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Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by mountainriver on Sunday March 05, 2023 @07:56PM (#35036173)
And is Google itself effective? We all copied Google but do we have their problems? Do we need the type of engineers they needed?

Google is beginning to show its age, I’ve seen a number of past coworkers get hired there lately that weren’t effective at their job, but I’m sure they crushed some Leetcode.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by swsieber on Sunday March 05, 2023 @08:34PM (#35036461)
> Google is beginning to show its age,...

Yup. Goodhart's law strikes again. I am curious as to what the next as-of-yet-ungamed effective hiring metric is.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by idontwantthis on Sunday March 05, 2023 @08:44PM (#35036532)
Maybe analytical hobbies. Hire anyone into lockpicking, rock climbing, or music theory.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by neilv on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:21PM (#35036773)
I think the last couple decades of software suggest that all these indicators, if adopted by companies that significant numbers of people wanted to work for, would quickly become checklists of things to do/fake.

See also: college admissions. (No, that kid probably didn't do that volunteering activity because they wanted to help people, but because they were told it was a checklist item, as they were coached through college admissions. And they probably didn't learn anything, and they were coached on what to say about that in the essay. And, normally, actually productive volunteering probably wouldn't have looked like each one of those kids starting their own duplicate initiative so each could spin it as demonstrating leadership. And it's more an option for kids from families well-off enough that the kids didn't have to work jobs that would contribute better to their household income or college expenses. And don't get me started on how the well-to-do decided that "travel" would be a plus on applications.)

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by swsieber on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:53PM (#35037001)
I'd prefer switching metrics every decade to never having a good hiring system.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by throwaway6734 on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:58AM (#35039983)
or introduce some level of randomness to dull the effect of the metrics
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by chiefalchemist on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:49AM (#35041648)
Introduce randomness to see if there are other metrics that might be signals worth considering.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by yifanl on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:34AM (#35042220)
"We only want to hire lucky people, so our hiring council only looked at your resume if everyone flipped a coin and all landed heads"
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by idontwantthis on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:41AM (#35043113)
It worked on Ringworld.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by eastbound on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:27AM (#35038377)
Next level: You take interview vacations, where you work 3 days for every final company in your interview round. It’s an exchange: You check the cushions on the sofas of the HR ad, they check that you can actually take a bugfix to production.

Then they give you your real chair.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by hikingsimulator on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:17AM (#35038662)
Terrible next level, that's unpaid work and it's already a thing in interviewing at some unethical companies.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by KyeRussell on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:11AM (#35041200)
Nobody said unpaid.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by randomswede on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @03:03AM (#35052806)
Even so, it's probably not going to be super-effective, unless each workplace is willing to have enough useful small things that do not require knowing substantial chunks of the existing code base.

It is probably realistic to expect someone to write something useful (although possibly small) in three days. It is less realistic to expect someone to write a useful component integrated in a large system that they have to learn, in three days.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by abenga on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:47AM (#35054697)
This doesn't have to be unpaid.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by diamondage on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:46AM (#35038849)
Surely there is some economy of scale here, where a standardized first round interview'taking a bug fix to production' fits multiple companies. Noone should have to do more than one technical interview
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by bluGill on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:01AM (#35040455)
They need to be contrived bugs. Unpaid work is illegal in the US, and most other 'civilized' counries. Plus you don't want your competitors to send someone to interview just to look at your code.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by AdrianB1 on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:44AM (#35040869)
He said "work", not "unpaid work". Pay that work.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by ghaff on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:18AM (#35042814)
>Unpaid work is illegal in the US

Is that actually true? It's probably uncommon in tech but I understand it's fairly common in creative fields and--while it was a long time ago--I worked a couple unpaid internships when I was in high school in chemistry labs.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by bluGill on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:20PM (#35046218)
The trick is it can't be work, only work like things of no value. You can have unpaid internships so long as you are getting training and not doing valuable work.

A railroad engineer intern can move cars around the yard all day, assembly trains, and other such things. However if they move the car to a loading dock where it is loaded/unloaded that is valuable work and must be paid. If the train they assembly leaves the yard for the next that is valuable work (unless they all make it back to this yard unused).

Most companies choose to pay interns rather than figure out how to not break the rules. A few have a separate intern program where they carefully figure out tasks to assign interns for training. If your intern program did valuable work you should talk to a lawyer.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by fathyb on Sunday March 05, 2023 @08:55PM (#35036608)
Makes me think, the Real Book might be musical equivalent of Leetcode..
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by actually_a_dog on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:13AM (#35038302)
Why not skill at writing 8-legged essays[0] instead? Either way, you're so far away from anything that maps directly on to "is this person likely to succeed as an X level software engineer at Y company" that it's all pretty arbitrary.

Not to mention, you'd have to have a precise and well defined notion of what "analytical hobbies" are. Preferably one that doesn't carry an inherent classist[1] (and maybe even racist or sexist) bias. That part alone seems pretty tough, forget the actual definition part.

---

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-legged_essay

[1]: https://hbr.org/2016/12/research-how-subtle-class-cues-can-b...

