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Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Sunday February 19, 2023 @10:58AM (#34858638)
I don't think this is going to 'revolutionise' anything really. It is just another friction point and part to fail or need maintenance. It is an attempt for Shimano to look relevant.

I have the wireless electronic sram shifting on my 1x Lauf. It is kind of expensive, but amazing and worth the simplicity of it all. It just works and shifts perfectly every time.

I could never go back to cables. The revolution will be to figure out ways to make this same electronic shifting technology less expensive so that it can be installed on every non-e-bike out there.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by sasawpg on Sunday February 19, 2023 @11:32AM (#34859015)
I’ve have/had mech SRAM, mech Shimano, SRAM Red AXS eTap and the new Ultegra Di2. Well maintained (change cables every couple years), mech just works too and has crisp shifting. While I love electronic and won’t go back to mech on some of my bikes, mech has its place. It has not left me stranded with a dead battery and it hasn’t entered crash mode during a cross race. Mech also won’t brick a $1000 derailleur after a firmware upgrade (it magically came back to life 2 months later, after I had bought a replacement).

I do agree with your first point, I don’t see much revolutionary here.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Sunday February 19, 2023 @11:37AM (#34859079)
> It has not left me stranded

Not much different than a mech cable snapping or the derailleur not being adjusted correctly by a tiny set screw and the chain ending up in your spokes.

Shit has catastrophic failures... that's never going to stop being a problem.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by sasawpg on Sunday February 19, 2023 @11:41AM (#34859123)
Mech cable snapping vs forgetting to charge the battery? Yes, end user error with the battery, but I’ve had exactly 0 cables snap and I put my bikes through hell.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Sunday February 19, 2023 @11:58AM (#34859343)
I've had a cable snap in a race.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by sasawpg on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:06PM (#34859455)
I just watched a NorCal video where guy had to spend all race in little ring because it snapped at the start line. Ouch!
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by wmitty on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:24PM (#34859647)
As long as you have access to a phillips screwdriver, you aren't stuck in the little ring - you can tighten the high limit screw to pick your one gear (at least from the higher ones).
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by sasawpg on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:29PM (#34859695)
(Replying to wmitty) it happened to him at the start line. His choice was between DNS or little ring.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by skeeter2020 on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:14PM (#34859544)
I've never had a rear derailleur cable "snap"; they stretch, fray and may eventually break right at the pinch point but these are either slow delays with obvious warnings or easily fixed on the trail. Compared to a connectivity or battery issue? They don't have nearly as high of likelyhood.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by sasawpg on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:19PM (#34859602)
I’ve seen cable breaks happen, though not frequently. I’ve also seen chains break a lot more frequently, I know of 5-6 instances where it happened last year alone locally. All of these were a result of complete lack of maintenance as you point out, though I suppose it would be possible for a newer component to not show signs of wear and still fail.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by Steltek on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:03PM (#34859418)
Electronic shifting is everything I don't want on a bike.

- Another battery to recharge

- Proprietary battery format making replacements difficult

- Needing an app to make simple adjustments. Hopefully it runs and is still compatible after 10+ years of ownership!

Bike components are wonders of precision machining and modern materials but conceptually, they have a beautiful simplicity. Not to get too "give up programming for woodworking" but all of that goes flying out the window the moment you add a proprietary wireless protocol and closed hardware in the middle of it.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by sasawpg on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:16PM (#34859565)
Index adjustment on SRAM AXS can be done on the fly from the shifters. Or from the app as you ride without stopping. Try that with cables.

The battery replacement is the real issue as technology gets older. Though to be honest, at some stage it gets more difficult to find parts for any system. I started to run into challenges sourcing several replacement parts for a 8-9 year old bike that had 10 speed Shimano group set, so it got sold and replaced. Batteries are not much different really.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by runamok on Sunday February 19, 2023 @02:38PM (#34861026)
Barrel adjusters near the controls are a thing though not all bikes have them.

Example: https://www.amazon.com/Jagwire-Inline-Indexed-Tension-Adjust...

