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Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by O__________O on Thursday February 09, 2023 @02:33PM (#34729927)
Curious, assuming such an signal is found, are there safety measures in place to isolate it from other systems in off chance it contains “alien malware” that attacks systems receiving it?
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by whyifwhynot on Thursday February 09, 2023 @02:50PM (#34730247)
no.
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by readyplayeremma on Thursday February 09, 2023 @02:57PM (#34730375)
It seems unlikely any alien malware could be targeted to affect our computing platforms. However, if they had preexisting knowledge of computing as implemented on Earth, it would be less complex. If there was a type of malware universal enough to do so, it would probably be some kind of attack against the universal notion of intelligence itself. In which case, you may need to isolate it from humans as well.

I think the most likely scenario for receiving any kind of alien Trojan horse signal, would be if the signal was some kind of instructions for how to create and execute an alien AI as encoded in the signal. However, that would require complex analysis and human intervention to build. Unless we reach a point where AGI systems can search, interpret, and implement instructions from said signals, any threats would require significant involvement from humans in order to materialize.

At least, those are my initial thoughts.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by edgyquant on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:12PM (#34730642)
>it seems unlikely

What are you basing this on?

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by readyplayeremma on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:21PM (#34730791)
Our existing computing platforms are very specific and very limited. Without knowledge of that specific design and the accompanying limitations, how could you pre-craft a non-interactive "exploit" that could be executed by such a system? I do think that it becomes more possible if we have AGI-like systems doing detection and analysis, but we do not. In addition, any universal exploit against AGI systems would probably have to be universal enough to also affect human intelligence.
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by godelski on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:13PM (#34731559)
For a clearer example, there's a reason a virus that affects Windows doesn't affect Linux. Or a virus that affects Windows XP doesn't affect Windows 11. There are of course counter examples, but this is the trend. To understand why the counter examples exist requires expert knowledge (or rather that there are basically the same things running in the same way).
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by edgyquant on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:36PM (#34731882)
We are currently discussing exploits designs by foreign intelligences to infect artificially intelligent systems. We are not talking about privilege escalation on a Mac.
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by stevenhuang on Thursday February 09, 2023 @07:08PM (#34733643)
That's where you're confused. The only one insisting the topic under discussion is the infection of AI systems (as opposed to classical computing systems) is you...
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by edgyquant on Saturday February 11, 2023 @05:37PM (#34757129)
Except the proposed question was what if the signals were designed to only be detected by societies who’ve invented AI…
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by stevenhuang on Sunday February 12, 2023 @03:37AM (#34761099)
The specific thread you are on is about current systems.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34729927

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by edgyquant on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:36PM (#34731868)
These exploits act on the AI, not the hardware. I’m well aware of how human crafted exploits currently work.
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by wpietri on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:37PM (#34731030)
Good point!

There's a bit in one of Larry Niven's books, possibly Ringworld. The protagonists are worried about what novel aliens might do. Somebody proposes ducking into hyperspace, where tracking them is "theoretically impossible". Another character responds, "What if they use different theories?"

That something seems unlikely to a human used to dealing with other humans at the same or lower technology level to me says more about humans than about what's possible.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by groffee on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:49PM (#34731220)
Reminds me of an episode of Stargate where they fire 'stealth' (invisible to radar) nukes at the Goa'uld ships, and they're just stood looking out the window at them! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvBsXxNc7k8

Anyone who says anything like "it's impossible" etc just has a complete lack of imagination.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by throwbadubadu on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:25PM (#34730843)
We've built enough stupid complexity* that either the aliens must already have spied it out completely (but if they done that they could likely overtake is in any way quickly..), or it just won't happen. (*) I mean seriously, how would you design a virus in some limited signal that has a chance of overtaking any arbitrary specific system someone may have invented, that's impossible. Never say never maybe my imagination is too small..
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by edgyquant on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:38PM (#34731901)
It would likely be pretty “easy” to design a signal that tricks convolutional networks etc. no need to care about the underlying hardware
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by neodymiumphish on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:00PM (#34730437)
A short of 'Contact' scenario. Interesting
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by godelski on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:07PM (#34731477)
Fun fact, this is basically (highly likely to be) true for biological systems as well for very similar reasons. Looking at you Orwell...

