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Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by zmmmmm on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:22PM (#34932239)
It's yet another example of the gap that always exists between economic theory and economic practice. In this case, what we have is that every player in the food chain has taken advantage of supply shortage to eke out additional margin along the way. And why not? Your products are in demand and there are buyers who are willing to pay more than the theoretical market price. The actual situation is that even if competition does assert itself eventually it is slow to adjust to changes in the environment AND there is very strong hysteresis: those with the opportunity are fast to put up prices and slow to lower them again to the same level even if prior conditions re-establish themselves.

Most of it goes to the lie that is the premise that interest rates are really the optimal way to control inflation, regardless of the source. When inflation is actually driven by consumers having too much money, fine, go for it. But when its driven by external factors all you are doing is causing misery and maybe adding fuel to the fire as people already maxed out buying essentials are in fact going to seek (require) higher salaries when you add to their cost of living.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by cyanydeez on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:26PM (#34932274)
It's also important to note that growing wealth inequality means you need to seduce fewer customers with these higher prices. It's most obvious with America's pharma industry where the cost to produce seriously outstrips the retail value and the market has zero incentive to make costs obvious and a whole insurance industry and it's companies are the buyers, not the individuals.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by Spooky23 on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:29PM (#34932302)
The other factor is that unchecked consolidation of almost all industries eliminated the “animal spirits” of competition to lower prices.

You see this with gasoline. Refining production is so limited that it takes weeks or months to recover from a price spike.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by jpgvm on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:27PM (#34932282)
Similarly lowering interest rates into the ground when consumers still had plenty of money but supply was constrained probably wasn't a wise move either.

More targeted assistance of just affected industries during the pandemic could have prevented almost all of this.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by stephen_g on Friday February 24, 2023 @11:09PM (#34933792)
True, that was a big part of the problem.

This is one of these “Doesn’t anybody see this? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here” moments - dropping the interest rates didn’t do why we wanted (just pumps up property and equity prices with cheap money but doesn’t actually stimulate the economy), even some countries set them negative which didn’t work either, and raising interest rates has never been really shown to reduce inflation (just that you can raise them high enough to cause a crisis, which causes far more problems, and then hopefully by the time the recovery starts inflation contributors have abated…)

Their whole monetary policy seems to be bunk.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by MrVandemar on Saturday February 25, 2023 @02:43AM (#34934754)
> Their whole monetary policy seems to be bunk.

It's mostly been under the management of a party who straight-out optimise for company profits and screw the little guy (who spent 10 years continually voting for them because Chairman Rupert said so).

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by imtringued on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:45AM (#34935882)
The problem with monetary policy is that there is no way to actually decrease the money supply, other than repaying debt. If there was literally any other mechanism to get rid of excess money, then you could, for example, do helicopter money when there is a recession and do the inverse of helicopter money when there is a boom and never even touch the interest rate.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by okr on Saturday February 25, 2023 @07:17AM (#34936100)
Does that mean, someone would add or take money from anyones bank account? And you can't do anything about it?
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by kasey_junk on Saturday February 25, 2023 @08:40AM (#34936569)
Taxes are one of these mechanisms. It’s just political suicide to vary the tax rate like this.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by gruez on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:56PM (#34932512)
>And why not? Your products are in demand and there are buyers who are willing to pay more than the theoretical market price.

What do you mean "theoretical market price"? What you're saying makes no sense in the context of standard microeconomic theory. If supply is constrained, then microeconemic theory predicts that the market clearing price will go up. Companies can always price their goods at higher than the market clearing price, but microeconomic theory would predict that doing so would result in less profits.

>But when its driven by external factors

What do you think the "external factors" are here? Companies suddenly getting more greedy?

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by RichEO on Friday February 24, 2023 @09:39PM (#34933267)
He's talking about the supply shocks caused largely by the Ukraine/Russia war.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by abigail95 on Friday February 24, 2023 @08:04PM (#34932586)
If you're going to say there's a gap in theory, could you at least explain which economic theory is showing the opposite result here?
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by phkahler on Friday February 24, 2023 @08:21PM (#34932740)
Show me an economist that uses the word hysteresis. Their models are quite primitive IMHO and not because they're powerful like the ones used in thermodynamics, but they act like they are.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by ryan93 on Friday February 24, 2023 @08:43PM (#34932885)
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by marcosdumay on Friday February 24, 2023 @09:25PM (#34933174)
Hum... They all seem to say "stickiness" instead, what means the same thing. Modern macroeconomics is all about it, or, well, at least the mainstream macroeconomics is all about it.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by imtringued on Saturday February 25, 2023 @07:02AM (#34936008)
What irritates me so much is that all of these things are bolted on afterthoughts. People point at their "beautiful" perfectly liquid models and then when you tell them the real world is "ugly" and illiquid they get angry and tell you, you are wrong.