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by ShredKazoo on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:51AM (#35038884)
I assume that's a joke? Sounds like going back to manhole covers.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by idontwantthis on Monday March 06, 2023 @04:59AM (#35039255)
I honestly don’t know if I was joking or not but the breadth of replies is interesting.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by KyeRussell on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:10AM (#35041186)
Sounds to me like a monoculture filled with the sorts of people that I just…wouldn’t like working with.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by gedy on Sunday March 05, 2023 @08:52PM (#35036582)
> I’ve seen a number of past coworkers get hired there lately that weren’t effective at their job,

That's the truth for me, I was shocked some of our worst* interns went on to work at Google after the summer.

* Unproductive, slow, needed lots of hand holding

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by ok_dad on Sunday March 05, 2023 @08:56PM (#35036611)
Interns are supposed to be slow, unproductive, and need lots of hand holding! They’re fucking students for fucks sake.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by ZephyrBlu on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:40PM (#35036911)
Curiosity and motivation do not require experience.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by nullspace on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:03PM (#35036659)
Really? Not the parent poster, but have observed the same thing.

All interns need handholding but some need 10x more than others. And yeah, they often end up doing another internship or so at a faang.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by gedy on Sunday March 05, 2023 @09:28PM (#35036822)
We had some awesome interns, very interested in learning and working! I'm talking about those who weren't and surprised Google (and Facebook) hired them soon after.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by Jensson on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:03AM (#35038571)
So how is your interview process better than theirs, since you keep getting these lousy people? I saw many worthless people in the places I worked at before Google, then at Google I didn't see anyone close to that bad, so to me their process seems to work. They were very open about their data around hiring and scoring hires as well, and that data was very clear that the interview they arrived at was the best interview, they tried and experimented a lot and arrived at it.

Alternatively maybe those people were just unmotivated to work for you and spent their internship preparing for Google.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by lanstin on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:42PM (#35037588)
To be cynical, there are no dumb questions, only dumb people. Some people ask the same question over and over, and others have different questions, rather rapidly getting to very interesting questions.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by bluGill on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:03AM (#35040473)
There are many dumb questions. Asking me about ancient Chinese history for example. (this is a particularly dumb question to ask in the context of this thread where it is an off topic question asked to someone who knows very little about the topic)
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by lanstin on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:00PM (#35049029)
Wouldn't this be a natural case of "check Wikipedia"?
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by Shacklz on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:25AM (#35038720)
An intern's productivity sort of lies in "how fast they learn". Can they pick up things by just being pointed into the right directions or do they need everything spoon-fed, in small doses, with repetition, to then still get it wrong?

At least in our place, we do not really expect them to be productive in the usual sense, but they definitely have ample opportunity to give us a feeling of their place on the bell curve.

(as an anecdote: We currently have some 17 year old apprentice which puts some of our seniors to absolute shame, myself included. The amount of motivation, learning hunger, quick thinking and ability to ask the right questions is really astounding, especially given that he essentially just started and has next-to-no education in our area to speak of as of yet)

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by Jensson on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:34AM (#35038421)
Probably ADHD, often makes you unproductive and slow when you aren't in high stakes situations. There is no interview to weed out such people since the problem isn't in their understanding, intelligence or skills.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by l33t233372 on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:14AM (#35041229)
How is laziness differentiated from ADHD?

Too be clear, I’m not accusing you of being lazy, but your description seems to apply to me and I consider myself lazy.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by Jensson on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:52AM (#35042467)
I did consider myself lazy as well and that is what I told people, but then I got pills for ADHD and suddenly I wasn't lazy any longer. So yeah, maybe you aren't lazy and you just have ADHD, or maybe you are lazy, I don't know, but it is worth checking it out. It changed my life, if being lazy is a huge problem in your life I'd suggest to look into ADHD more and maybe try get a diagnosis if it seems to fit.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by arc619 on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:27PM (#35046337)
If you're lazy, you don't care about it. If you care a lot but somehow still need external motivation to get stuff done, it could be ADHD.
Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by CoolGuySteve on Sunday March 05, 2023 @11:09PM (#35037432)
I find it ironic that Google’s search results have been gamed to the point that they’re about as useless as their competitors were 20 years ago but companies are still cargo cult copying a hiring process that has also been gamed to the point of uselessness.

At this point the whiteboard gauntlet seems more indicative of a lack of critical self evaluation than anything, “we only hire the best because we’re the best rah rah”. Miss me with that shit.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by red-iron-pine on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:01AM (#35042602)
There is an implication with this post that Google is dumb or unskilled, or stuck in a cargo cult, but that ain't the truth.

Google's search results aren't because they suck, they're doing it to get maximum money. This is about getting maximum cash for minimum overhead. The Goog is a publicly traded company, they're about selling you the crappiest product at the highest margin. Until someone can come and seriously eat their lunch in search, it will never get better.

To paraphrase Cory Doctorow, "en-shit-ification" is explicitly the point.

They hired the best and the brightest not to make search better, but to find ways to optimally increase the stock price; good products are entirely tangential to that.

Re:How to hire engineering talent without the BS by george574 on Thursday March 09, 2023 @01:15AM (#35078726)
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