edit: note that diseases have to make significant changes to jump species. The barrier for different biologies is even higher.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by insane_dreamer on Thursday February 09, 2023 @06:08PM (#34733061)
> It seems unlikely any alien malware could be targeted to affect our computing platforms

tell that to the Cylons

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by midoridensha on Thursday February 09, 2023 @08:44PM (#34734558)
The Cyclons were built by humans, had fought a war with them only 40 years before, and most importantly, had human-looking spies living with the humans and seducing the main creator of the computing platform's software to learn its vulnerabilities. They weren't some far-away aliens that had no prior knowledge of the colonies' computing systems.
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by insane_dreamer on Friday February 10, 2023 @11:12AM (#34741619)
fair point
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by bullfightonmars on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:04PM (#34730509)
Ha! Have you read Peter Watts's Blindsight and Echopraxia?
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by lacker on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:06PM (#34730540)
No. For now the algorithms that search for extraterrestrial signals aren't trying to decode signals at all. They are only trying to detect extraterrestrial signals. The typical resolution for the Green Bank data is something like, every 20 seconds at a particular frequency gets summarized as one floating point number. That's enough to detect a sufficiently powerful signal over a few minutes of recording, but it isn't enough to decode any message.

If we ever do detect a signal, it will probably require constructing a radio telescope that is even more powerful in order to decode that signal. At that point it would make sense to think about safety measures.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by neilv on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:13PM (#34730665)
An alien signal for which the act of perceiving it causes some paradox that results in the perceiver to have never existed, cascading to every other interaction they've ever had (not had).

It's a clean and efficient way to nip upstart intelligences in the bud, before they advance far enough to start pulling at loose threads of the fabric of reality (which would threaten the remaining older intelligences, who survived and learned from previous such incidents).

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by 3pac on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:30PM (#34730934)
"We will provide you with vast riches when we arrive, if you build the receiving end of this matter transporter according to these instructions/accept us as gods/wear Nikes/tell nobody else."

Plot twist: it's not a matter transporter.

Seems difficult to defend against.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by m3kw9 on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:21PM (#34730794)
They can do malware given they know how our computers worked and means visited us and could do a lot more than make our machines mine bitcoins
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by jerf on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:29PM (#34730920)
It's a bit of a science fiction myth that it is impossible to process a bit of data without executing it, or that data can somehow force itself to be executed by its sheer swaggering potency as data. And a thing that is more true than it should be, because people keep insisting that they are super awesome and totes capable of writing C that can be put on the network. If we'd stop doing this there'd be hardly any truth to it.

It's not actually that hard to process data without executing it.

Regardless, it is certainly science fiction that they could guess an exploit from light years away. That's not what exploits do, it's not how they work. I've never seen anything like a "universal" exploit that you could just fire at anything, even a non-human system, and have some sort of reasonable expectation that it would work. Such a thing is not even something you could sketch out. Even if you think you have something, like, say, https://github.com/payloadbox/xss-payload-list , you're looking at a human list. All I'd have to do to completely scramble that entire list is to have a parallel evolution of ASCII where the letters and symbols are in completely different places than they are now. Nothing in that list would work if all the control characters in ParallelASCII were in 223-255, and the alphabet was 0-52, and all the symbols were from 128 on. And that's still a very human standard that is, for instance, based on bytes instead of, say, collections of 9 trits as the base level of the system. There's an effective infinity of other ways of encoding things and deciding what characters have what characters doing what things... assuming "characters" is even the way to look at the representation in the first place.