I mean the most classic example is the theoretical barter economy that doesn't exist because you need money to lower transaction costs for a high degree of the division of labor (which isn't disputed). The reason for that is that economists came up with this theoretical model and the text books want to teach barter first and then money which gives the wrong impression that barter economies actually existed. No, people either managed the economy the way we manage it internally within families and corporations or they straight up used a commodity as their money or some hard to forge symbol like precious metals. There is not much in-between because barter is inconvenient as hell and it causes social difficulties because the fairness of trades has to be evaluated very carefully, opening up the potential for conflict.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by cuchoi on Friday February 24, 2023 @09:57PM (#34933368)
It is a pretty common concept among economists. IIRC it is even covered in Mankiw's Introduction to Economics textbook.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by abigail95 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:42AM (#34934225)
this gives me nothing

i need an answer to

>yet another example of the gap that always exists between economic theory and economic practice

what is the practice and what is the theory?

edit:

if the person is saying food prices are sticky upwards, then they need to provide evidence for that because that's a very strong claim

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by neilwilson on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:32AM (#34934424)
https://www.newcastle.edu.au/profile/bill-mitchell

"We have known about the concept and relevance of hysteresis since the 1980s. In terms of the academic work, I was one of the earliest contributors to the hysteresis literature in the world. I published several articles on the topic in the 1980s that came out of my PhD research as I was searching for solutions to the dominant view in the profession that the Phillips curve constraint prevented full employment from being sustained "

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?m=20200629

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by lauraste1 on Friday February 24, 2023 @08:47PM (#34932910)
Google the Phillips curve - it's from the 1960s
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by abigail95 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:41AM (#34934218)
explain why the phillips curve shows the opposite result to "every player in the food chain has taken advantage of supply shortage"
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by neilwilson on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:39AM (#34934464)
Post Keynesian theory and endogenous money show how it works.

Firms don't charge a 'market price'. They put a mark up on costs and sell as much as they can at that price.

In other words marginal productivity theory is nonsense.

When you do that, and you get a supply crunch as we have now, then prices will go up as we are seeing.

It's fairly obvious. I will try to sell my stuff for the highest price I can get for it. Your only choice as a buyer is to go somewhere else, or refuse to buy.

Prices are controlled by excess capacity to supply. When that capacity vanishes, particularly amongst needed goods and services, you get price gouging.

It's similar to overstretching a spring. We have damaged the supply side and it won't go back to its prior path.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by MrVandemar on Saturday February 25, 2023 @02:45AM (#34934765)
> refuse to buy

Few do this. Television tells them they want things, and they'll get angry if they can't have them. So they put it on their credit-cards and kick the can down the road.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by theonlybutlet on Saturday February 25, 2023 @03:55AM (#34935082)
Once again information assymetry rears its head. Many people continued buying under the assumption it was cost inflation, they definitely would've purchased less if they knew they were merely being milked for profit. The article even addresses this.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by JumpCrisscross on Friday February 24, 2023 @08:06PM (#34932609)
> the premise that interest rates are really the optimal way to control inflation

Economic theory for at least two centuries has recognised the outsized power of fiscal policy relative to monetary.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by mdorazio on Friday February 24, 2023 @08:40PM (#34932864)
> When inflation is actually driven by consumers having too much money, fine, go for it. But when its driven by external factors

And when it's both, as was the case in 2021-2022?

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by Aunche on Friday February 24, 2023 @10:38PM (#34933611)
>Most of it goes to the lie that is the premise that interest rates are really the optimal way to control inflation

There are only 3 ways to decrease inflation:

- Interest rates

- Price controls. This tends to have a lot of harmful side effects, such as the necessity of rationing and discentivizing the production of whatever you're price controlling. You only really do this for a few goods, so this doesn't help overall inflation much, if at all.

- Effective policy and investments increasing, the quantity or quality of goods and services. This is perhaps the "best" way to decrease inflation, but it takes years, if not decades to materialize. More importantly, it requires the elected members of government to formulate and agree on, which unfortunately is becoming increasingly rare.

