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Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by zem on Friday February 10, 2023 @01:58PM (#34744048)
cory doctorow has codified this precisely in his theory of "enshittification":

8<------------------------------

Here is how platforms die: first, they are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die.

I call this enshittification, and it is a seemingly inevitable consequence arising from the combination of the ease of changing how a platform allocates value, combined with the nature of a "two sided market," where a platform sits between buyers and sellers, hold each hostage to the other, raking off an ever-larger share of the value that passes between them.

https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by xnx on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:36PM (#34744606)
Terrific and succinct observation. How does competition not prevent this? Does lock-in prevent competition? e.g. Medium's suck-factor will always hover at the level where it's just not quite worth it to use something else if you already have many posts on Medium. New users will still pick Medium because it sucks, but is still popular/accepted.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by PaulHoule on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:00PM (#34744940)
The remarkable thing about Medium was that it went downhill so quickly, or, compared to other platforms like Twitter, it started trying to make money early in the process of gathering an audience, which limited it's growth.

In my mind it never had a good reputation. Successful blogging has three elements: (1) writing a lot, (2) technically running your blog, and (3) promoting your blog. In principle Medium took (2) and (3) out of your hands so you could focus on (1) but I think Medium attracted a person who was too lazy to blog before and who is interested in working on (1) as little as they are on (2) and (3).

In principle you might make some money blogging on Medium but a lot of people blog to promote themselves or their business and the registration wall reduced their reach and actually damaged their personal brand because I think a lot of people felt it was annoying to have to register to read articles on a blogging platform that is just a bit worse than the rest of the web as opposed to just a bit better. (Certainly anyone whose Medium blog posts connected with someone has received an email telling them it's a shame that a good blogger is blogging on Medium)

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by Eduard on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:13PM (#34746692)
> Successful blogging has three elements: (1) writing a lot...

How much truth is in this often-repeated statement?

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by sircastor on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:32PM (#34746896)
In the case of blogging, writing is (typically) one's product. Writing is relatively cheap and depending on the subject is highly commoditized, so you need to write a lot to incentivize audiences to return and to continue to consume, and presumably pay you somehow.

This isn't always the case. You might be an otherwise famous individual who will have an audience regardless of your publishing frequency. But I think for most bloggers, you have to have enough material that people will visit, and continue to make more so people will come back.

I published between 1 and 3 times a year on my blog/website. But then I'm not doing it for income.

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by pixodaros on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:56PM (#34747161)
Its an empirical rule of thumb that to build an audience online, post at least once a week (more often for low-effort posts for smartphones). If you can think of any well-known online writers who do not post a lot, I think you will find they generally had an existing audience (eg. Paul Graham is a venture capitalist with a crowd of admirers). Rules of thumb are not laws of nature, but this one matches my experience and my observations.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by gavinhoward on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:34PM (#34747541)
Blogger here.

Quite a bit. I would say my blog has been successful, but it only happened after I had written a lot, which was about 100 posts and about 150 posts in a blog that now doesn't exist.

To be successful, your need to get an audience. To get an audience, you have to either build one over time or go viral at least once. I've done both.

To build an audience over time, you need to give them a lot to read so that they won't forget you and will keep coming back.

Going viral is a luck thing, but you sure do get better chances of going viral the more you post.

My first viral post was posted on Hacker News at a time when I thought it wouldn't go viral for sure: on Saturday night (my time). I didn't want that one to go viral, but I thought I would post it anyway to attract some readers.

Oh boy.

I woke up the next morning to a headache.

Since then, when I want to make an impact, I post during my nighttime. Turns out, posting that on a Saturday night was perfect because my most viral posts have been, with one or two exceptions.

But I wouldn't have been able to sample that enough to know if I didn't have 50-100 (tech-oriented) blog posts to try with.

So yeah, it's true.

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by bombcar on Friday February 10, 2023 @08:15PM (#34748445)
I find there are two types of writers - ones who are working on a massive tome or tomes of perfection (often in their are of expertise) and those who are writing about a ton of different things.

The second definitely improves with consistent output. I assume the first does too, but they often are continually revising their “masterpiece” so it can be harder to see

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by drc500free on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:21PM (#34746792)
Competition doesn't generally apply because these are usually venture-backed companies in the first few stages. The point is to prevent competition in the third stage by using the first two stages to lock in both sides of the market.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by lmm on Friday February 10, 2023 @09:09PM (#34748853)
There's a wonderful blog post I want to find from years back about Starbucks switching from manual to automatic espresso machines, saying how the next generation of good coffee shops are probably getting their start by buying those manual machines cheap. And more generally, the cycle is that for a new brand having a few people who love you is more important than having people who don't hate you, so you take risks, and then at some point you're mainstream and that flips and it's more important to not be hated.

I'd add to that that brand reputation is monetisable and monetised. It's almost a playbook at this point: sell something high quality to people who are really into that thing, get a good reputation, then dilute the quality down and you can coast on that reputation for a while while selling cheaper versions at the original high prices to a much wider audience.