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by jjav on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @12:09AM (#34876918)
> I started to run into challenges sourcing several replacement parts for a 8-9 year old bike that had 10 speed Shimano group set

I can't say I've had any problems with getting maintenance parts for my 2004 (19 years old) Shimano XTR mountain bike.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Sunday February 19, 2023 @01:05PM (#34860104)
I haven't opened the app since I got the bike... about 2 years ago. You don't need the app to make adjustments... I also haven't made any adjustments in 2 years, so there is that too.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by wizofaus on Sunday February 19, 2023 @02:49PM (#34861119)
That anyone would think 2 years is a long time for a part not to need adjustment is a symptom of 21st century thinking surely. I'd also suspect you're not riding 100s of km of hilly terrain every week (I do, and have definitely needed to make adjustments, but no more often than on mechanical shifters).
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Monday February 20, 2023 @01:38PM (#34871196)
2 years of no adjustments on any bike, is pretty unheard of, regardless of technology involved. Cables stretch, e-shifting gets rid of that issue... there really isn't anything to get out of alignment there.

I've been riding and racing bikes since I was 15 years old and I'm nearly 50 now.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by m463 on Sunday February 19, 2023 @11:54AM (#34859286)
I like shimano. I have an early di2 and loved the perfect shifting. But I have always wondered why wireless is even a thing - it just seems like a way to spread out batteries everywhere and allow signal variability to creep in.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by justinator on Sunday February 19, 2023 @11:56AM (#34859316)
People like clean cockpits, and threading cables and wires through the headset is a PITA if you ever need to adjust the stem, handlebars, fork, etc.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:10PM (#34859499)
That's exactly it. I have two "cables" on my bike now and that is it... for the disc brakes. It is super clean and simple.

The batteries in the levers last a long time since they are just used for a button press. They are worth it. Never had an issue with signal or shifting.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by justinator on Sunday February 19, 2023 @11:55AM (#34859302)
Can you expand on your idea of why you think Shimano doesn't look relevant now? Not to play favorites, but they seem to be the biggest manufacturer of high-end bike parts in the world. On road, every World Tour team, save 3 are running Shimano. Campagnolo seems the company that's becoming irrelevant, with SRAM being second, but doing some interesting stuff.

In my experience, jockey pulleys don't add too much friction, as they're not under a great amount of force and don't fail all that often - for the same reasons. It's the derailleur arm itself that's very likely to take damage from abuse (by bending out of spec).

I would say the use of a clutch on a rear derailleur - something your SRAM 1x most certainly has, leaks more watts (tho v. v. little) - the compromise is certainly worth is, especially for the gear cluster spread you're running on the back.

This design looks just to be an improvement of some sort of clutch system, with purpose to try and move the derailleur arm out from being so low, where lovely things like rocks can hit it. That seems like a win to me, given my own assessment of how these things become worthless paperweights.

SRAM actually seems to be all-in on making rear derailleur replaceable in piecemeal, which seems to be a nice improvement over the design, in a very Right To Repair kinda way.

https://bikerumor.com/next-gen-sram-eagle-direct-mount-derai...

I'm not sure why such a design can't be run wireless if that's your preference. Looking at Shimano's offerings, even the 105 is electric these days.

But again: this is just a patent for an idea - it's not the first time Shimano has done this obviously

https://www.bike198.com/shimano-gearbox-patent/

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:04PM (#34859438)
I mean relevancy in the abstract sense by the way. It is trying to solve a problem that nobody really has, by adding an additional component to the system. It also makes your chain a tad bit longer... added weight and links.

> Can you expand on your idea of why you think Shimano doesn't look relevant now? ... On road, every World Tour team, save 3 are running Shimano.

They all use electronic shifting. This is not the way to compare relevancy, given that it is a sponsorship. Next year, sram comes out with a better financial deal for the team than shimano and they go with them.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by justinator on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:14PM (#34859540)
I would think this is focused on the MTB crowd, where the derailleur is a very fragile piece of the kit. As 1x's get ever more expansive, derailleur arms get longer, and there's just so much room to grow. Seems like Shimano is looking into ways to grow into that. If an ever-expanding range of gears or tighter steps between is relevant or not to something is I guess a personal call. I've ridden across the states on a single speed mountain bike, so I may be the wrong person to ask!
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by sasawpg on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:09PM (#34859492)
Came in here to say just that - I wouldn’t judge relevancy based on the amount of sponsorship a company is willing to throw at a world tour team.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by justinator on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:28PM (#34859693)
I'm not judging relevancy on just the amount of sponsorship but it is a sign pointing to "relevancy". No World Tour team would use Shimano if it's 1% disadvantage over brand X. Seeing Campy not being used at all is again: another sign of this company being relevant, when paired with their loss of market %.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by sasawpg on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:37PM (#34859782)
By that logic, you would see very little variety in types of components used by world your teams. Teams are in the business of making money, if SRAM offers them a better deal, team owners will find it hard to say no.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by justinator on Sunday February 19, 2023 @02:06PM (#34860702)
The logic I'm displaying is using a variety of different metrics in order to come up with a conclusion. I also never said that SRAM is irrelevant, only questioning why Shimano seem irrelevant to the the original poster I replied to - and I also mentioned how much product they push in the second sentence.