>all you are doing is causing misery and maybe adding fuel to the fire as people already maxed out buying essentials are in fact going to seek (require) higher salaries when you add to their cost of living.

This is moot because when interest rates were 0, inflation was outpacing wage increases. Let's say that wasn't the case and inflation was 10% and wages increase 10%. All evens out right? Not really. The problem is that not the people can take advantage of an inflation-induced wage increase. Younger people, with fewer commitments are able to job hop to a better employer or prepare to negotiate for a pay raise. Meanwhile, other people don't have the bandwidth to do so or are retired and depend of fix income, but they still need to face the costs of inflation, and these are also the people who are the most vulnerable.

So in the end, all we can do is raise interest rates.

Also, Australia doesn't really have a choice, because the US is set on raising interest rates, so any country that doesn't follow will have their currency severely devalued.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by naasking on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:54AM (#34934260)
> Price controls. This tends to have a lot of harmful side effects, such as the necessity of rationing and discentivizing the production of whatever you're price controlling. You only really do this for a few goods, so this doesn't help overall inflation much, if at all.

The necessity of rationing assumes that demand is outstripping supply. That's not the case when corporations are price gouging. Egg farms are not selling more eggs than ever before, nor would they if prices were exactly what they were before COVID.

Furthermore the harmful side effects of price controls are often exaggerated. Again, egg farmers are not going to suddenly just kill all of their chickens and switch to building datacenters because we only implemented price controls on necessities like food. Nixon's price controls went fine, as but one example.

Finally, your solution of raising rates does not decrease the need for basic staples like food, so it's not a solution at all. Who cares if inflation for Tesla's or SUVs are at 8% or higher, that's a rich person problem. What matters is the inflation for necessary goods and services, like food and shelter, and your suggested "solution" doesn't really solve anything. All it does is maybe put people who need the money out of work.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by Aunche on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:37AM (#34934452)
> Again, egg farmers are not going to suddenly just kill all of their chickens and switch to building datacenters because we only implemented price controls on necessities like food. Nixon's price controls went fine, as but one example.

Funny you say that...

> Ranchers stopped shipping their cattle to the market, farmers drowned their chickens, and consumers emptied the shelves of supermarkets.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/minitextlo...

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by naasking on Saturday February 25, 2023 @08:06AM (#34936377)
Notice how the first round of price controls went just fine though. Like interest rates, price controls are not a hammer to apply indiscriminately. You have to apply them judiciously and for short periods. Unlike interest rates, at least they don't depress the whole economy, lead to recessions and disproportionately harm the poor.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by pas on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:05AM (#34935679)
Hungary tried price controls when this inflation cycle started. It still has some in effect.

Hungary has more than two times the inflation of the EU average. The highest in the EU.

Price controls on flour and gas/petrol led to people buying a lot more compared to supply. This led to gas stations closing. People started baking more, but price of bread exploded because folks bought flour and bakeries were in a tight spot (I don't remember the exact chain of events).

Of course grocery shops increased the price of everything else relatively to make up for the loss on the controlled items.

Clearly, tackling inflation should be independent from providing basic necessities like food and shelter and healthcare.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by epups on Saturday February 25, 2023 @09:19AM (#34936850)
Nixon price controls did not work, they led to stagflation and a bunch of other issues. In fact it is hard to find any example of price controls working, and a lot of evidence of the opposite.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by jackvalentine on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:16AM (#34934348)
Could allow the reserve bank to change the mandatory rate of retirement savings in Australia - currently 10.5% of their wages.

It'd have the same effect as interest rate rises in removing consumer demand without the kinda icky feeling of just sending that money to the income statement of a bank as mortgage payment increases.

Obviously not a silver bullet, but perhaps another tool to make available.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by thriftwy on Saturday February 25, 2023 @05:03AM (#34935421)
When a person has an open mortgage, pressuring them into making "voluntary but mandatory" retirement plan is financially devastating.

Let's rip the young off so that we can prop the securities up and help the banks!

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by jackvalentine on Saturday February 25, 2023 @05:09AM (#34935443)
It’d be done in lieu of interest rate rises that hit the pocketbook of people anyway. Most mortgages in Australia aren’t fixed rate.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by js8 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:29AM (#34934415)
Not true, you can also (selectively) increase taxes to take out excessive money supply.