I don't know what the counter to this is, other than customers paying much more attention to when a brand changes their products, which would not be free for them.

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by chubot on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:24PM (#34744444)
Yes, definitely agree, and "enshittification" is a good word for something I've observed for ~25 years.

Very similar to this phenomenon, in relation to imgur and so forth:

https://drewdevault.com/2014/10/10/The-profitability-of-onli...

I think that all image hosts suffer from the same sad pattern of eventual failure. That pattern is:

I wouldn't place the blame squarely on the company however. It's also true that consumers have predictable behavior patterns -- they want free stuff, and they will stick around to get that, and then move to the next thing.

On the other hand, we want free stuff because we don't want to sign up for subscriptions, and companies are always making that annoying -- betting on us forgetting to cancel, making it hard to cancel, tacking on hidden fees (banks do a lot of this), etc.

I wish that money could just be exchanged for goods and services, as Homer Simpson once noted ...

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by zem on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:32PM (#34744553)
there's also this old ribbonfarm post on "the locust economy", describing that sort of consumer behaviour: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/04/03/the-locust-economy/
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by chubot on Friday February 10, 2023 @07:47PM (#34748231)
Great analogy! I hadn't seen that. I can definitely see that in Groupon (which seems much less popular now?)

Although I would also consider the other side of the "sharing economy" -- IMO sharing like Zipcar makes a lot of economic sense, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for incumbents there (although I guess Zipcar got bought).

Likewise with the taxi and hotel industries -- the incumbents deserve some competition / disruption.

But yeah consumers are certainly fickle

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by dannyr on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:11PM (#34744247)
Love that post. Sadly, every major tech platform is going thru "enshittification".
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by bee_rider on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:13PM (#34746698)
The enshittification cycle has always been here, but progress continues. It just feels like things are getting worse as the programs we grew up on enter the shit-zone part of their lifecycle.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by xdfgh1112 on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:30PM (#34747492)
Wikipedia seems like a weird exception to this rule.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by zem on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:52PM (#34747745)
wikipedia isn't a "platform" in that sense of the term, they don't make money by being a middleman between producers, consumers and advertisers.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by bee_rider on Saturday February 11, 2023 @03:13PM (#34755854)
They are super successful at gathering donations, right? I think their goal is fundamentally well-scoped to the sort budget they can hope to get just from donations.

I mean most of the value there is in text written by volunteers, which must not be so expensive to host (compared to, say, an image hosting site for example).

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by flanbiscuit on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:07PM (#34744191)
Are there examples of sites/platforms that are doing it "right"? (however you interpret 'right' to be, I guess). Ones that have been around for a while and haven't enshittified?
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by robotnikman on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:35PM (#34744600)
Not sure if it counts, but Steam maybe?
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by zem on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:24PM (#34744429)
hm, maybe the crowdfunding platforms like kickstarter and indiegogo? as far as I know those haven't started down the curve yet. but I would guess it's inevitable once you take vc money and are beholden to your investors to squeeze out every drop of revenue you can :(

it would require a really strong mission statement baked into the company to say "we are here to provide value to our users and everything else has to come second to that". if nothing else you eventually get acquired, e.g. tumblr, and everything goes to hell then.

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by newaccount74 on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:59PM (#34744913)
Kickstarter and Indiegogo have quite a few charlatans selling a tech version of snake oil, and they don't care because they get 10% (or whatever their fees are).
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by 0cf8612b2e1e on Friday February 10, 2023 @03:43PM (#34745547)
I am not sure how much vetting you want the platform to do? If someone says they can synthesize gasoline from air for $.02/liter, should Kickstarter shut it down? Send a guy to investigate? Where does the arbitrary this-is-probably-wrong line land?
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by delecti on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:25PM (#34747443)
Well that example wouldn't be allowed on Kickstarter, because they require a prototype to exist for electronics campaigns. I think that's a fairly reasonable arbitrarily chosen line.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by HWR_14 on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:54PM (#34747132)
I don't think Kickstarter "doesn't care", they just don't care enough to proactively find out. Indiegogo will keep outright scams up. Kickstarter says "eh, someone will flag it if it is a scam"
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by ALittleLight on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:39PM (#34744645)
Hacker News
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by bartvk on Friday February 10, 2023 @04:57PM (#34746499)
Slashdot?
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by TedDoesntTalk on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:26PM (#34747452)
lol
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by doctor_eval on Friday February 10, 2023 @07:53PM (#34748279)
Freshmeat?
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by bartvk on Saturday February 11, 2023 @05:24AM (#34751056)
I wasn't joking, actually. I still visit Slashdot, though not as often. Ownership has changed over the years, but in principle, the site its features haven't changed.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by geerlingguy on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:01PM (#34746538)
Craigslist
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by heleninboodler on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:02PM (#34746550)
Bandcamp, although many are holding their breath since the Epic takeover.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by walterbell on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:38PM (#34746973)
https://NeoCities.org, free static hosting, $5/mo for higher storage/traffic limits.

https://Groups.io (rebooted Yahoo Groups).