But the business of World Tour temas is also to win, as winning means being invited to the big races, which actually have coverage for the ads-on-wheels that riders are to get eyeballs on. If they can't win because of crap gear, they won't use said gear, no matter how much money given to them.

It's a fine balance, right? Some riders of high talent are also pretty controlling on the gear they use, and will bring their own bike sponsor into a team as part of the deal of transfer. Chicken and egg I guess: if the gear is irrelevant, you'll never see it on the Pro Tour.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:35PM (#34859760)
It is pretty simple though. Top end campy isn't wireless.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by thefz on Sunday February 19, 2023 @12:43PM (#34859857)
Battery-powered anything on a bike is a fad that will pass.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Sunday February 19, 2023 @01:02PM (#34860074)
DI2 came out in 2001. How many years do you think this 'fad' will last?
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by thefz on Sunday February 19, 2023 @01:23PM (#34860290)
How's market adoption?
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Sunday February 19, 2023 @01:32PM (#34860387)
A question with a question that's easy enough to google? Come on.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bicycle-gearbox-sys...

Still growing at a nice rate and every single pro team has been using it for years now.

All I see now around where I live, which is heavily bike centric, are e-bikes...

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by simooooo on Sunday February 19, 2023 @02:19PM (#34860837)
I’m not sure that is the correct metric to look at. As it is a very very high end product.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by thefz on Sunday February 19, 2023 @03:01PM (#34861239)
Precisely. If it was a truly innovative, no-brainer upgrade like dropper seatsposts, you would find almost one every recent-ish bike. I have seen one (1) live so far. And it was a ultra high end road bike.

For the same reason, what the pros do on their rigs is no concern for the 99.9% of mountain bikers.

I wouldn't bring anything I can't repair or troubleshoot directly out in the mountains, let alone anything that can discharge and not work anymore.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by sasawpg on Sunday February 19, 2023 @03:40PM (#34861643)
I have three bikes with electronic shifting in my basement. None are “ultra high end road bikes”.

Shimano also brought electronic to their 105 line and SRAM has it on Rival. Neither is high end, never mind ultra high end. I’m not a MTBer so I’m not aware of how that market is, but electronic shifting is definitely prevalent in road, gravel and cross.

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by sasawpg on Sunday February 19, 2023 @03:42PM (#34861663)
If you’re talking DuraAce/Red then yes. Otherwise it does not truly qualify as “very very high end” or even “high end“ for Rival/105.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by lrhegeba on Sunday February 19, 2023 @01:11PM (#34860177)
in the short run this system might make sense for some use cases, the future it is not. chainless systems will take over for e-bikes, e.g. https://www.schaeffler-industrial-drives.com/en/news_media/p... First used here: https://www.golem.de/news/free-drive-schaeffler-baut-kettenl... (german only, sorry). 250W is low, so there needs to happen some development for more use case.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by xmonkee on Sunday February 19, 2023 @02:42PM (#34861065)
You cannot complain about points of failure and praise electronic shifting in the same breath. I have a bike with downtube friction shifters and 2x8 gearing on an old deore group. Its liberating.
Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by rasz on Sunday February 19, 2023 @07:48PM (#34863605)
>figure out ways to make this same electronic shifting technology less expensive so that it can be installed on every non-e-bike out there.

But why bother when ebikes are already cheaper? BAFANG motor with battery conversion kit is 2/3 of the cheapest SRAM kit available($1.2).

Re:Shimano’s three-pulley rear derailleur could revolutionis... by latchkey on Sunday February 19, 2023 @08:20PM (#34863838)
There are plenty of people who don't want e-bikes, but want electronic shifting. People who race bikes are a great example. The whole bi/triathlon industry.

Given that electronic shifting is still $1.2k, it would be nice to lower that cost a bit so that all price points can participate more easily.