In the case of profit-driven inflation, you could tax excess profits.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by drekipus on Saturday February 25, 2023 @05:47AM (#34935601)
That doesn't take money out from supply
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by wizofaus on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:19AM (#34935749)
Presumably it effectively does if the extra cash raised isn't spent.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by makomk on Saturday February 25, 2023 @08:29AM (#34936509)
The general goal of all the windfall taxes I've seen proposed is precisely that the money used goes back to ordinary people so it can be spent instead of supposedly being wasted sitting around in the bank accounts of the super-rich. This does not, of course, actually help with the underlying problem that there is too much money chasing too few goods and services - it has the opposite effect by increasing the amount of money whilst disincentivizing companies from trying to expand production. In order to use tax to take out excessive money supply, that tax needs to come out of the pockets of ordinary workers and consumers who'd otherwise spend the money buying stuff, either through an increase in income tax or sales tax/VAT. Usually I think income tax would be used. This is incredibly politically unpopular and an election-loser since people see that the government is taking their money whilst they can't afford stuff and some corporations are making big profits.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by js8 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @08:48AM (#34936624)
Why would giving ordinary people disincentivize companies from expanding production? Quite the opposite, people now have extra money to spent, so they should get the loans going for investment expansion!

The last sentence is exactly why you need to tax the big owners and corporations and not the workers, because they control most of the additional money supply in the profit-driven inflation.

(That being said, and as was noted, of course government can also run a surplus with the windfall tax, and that takes the money out of circulation entirely. However, as I explain above, inflation can be more complex, it might be money oversupply in only parts of the network, not the whole network.)

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by wizofaus on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:16PM (#34941431)
I assume GP meant the act of imposing windfall taxes - if you know for certain that x% of your profits will be eaten up in taxes, but you can only make some sort of rough guess at how much more demand there might be as a result of cash handouts etc., there's probably not a great motivation to expand production.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by js8 on Sunday February 26, 2023 @12:24AM (#34943291)
Isn't that just restating a (probably) truism that investment into financial bubbles tends to be easier than expanding real production?

Where does the extra profit go (in the absence of windfall tax)? I doubt it goes to expanding production, because without windfall tax, you won't see demand change (and, btw, with windfall tax you don't have to estimate, you will directly see customers having more money to spend). So it will go into stock buybacks, real estate and other ways to inflate asset bubbles. These are seemingly easier ways to park money than to make actual real investment decision of expanding certain production.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by rybosworld on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:03AM (#34935671)
Yes, it does.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by lifeisstillgood on Saturday February 25, 2023 @05:54AM (#34935631)
This (being a MMT model). It's interesting to compare the phrase above something like "good inflation control is to grow the economy to match [the amount of money in the economy]"

whereas just removing the money would also work.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by js8 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @08:43AM (#34936591)
Wasn't really aware that this is MMT (I think it follows just from the nature of money as a loan), but.. I don't think matching growth to the amount of money in economy is always a good idea, especially when we are talking about a deliberate recession.

To me, there are two economies - the "real" one, which is what goods and services people produce, and what material inputs they need, and a "virtual" one, which describes savings, loans, the flow of money, and all the property relationships people have.

Normally both are mostly in sync (because trade is bidirectional, flow of goods and services one way, and flow of money and property the other way), but in the case of inflation, you have nominally less goods and services to flow than you have of money (might be caused for different reasons, money being injected, supply shock, etc.).

Now, when economists talk about decreasing grow to match money supply in the economy (through e.g. higher interest rates), what they really mean is to restricting the real economic flow of goods and services in order to match the virtual flow of financing.

The problem with the idea is, the virtual economy is the thing that should really be fixed, not the real one. Breaking the real economy implies that means of production will have to be rebuilt at some point in the future to match the demand again; for example, if you close a factory, and let everybody go, it will be additional effort in the future to start the factory again, rehire the qualified people, and re(dis)cover the institutional knowledge lost in the process.

Whereas adjusting the virtual economy means just changing people's expectations, because that's what money (and other finance assets) are, a share of goods and services obtainable in the future. I had this much money, and I expected to buy 20 eggs for what I got, but it was suddenly discovered that real economy is not able to provide everybody with the money to spend on eggs with 20 eggs, but only say 10 eggs. So my expectations of the future have to change, in order for virtual economy to be adjusted.

So I would argue, breaking the real economy to match the broken virtual economy is always worse for the society as a whole in the long-term, because that means that the real production will have to be rebuilt, instead of just adjusting everybody's expectations to a new reality.