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by TedDoesntTalk on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:27PM (#34747458)
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by slymerson on Friday February 10, 2023 @02:09PM (#34744215)
do all platforms go through this? if so, it's very sad.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by sircastor on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:41PM (#34747003)
It's a sort-of inevitable thing when your focus becomes earnings and growth rather than whatever your actual business is. Facebook's business was providing a common platform for people that know each other to share publicly. Twitter's business was a billboard to share what they're doing. Google's business was to provide a way to find things on the web.

Unfortunately, none of those things is particularly easy to charge money for. So you take Venture Capital to fund your development, and then you try to find a way to pay that VC through other means - Advertising mostly, it turns out. Then you have to keep pushing that because your investors want returns, and it funds the party.

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by pixodaros on Friday February 10, 2023 @07:11PM (#34747931)
None of those things was Facebook or Twitter's business, because none was how they make money. Facebook and Twitter are for-proffit businesses, and for almost all of their history the money has come from selling advertising and surveillance (its pretty clear that birdsite guy never understood that twitter users are his products and advertisers are his customers). There are not many alternatives if you want to provide a centralized global service for tens of millions of users. So my web presence focuses on things hosted by small companies or run by community members, not on giant 'free' corporate services.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by doctor_eval on Friday February 10, 2023 @07:59PM (#34748318)
What you’re saying is true in terms of where the money comes from, but it doesn’t explain why customers are being screwed.

The thing is, all of these companies make money by arbitraging value consumed by the end users versus value produced by advertisers. It’s a two sided market, except that consumers pay in attention rather than currency.

It’s catchy - and probably true - to say that if you aren’t paying, “then you are the product”. But these companies still need a quality product or, eventually, the advertising and data collection is not valuable to those with money.

Which is what we seem to be seeing with Twitter.

Abusing end users is a very short sighted strategy, even if they’re not paying.

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by pixodaros on Friday February 10, 2023 @08:52PM (#34748740)
Which customers are getting screwed? Posters or viewers on 'free' hosting sites are the products not the customers. Online ad buyers everywhere get cheated, but that is another story.

Many of these giant sites are really in the business of talking money out of investors, so their main business is not really selling a service at all (its "investor storytime").

I don't think that arbitrage model is useful because one side is paying cash and the other is not. Its like calling dating a marketplace, a bad metaphor.

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by doctor_eval on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:25PM (#34749275)
Well, I disagree with your previous assertion that Facebook makes money from selling ads.

Facebook makes money by creating a product that attracts a bunch of people to use it, and then they sell ads.

The whole thing falls apart if they don’t do #1 properly.

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by fragmede on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:30PM (#34749304)
we'll have to agree to disagree then. There are many other properties outside of Facebook.com where their ads run, in competition with Google.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by doctor_eval on Saturday February 11, 2023 @01:10AM (#34750010)
We are specifically talking about the user visible pages of these companies and their “enshitification”

> Facebook's business was providing a common platform for people that know each other to share publicly. Twitter's business was a billboard to share what they're doing. Google's business was to provide a way to find things on the web.

They may have other businesses in banner ads but I’m specifically responding to the question,

> do all platforms go through this? if so, it's very sad.

by trying to make the point that if their business is selling attention, then pissing off end users - thereby reducing the supply of attention - is bad management.

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by bee_rider on Friday February 10, 2023 @05:22PM (#34746802)
This definitely seems like at least half of it.

With blogging platforms, an additional aspect: I don’t really care to read the opinions of people who are mostly interested in blogging about a topic. I want to read from actual practitioners. As soon as a platform becomes well known, the non-practicing bloggers show up and it turns into a crapshoot whether what I’m reading is first or third hand information.

And that’s during the early still-OK-ish phase. After a while the natural tendency is that the non-practicing folks will produce more content because they’ve got more spare time!

Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by MattDemers on Saturday February 11, 2023 @02:54AM (#34750475)
I'll agree; we're just getting to the "Substacks writing about writing Substacks" phase now. Up until now all those people were on Medium.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by anigbrowl on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:11PM (#34747293)
This is just a cool-sounding wrapper on the much older concept of rent-seeking, which has a solid theoretical literature behind it. Doctorow seems to specialize in this.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by zem on Friday February 10, 2023 @06:21PM (#34747402)
it's more like a specialisation of "rent-seeking" when applied to this particular case and pattern. nothing wrong with inventing a more specific term when the pattern behind it gets common enough.
Re:Ask HN: Why Did Medium.com “Fail"? by quickthrower2 on Saturday February 11, 2023 @12:00AM (#34749747)
It is like rocket stages or a maggot turning into a fly: each stage bootstraps the next but cannot last forever