounts on Reddit were in the hands of marketing companies, ready to upvote posts saying "My Brand X headphones sound great" or "I changed from Brand Y to Brand Z cigarettes because the smooth taste never leaves me feeling over-smoked" or "I made big gains by putting my life savings into this sketchy investment" or whatever they're being paid to promote at the time.

I'd wager you could do a lot to influence public opinion with just an upvote ring, without the botted accounts actually needing to post messages.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by DanielVZ on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:24AM (#35039768)
Of course the front-page will look like that. Niche subreddits are a completely different experience.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by deafpolygon on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:29AM (#35039789)
Who cares? The real reddit stuff is not in the front pages.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by bobmaxup on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:53AM (#35039948)
Someone must care, no? Those threads get a large number of impressions, assumedly from real users.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by moffkalast on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:09AM (#35040075)
> I just headed over to one of the popular subreddits

That was your first mistake, the defaults are cesspools full of karma farming bots. Nobody goes to those for advice.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by A_D_E_P_T on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:24AM (#35040182)
What makes you think that the niche subreddits aren't also full of marketing firms, bots, and upvote networks? With very few exceptions, they are.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by parasubvert on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:45AM (#35040304)
They also have an okay s:n ratio in my experience, as the mod team can work the experience. Like for example, q&a type threads tend to be useful. There are folks promoting things but it’s obvious when they are.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by moffkalast on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:51AM (#35040365)
Because the tiny niche audience isn't a cost effective marketing group? Advertisers want to maximize their reach and well, it's not like they know these groups even exist.

I'm sure it happens a lot regardless, but the vast majority of content in those is still just from regular people. You can tell by the information posted as it tends to be more or less truthful and useful. Once it stops being that it'll be obvious enough. Like when Russian bots invade your average Ukraine related r/worldnews post.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by dsfyu404ed on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:06AM (#35041128)
>Because the tiny niche audience isn't a cost effective marketing group? A

That's the magic of Reddit, 4Chan and every other cesspool where any niche is only a slight URL change away from any other niche.

It's trivially easy to add niche subs 2, 3 and 4 to the list of places that you target.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by moffkalast on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:28AM (#35042141)
Yeah and then any mod with half a brain sees you're spamming things everywhere and bans you.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by dsfyu404ed on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:48AM (#35042408)
1) That's a whack-a-mole exercise when the astrorufer buys accounts in bulk.

2) You can tune these systems to be indistinguishable from a flesh and blood product fanboy at first glance. Not all spammers drop the same comments mentioning their product everywhere. You can dilute it with meaningless AI generated banter so the mod has to scroll through a couple pages and connect the dots before deciding whether you're a bot or just an idiot who happens to like some product.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by CuriouslyC on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:43AM (#35043128)
Except that there is a culture of looking for and outing shills in a lot of subs, and since you can see someone's entire post history it's usually not hard to confirm or at least provide solid evidence for it once you suspect it. I had someone out an astroturfer who posted a banal non-response to one of my comments just the other day.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by foepys on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:05AM (#35041110)
You don't need to be the size of Coca Cola to successfully astroturf, there are enough companies specialized in social media marketing.

Take r/mechanicalkeyboards for example, arguably a niche community. The enthusiasts there are very motivated to buy new things and are willing to pay quite a lot of money for them. Place a few of your bots there to promote your artisan keycaps and watch people pay top bucks for them.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by danaris on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:10AM (#35041890)
Spoken like someone in a bubble. "Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded."

Well, if "nobody" goes there, how are the bots able to farm karma? Who's giving them the views and upvotes?

I guarantee you anything that's the "default" is being visited by many, many casual visitors, people not "in the know", and people who don't recognize karma farming bots for what they are.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by moffkalast on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:23AM (#35042877)
I said nobody goes there for advice because there usually isn't any there, we mainly go to those for arguing nonsense and laughing at memes. And I'm not saying that there aren't many advertisements on those, but they are usually painfully obvious.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by ilyt on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:44AM (#35041576)
That looks just like making content tailored to subreddit it is posted, no shit it's popular.

Also how the fuck "Building a hobby-shelter while camping in Kelowna" or some random funny pictures is "astroturfing"?

Re:Google Search Is Dying by hollander on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:45AM (#35039892)
As a reddit-addict this really depends on the subreddit you're using. In /r/askreddit you don't stand a chance that your question will attract serious attention, but there are so many subreddits with small usergroups and enough reactions. In /r/askreddit or other popular subreddits, my answers get reasonable attention, even if I'm not on the reddit timeschedule.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by makeitdouble on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:26AM (#35040658)
When two people say ´reddit´ they might be referencing two completely different worlds.

The prime reason I created a reddit account many moons ago was to get rid of all the default and behemoth subreddits from my feed, as they all looked like incredibly toxic and I´d have jumped through a window if I had to stay in them for more than 5 min. But these subreddits are all of reddit for many other people. And some user might only ever be looking at porn. And some others live in a diy bubbles.

That is to me the beauty of it, but also why it´s difficult to generalize trends. Low karma accounts getting shadowbanned ring nothing in my mind, but as there´s subs where you can only submit post titles ´cat´, there sure must be others were karma is everything.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by ilyt on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:05AM (#35041113)
Entirely depends on subreddit in question

> It does, though. Your karma basically determines the visibility of any new post you try to make. And low-karma or new accounts are de facto shadowbanned.

It's used more as protection from SEO spammers and this is just unfortunate side effect for new users.

Other problem is that karma is global which basically means user on popular subreddits will gain it quickly so any karma-based filtering is doomed to fail anyway

Re:Google Search Is Dying by NBJack on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:23AM (#35041322)
And it's not a great protection system at all. Just like how content generators are gaming Google search, there is a problem now with bots that find what is popular and repost it later (with a wording change) for karma farming.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by wting on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:20PM (#35046224)
> It does, though. Your karma basically determines the visibility of any new post you try to make.

User karma has no impact on the default sort ranking[0]. The source code is available here (as of ~2018): https://github.com/reddit-archive/reddit/blob/master/r2/r2/l...

> And low-karma or new accounts are de facto shadowbanned.

User karma is impacted by mods' use of AutoMod on a per subreddit basis or fraudulent[1] accounts, but otherwise there is no site-wide application of user karma.

Source: I spent some time experimenting and implementing alternative rankings at Reddit.

0: Subreddit hot score, not applicable to logged in users' default feed.

1: Shadow banning (vs direct banning) fraudulent accounts makes it more difficult to reverse engineer signals used to identify malicious accounts.