The reason why (neoliberal) economists are in love with the idea of recession rather than inflation is, of course, political. They don't want expectations to be adjusted, because that means all the rich people (and other people with financial assets and other savings) will become poorer and will have to reenter the investment competition again. While people who mostly live from labor (who are often borrowers in the modern economy as well) will be hit less by inflation than the recession (possibility of unemployment and total loss of income). So reducing inflation at the expense of employment and growth is essentially curtailing the production of the economy as a whole so that the incumbent property owners could keep their power structure. It's actually very anti-competitive and anti-free market. (But nobody really wants a free market anyway.)

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by Aunche on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:08PM (#34938259)
In theory, this could be deflationary, but there are a few reasons this probably wouldn't be effective.

- It usually takes at least a year before tax changes are proposed before they take effect

- They are always accompanied by spending increases that neutralize any potential deflationary effects

- You actually can't actually increase taxes that much. For example, the US Fed has quantitatively tightened roughly $600 billion in the past 6 months. The Biden corporate tax increases are estimated to bring in $50 billion, and windfall tax proposals also tend to hover around that order of magnitude.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by Too on Saturday February 25, 2023 @02:49AM (#34934783)
Loans being secured with assumption of ever increasing property value is one big contributor to the current inflation. Especially once everybody started using their inflated house value as downpayment for their second house ad infinitum.

I’m sure someone smart can come up with many better ways to tame this, other than just turning the inflation knob.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by megablast on Saturday February 25, 2023 @02:59AM (#34934822)
> ot really. The problem is that not the people can take advantage of an inflation-induced wage increase

Sure, but inflation doesn't affect everyone equally. Rent increases or mortgages increases are part of inflation, but do not affect everyone. Nor is the price of many goods if you don't buy them.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by landswipe on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:06AM (#34935685)
Some people are also suggesting progressively decreasing the capital gains discount on property, to force the housing prices down over time and address supply issues.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by rightbyte on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:08AM (#34935696)
> There are only 3 ways to decrease inflation: ... - Interest rates ...

Why is this taken as a fact? You hand out money to people with money. It is a zero sum game.

The reason you need to increase rates with inflation is to make it viable to sit on the currency. Otherwise you need to sell it as fast as possible to avoid inflation.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by CraigJPerry on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:20AM (#34935757)
>> There are only 3 ways to decrease inflation

No expression of confidence intervals, no need for error bars on this statement? As repeatable as gravity perhaps?

If we were to honestly restate the above with reference to uncertainty, we’d struggle just to get past the idea that inflation is measurable in any accurate way, never mind that it can be deliberately influenced so easily.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by naveen99 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @08:10AM (#34936390)
Could balance the budget. If you accidentally run a surplus just refund as tax credit.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by rcme on Friday February 24, 2023 @11:04PM (#34933764)
> Your products are in demand and there are buyers who are willing to pay more than the theoretical market price.

What does this even mean? How can buyers be willing to pay more than the market price and the sellers still make more money? If such a case were to occur, it wouldn't be correct to call the old price the "theoretical market price." Basically, what you're describing is literally inflation: the purchasing power of money has decreased, so people are willing to spend more of it to buy their goods. Sellers recognize that the demand curve has shifted, and raise their price accordingly.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by swatcoder on Friday February 24, 2023 @11:29PM (#34933913)
I think the OP is suggesting that there’s a “natural” market price that was perturbed by an extraordinary and temporary event, but that skewed/irrational customer perceptions and market inefficiencies let current sellers milk that perturbation for longer than the original disruption would theoretically warrant. And that this behavior can become a ratcheting change that drives price inflation entirely through profit-taking.

I’m sure there’s developed economic theory around this phenomenon and more sophisticated language than they used, but it felt like they got the point across.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by skissane on Friday February 24, 2023 @11:34PM (#34933941)
> I’m sure there’s developed economic theory around this phenomenon and more sophisticated language than they used, but it felt like they got the point across.

Isn’t this what economists call “elasticity”?

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by rcme on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:31AM (#34934187)
That doesn’t really make sense. Raising prices not supported by demand would result in less profit in theory. For instance, prices may go up in a supply disruption, but the loss in sales means suppliers earn less. So if prices were artificially high, it would actually be more profitable to lower them.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by naasking on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:43AM (#34934226)
They wouldn't lose sales on necessary staples like eggs, milk and such, all of which have seen significant increases.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by rcme on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:21AM (#34934375)
Demand for milk and eggs is definitely elastic. And we're seeing inflation in other goods that aren't staples as well.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by candiodari on Saturday February 25, 2023 @05:16AM (#34935474)
Not at the price points they're at. If milk halved in price, would milk consumption significantly rise? Not at all.