As others mention, you could hypothetically send a program that does something that can't be analyzed, through sheer size if nothing else, but it would still be an uphill battle to just guess how to exploit something. You'd be looking more at an AI that is good enough to talk itself out of the box, rather than something that is actually "hacking" anything reliably.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by retrac on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:42PM (#34731101)
Assuming the bandwidth exists, somehow describing enough mathematics to describe a virtual machine, and then sending a program for that virtual machine, might just be the best way to communicate. A package that can help the recipient interpret it by learning and responding to the local environment. I can't put my finger on any specific book but I have the impression of this scenario coming up in science fiction. I've long figured that humans inventing superintelligent AI (whatever that would mean) and humans receiving an alien signal are essentially the same problem - we have no idea what it might tell us.
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by jjk166 on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:42PM (#34731953)
I wonder if in the same way you can do statistical analysis of human languages to determine things like which characters are vowels, perhaps if you received enough programs written in some alien brainfuck-like language you could use statistical analysis to guess which symbol is which.

If nothing else you could always brute force it; with 8 logical operators there would only be about 40,000 possible combinations. Maybe figure an order of magnitude larger number to account for idiosyncrasies in their implementation of the language. Running "hello world" a half million times shouldn't be too hard. Of course figuring out which ones are spitting out gibberish and which ones are spitting out perfectly intelligible results for one fluent in alienese would be hard. I presume they'd send a bunch of example programs that compute pi or something similarly universal, but there are a lot of potential gibberish we could fit a pattern to. It might even make sense to just keep running every code sequence in every possible combination until we get something cool.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by jerf on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:50PM (#34731232)
Said AI could certainly be programmed to probe for weaknesses in its runtime environment.

However... the game theory on that becomes very interesting, because the sender can't assume that the AI's probes will be immediately successful and they will instantly run out and take total control over the host network so thoroughly that the hack can't be detected. And sending out an AI that tries to break out and then tries to do something nasty is an act of war against an adversary you know nothing about. For all you know, the psychology of that species is such that they will now dedicate every erg of energy to the sole task of wiping your species out until the threat is gone. For all you know, your AI was first executed in an environment that deliberately left some big holes in it and those holes were completely set up with tripwires. Such is the nature of the virtual world. And if the AI does trigger the tripwire, we can also analyze it to find out what it "would" do if it broke out. So it's definitely not a "ha ha ha we nuked our competitors with no risk to ourselves just by sending out a single trasmission" situation.

I'm not saying there isn't a whole interesting conversation to be had. I am saying the idea that the aliens can somehow send out data that is somehow encoded in SuperIntegers that instantly SuperHack every computer that you try to SuperUse them on... that's a bad computer-animated cartoon for kids, not a realistic threat. There is a real threat, but it's more complicated and generally smaller, perhaps with a super weird spike at the top end, but even then, per my previous paragraph, more complicated than I think people are thinking here, because the aliens do not have access to these SuperIntegers any more than we do.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by goatlover on Thursday February 09, 2023 @05:05PM (#34732274)
True, game theory makes it less likely a good strategic first move, but you can always come up with scenarios where a super predatory race has set up the signal a long time ago to target nascent space-faring civilizations to preempt them. If the newer civ gets past that, then the aggressive aliens up the threat level and take more drastic action.
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by skulk on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:21PM (#34731675)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincos_language

I have extreme doubts that we would be able to decode something sent by an alien that looks like this.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by ly3xqhl8g9 on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:46PM (#34731166)
What if PHP SQL injection is actually the 10th component of The Great Filter [1], and every civilization is condemned, sooner or later, to suffer from such a vulnerability.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter#The_Great_Filter

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by akkartik on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:42PM (#34731951)
Focusing on the non-scifi angle here, there's one other reason besides C that we end up constantly running data when we think we're parsing it: the depth of our computational stack.

https://www.sitepoint.com/anatomy-of-an-exploit-an-in-depth-...

https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/issues/371098

So I'd say we need 3 things:

* Stop using unsafe languages

* Use languages that separate parsing from execution. Just follow Lisp, have equivalents for `read` and `eval`. Lua is a notable offender here: https://www.lua.org/manual/5.4/manual.html#pdf-load There is no way to parse a table while guaranteeing no code execution.