So yes, milk consumption is price elastic, but not at these prices. They're too low.

Same goes for eggs, bread, ...

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by rcme on Saturday February 25, 2023 @11:14AM (#34937736)
I could definitely see milk consumption increasing if prices were lower. Tons of products use cheap fats that could use butter instead if it were cheaper. If milk products were cheap enough, you could use it as animal feed. If it was really cheap you could burn it for energy. Also worth noting is that the dairy industry is subsidized by the government, so the amount of milk being consumed is already higher than you would expect if the price was set at the market price.

For eggs, similar things could occur. Soy lecithin is a common emulsifier, but could be replaced by egg lecithin if eggs were cheaper than soy.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by abigail95 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:39AM (#34934211)
the theory and evidence behind it shows the opposite, "sticky prices" are usually always sticky in one direction.

wages is the biggest one, very hard to decrease wages but very easy to increase.

consumer goods are the same, it's easy to discount your stock to sell it - but if you raise it you have to deal with "price gouging" and "profiteering" and "causing inflation".

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by ThreeBeanPizza on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:24AM (#34934155)
The answer to the question of paying above market price is market power. When firms have market power beyond perfect competition they adjust prices above the theoretical competitive level where marginal cost = price. A change in supply generally, ie shrinking, gives firms more market power to charge higher prices => inflation. Intrest rates really don't touch market power so it is pretty fair to criticize interest rake hikes as a solution here. Intrest rate hikes also slow down business investment which makes supply less responsive. But it REALY depends on the market. If you are importing a lot of goods from compaies with a lot of market power right now, ex: oil, your domestic government and the fed of your country can't do much to fight inflation other then to tamp down economic activity overall with interest rate. What is really the issue is government policy to combat inflation has fallen by the wayside since feds are more responsive.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by rcme on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:27AM (#34934403)
> Intrest rate hikes also slow down business investment which makes supply less responsive.

That's kind of a simplification. Interest rates affect business investment. But many kinds of business investments are just "business" for other companies. E.g. when TSMC invests in building a new chip fab, they buy EUV systems from ASML. ASML uses that money to pay their suppliers and employees, etc. Also, interest rates affect real estate prices, which affects real estate development, which is a big source of employment. Government debt is also more expensive, so high interest rates also apply downward pressure on government spending.

I agree that there's too much market consolidation, and that isn't impacted much by interest rates.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by abigail95 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:44AM (#34934231)
If I ask you a better tool to use than interest rates (nor deficit reduction either, which is being done) - are you going to MMT me? Is it worth my time to ask?

And do you mean to say that mean interest rates should be lower than they are now?

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by neilwilson on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:27AM (#34934405)
"When inflation is actually driven by consumers having too much money, fine, go for it."

Except that interest rates don't really affect that either [0]

Inflation is always, everywhere, a lack of competition problem.

Firms will charge what they can for their output. Inflation is causes by people paying that price because there isn't another alternative in the market, and 'no deal' isn't an option.

[0]: https://new-wayland.com/blog/interest-price-spiral/

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by SamPatt on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:37AM (#34934457)
What is this nonsense?

Inflation is always due to a lack of competition? Where on earth is the evidence for such an assertion (I didn't see anything in the linked article)?

Inflation is a monetary phenomenon, it's not a mystery at all. Governments print too much money and then it's worth less. History is full of examples.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by hgomersall on Saturday February 25, 2023 @02:17AM (#34934622)
Except that the evidence shows that money supply increase doesn't necessarily lead to inflation. Countries that go through hyperinflation always have a systematic underlying problem that they use money creation to try to fix. "Ah ha!" declare the monetarists, "evidence for our assertion that money supply is the cause of inflation", conveniently ignoring all the counter examples.

The point of the GP post is that competition is how prices are reduced. There's buckets of economic theory that's at least as robust at the monetarist assertions that shows that prices drop when competition works properly. Every issue that underpins price rises is effectively a failure of competition. There are always winners from inflation:

https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2021/11/24/the-truth-abo...

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by refurb on Saturday February 25, 2023 @04:05AM (#34935129)
Thats a terrible article.

The example of oranges going up in price and apples down is not inflation.

Inflation is an overall erosion of buying power.

When oil prices rise that’s not inflation, although prices might rise.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by hgomersall on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:00AM (#34935656)
Apples and oranges were just an example to illustrate the problem with the CPI, which is what most people mean when they say "inflation", after which the US CPI is used extensively, including lots of historic data on variance. I can only conclude you didn't read the whole article or you're making a rhetorical point in lieu of an argument because the conclusions are uncomfortable.

I actually agree that price rises like oil are not really inflation - what Keynes would call semi inflation. Regardless, oil price rises were not due to money supply and the subsequent monetary shenanigans are just economic theatre (and even that is being questioned at the inner sanctum: https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/feds/files/2021062pap... )

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by imtringued on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:49AM (#34935913)
But we don't have neat measurements that differentiate between supply side and demand side inflation.

Honestly the 70s inflation and the 20s inflation were both caused by the same thing, supply side price shocks in oil prices.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by refurb on Saturday February 25, 2023 @07:07AM (#34936042)
It’s not oil shocks because the timing doesnt work out.

Like inflation this time started before the Ukraine War and run up in oil prices.

Same in the 70’s, inflation had already doubled by 1970 but the oil shock didnt happen until 1973.

You could argue it makes inflation worse, but it wasnt the cause.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by kasey_junk on Saturday February 25, 2023 @08:44AM (#34936606)
That implies there is a single factor that “causes” inflation. That’s not true. There are always inflationary and deflationary impacts on prices.

Oil and boomers leaving the workforce and covid derailing shipping and monetary policy and 1000 other things can all be pushing up prices at the same time.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by refurb on Saturday February 25, 2023 @08:35PM (#34942208)
But prices going up alone is not inflation.

“Inflation is a general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money.”

The key is general. Increases in prices of select items due to supply or demand is not inflation.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by kasey_junk on Sunday February 26, 2023 @12:58AM (#34943461)
All general means in that sentence is that the price increasing factors are more prevalent than the price decreasing ones.

If there are several structural issues (eg greatest workforce change in 3 generations, war in Europe, worldwide pandemic, etc) they can all contribute to a general inflationary (or deflationary) trend.

It’s a very particular economic school that says only monetary policy causes inflation. And we have years and years of loose policy that didn’t put inflation on the front burner for economists to argue about.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by refurb on Sunday February 26, 2023 @02:23AM (#34943766)
All general means in that sentence is that the price increasing factors are more prevalent than the price decreasing ones.

It doesn't. Inflation is an erosion of value of the currency.

General means "across the board" because the currency is worth less.

Sure, if there is a glut of apples and the price drops you may not notice the inflation baked into the price, but it's there.

And if there is a shortage of oranges the price may jump higher than inflation, but that doesn't mean inflation is higher.

People seem to be confusing general prices changes due to other factors with inflation. It's not inflation unless the currency is worth less.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by kasey_junk on Sunday February 26, 2023 @08:33AM (#34945399)
You’re arguing circularly. Currencies are worth less when things cost more. Things cost more when prices increase.

If a central committee increased the price on everything without changing the monetary supply that would still be inflation. Similarly if the invisible hand does it or if there is broad collusion amongst producers.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by refurb on Sunday February 26, 2023 @07:55PM (#34951657)
Its not circular because its different drivers of price.

If gas prices rise the purchasing power of my dollar remains the same for most items.

If inflation goes up, my dollar buys less of everything.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by landswipe on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:09AM (#34935703)
Australia's problem is inflated property prices, it's money being generated out of the air. This is a disaster for renters and is creating disparity. Boomers and older gen X are or will be cashed up to their eyeballs after offloading one or two investment properties, this has happened over the last few years.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by vinyl7 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @07:49AM (#34936256)
I think it's going to be worse. Boomers think their house is worth million dollars today, but in 5-10 years when more of them start to retire, they will find out that a) millenials and younger can't afford their inflated prices and b) there are no other boomers to trade houses with. So if they rely on their house to be a retirement fund....that might not exist when they actually retire.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by brnt on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:39AM (#34934465)
What makes economics a weak science, weaker than many other humanities, is the habitual absence of experimental evidence. It's of course hard to have a number of double blind histories of the world economy, yet that is what it takes to be a hard science. If you accept that it never can be (many economists try hard to pretend otherwise!), then you have to accept (again, many don't) that building mathematical models for human behavior (without rigorous validation) is no more scientific then some of the worst stereotypes people have for fields like social sciences. Yet, economics _is_ a social science, through and through. Just because currency let's you calculate does not make it different.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by uonpopular_th on Saturday February 25, 2023 @04:25AM (#34935232)
I used to agree until I saw what has happened to biology in the last few years.