* Use languages that forbid monkey-patching, because that's one vector for turning `read` into `eval` because someone had a bright idea.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by rmckayfleming on Thursday February 09, 2023 @05:07PM (#34732288)
With the caveat that you don't literally follow Lisp by having a #. reader macro.
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by shsbdncudx on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:50PM (#34732048)
Dude, have you even SEEN Independence Day?
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by jerf on Friday February 10, 2023 @10:13AM (#34740650)
Ironically, the common opinion that that was just sooooo impossible is itself incorrect. There is no problem whatsoever with writing a virus to run on the computer system that was under study for decades and simply delivering it with a Mac. The point is precisely that in this case, this wasn't a blind exploit, and delivering with a Mac is no more particularly challenging than delivering a Windows exploit payload from a Linux scanning machine.

This accusation demonstrates the accuser's own lack of understanding about computers; Hollywood actually got this one right. Personally, I rather suspect this was coincidence rather than anybody on the production sitting down and working out this logic. But nevertheless, the movie is right on this point.

There are similar scenes in other media that are ludicrous. I am pretty sure I recall a scene in Voyager in a later season where the crew encounters a computer they've never seen before, from a species they'd never encountered before, on a piece of hardware they have only a vague idea what it does. They beam aboard, stand in front of a console, discover they're locked out, and "hack" past that in about literally 5 seconds. This is stupid. They shouldn't even be able to read the text on the console, and they've "hacked" it in five seconds. One wonders what the hack exactly was. Hollywood makes this mistake enough that I'm pretty sure that Independence Day getting it right was just a coincidence. Probably if the story didn't include a downed fighter being studied for decades they would still have rolled with the virus idea. Then it would have been silly. But as written, it is not silly.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by goatlover on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:56PM (#34732129)
But what if like Contact, the signal included plans for building a machine? Except it would be a computer to run the embedded code, which turned out to be an alien AGI having the goal of learning our systems so that it could infiltrate them? Would at least make for a decent scifi story, if it hasn't already been written or produced.

I recall how Jody Foster's character in the movie was dismissive of any such concerns, but then we really don't know what the motive of an alien civilization broadcasting a signal would be, and the Dark Forest theory hadn't been espoused yet.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by midoridensha on Thursday February 09, 2023 @08:42PM (#34734544)
Contact was very realistic in showing that it's foolish to spend trillions building a machine in the USA to contact aliens, because some religious crazy will destroy it, and such a machine should be built elsewhere.
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by idlewords on Thursday February 09, 2023 @03:37PM (#34731023)
We should be fine unless we open an alien attachment
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by anigbrowl on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:31PM (#34731807)
My sensors have detected an Excession enjoyer
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by 1970-01-01 on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:47PM (#34732011)
Not sure how this could even theoretically work. Without having a partial understanding of the intended recipient, a radio signal can't cause harm. Something like 'this signal is false' and 'divide by 0' need to be decoded and processed before they are malicious. Meat space is excellent at detecting and breaking these logic problems and infinite loops. We're safe from evil alien signals. Perhaps a decompression bomb within the signal could cause lots of decoding grief. Now that I think about it, I can imagine us being stupid enough to dedicate all our resources into decompressing or cracking an alien signal to up to the point of extinction. And maybe that's when they step in and call it. We were just part of a great galactic prank.
Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by dylan604 on Thursday February 09, 2023 @04:52PM (#34732071)
>a radio signal can't cause harm.

a ^weak radio signal can't cause harm.

Re:AI Joins Hunt for ET: Study Finds 8 Potential Alien Signals by 1970-01-01 on Thursday February 09, 2023 @05:39PM (#34732705)
Yes safety first! Always be sure to measure the power of your radio signal, and if it's greater than the output of your galactic core, safely move your solar system(s) far enough away to avoid damaging your paint job.