Economics is a science as good as any other. It's just that a lot of people with a lot of money want it to say something so it does. No science is insulated from its practitioners being bought out and the few with principles being silenced.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by sethaurus on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:25AM (#34935784)
> I used to agree until I saw what has happened to biology in the last few years.

I'm missing the context here — could you expand on what's happened to biology?

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by uonpopular_th on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:32AM (#34935822)
The bureaucrats who should have been enabling and coordinating scientists instead decided what the policy should be for Covid19 and ruined the lives/careers of anyone who did not fall in line.

The worst of these decisions by far was deciding that covid was spread by aerosols and not airborne: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00925-7

This was nothing short of Lysenkoism in the 21st century.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by lordnacho on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:09AM (#34935701)
We do get observational evidence, the only problem is it tells us the opposite of what we thought, eg minimum wage evidence contradicts what theory would say.

Somehow this doesn't seem to matter though, we still teach the theory.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by imtringued on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:36AM (#34935839)
It is actually very easy to build a theory that disproves the idea of minimumg wage affecting employment.

If we assume the economy is already in perfect equilibrium then raising the minimum wage will cause inflation but the wages will adjust upwards with the same coefficient vs the minimum wage.

Another factor is that if you give money to people who haven't met their basic needs yet is that they will spend their money faster which means it circulates faster which will generate another employment opportunity. This is effectively a scheduling problem akin to starvation in process/thread scheduling in the kernel. If you ignore a specific thread too much then it can block other threads and result in underutilization of resources.

The latter tells you that you shouldn't prioritize the needs of the wealthy so that "wealth trickles down".

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by jvmfjvfjvf on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:41AM (#34935862)
A $50 minimum wage wouldn't affect unemployment? Why not make it $100?
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by lordnacho on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:54AM (#34935953)
If it works at $100, why not?

As long as you're clear about what tradeoffs you're making, and as a society we still want no employment effect, if it works at $100, what's the problem?

You only have something to discuss if it's clear that unemployment will rise, and even so you need to decide how much is tolerable in exchange for whatever you get out of raising the minimum wage.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by sokoloff on Saturday February 25, 2023 @10:02AM (#34937158)
Do you have even the slightest doubt that unemployment would rise significantly if the minimum wage were suddenly raised to $100/hr? I am certain that it would.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by lordnacho on Saturday February 25, 2023 @02:35PM (#34939687)
My guess is it would. But the point isn't whether it should be $100, my point is we should use evidence to tell us what we're trading for what. If it's $100 minimum and great depression, I want to know that. If it's $100 and unemployment grows by 2%, I want to know that.

If we don't use evidence we choose blindly.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by imtringued on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:29AM (#34935805)
>the habitual absence of experimental evidence.

You can run economic experiments. That isn't the problem. The bigger problem is the unstated assumption of a perfectly liquid economy even in the absence of money and the fact that the mathematical models are supposed to drive reality and not the other way around. Homo sapiens is supposed to mimic homo economics.

Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by jvmfjvfjvf on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:46AM (#34935893)
Do you make the same claim about climate science?
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by barfingclouds on Sunday February 26, 2023 @02:05AM (#34943709)
Well can’t you observe past behavior with great detail? How would that be soft?
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by imtringued on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:23AM (#34935772)
I wish central banks followed MMT and instead of interest rates they introduced the concept of minimum annual redemption. If the central bank wants to lower inflation without raising the interest rate it instead increases the minimum redemption rate. What this means is that your loan has to shrink by x% annually. The interest payments you would be paying instead are used to pay back the loan/destroy money faster. Interest doesn't destroy money, it circulates through the economy once so it is neutral on inflation. Higher interest rates mean higher monthly payments which means less demand for loans but the minimum redemption rate does the same thing but also destroys money faster so it eliminates inflation faster.
Re:Analysis finds Australia’s inflation being driven by comp... by roenxi on Saturday February 25, 2023 @07:57AM (#34936312)
> ... even if competition does assert itself eventually it is slow ...

This analysis is not accounting for the risk that businesses face in the current environment. Australia has recently put a lot of pressure on small businesses. I still see empty store fronts every day. It is likely competition is slow because all the people who could compete are weighing up the odds of their business being shut down and not liking their chances.

In fact, the idea that inflation is being 'driven' by profits is foolish. Profits are a result of market conditions - inflation was caused by mass disruption of the economy combined with money printing. The people who benefited the most from that were big businesses but they weren't in the driver's seat for what was going on.