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Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by Someone1234 on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:14AM (#34655056)
This removes WinSxS. That's fine for embedded, since you'd just package the DLLs you need with any executables you want to run, but trying to run this as a general purpose OS is a fools' errand. Calling WinSxS "bloat" when that "bloat" is allowing 30+ years of backwards compatibility (and a lot of stuff will break) is creative by the article's author for sure.

Nothing wrong with Tiny11 though, if you know what it is good at and use it for that. Namely, "offline" Windows for some appliance-like usage (e.g. factory controls, display screens, et al) when Linux won't do for whatever reason and licensing Windows IoT isn't possible (small business/personal project/etc).

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by Semaphor on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:34AM (#34655199)
In their defense, they also don’t recommend running it on anything that can actually run normal Win 11.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by causality0 on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:38AM (#34655230)
Calling WinSxS "bloat" when that "bloat" is allowing 30+ years of backwards compatibility (and a lot of stuff will break) is creative by the article's author for sure.

Taking up a lot of space on your drives for data to maintain backwards compatibility makes sense. Why, when not being actively used, does it need to occupy gigabytes of RAM?

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by Someone1234 on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:41AM (#34655254)
> Why, when not being actively used, does it need to occupy gigabytes of RAM?

There's no need, which is why it doesn't.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by ninkendo on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:43AM (#34655750)
Given that the premise of this discussion is how Tiny11 credits removing WinSXS as part of the reason they were able to free up the memory, it would appear the article (and OP) disagree.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by Dooflegna on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:00PM (#34655924)
The article talks about memory savings and storage savings. Removing WinSXS is a storage savings play, not a memory savings play.

Here's the relevant quote:

> Moreover, removing the Windows Component Store (WinSxS), which is responsible for a fair degree of Tiny11’s compactness, means that installing new features or languages isn’t possible.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:51AM (#34655327)
Caching frequently used apps for snappiness.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by 8note on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:50AM (#34655318)
how much backwards compatability do i neee nowadays?

my laptop only needs to run a few things:

browser vscode steam the microsoft drawing app some office stuff sublime discord

which all update pretty regularly.

the age of the desktop app has been replaced by the age of the browser and electron based apps. i can imagine businesses who built their own set ups back in the age of the desktop app being stuck with it, but for the most part i dont think i used windows' backwards compatability anymore

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by MuffinFlavored on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:35AM (#34655665)
Isn't it interesting that both you and I frequently use Sublime and VS Code? Why can't VS Code kill off Sublime? It's interesting to me where a text editor like Sublime can't be a preferable IDE, but an IDE also isn't a preferable text editor?
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by speg on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:22PM (#34656140)
Sublime is, well, Sublime.

Every time I try VS Code I just can’t commit. There’s a bit too much going on and it never feels as tight as Sublime.

I did just get a new Windows machine, so maybe I should try it on that.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by MuffinFlavored on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:34PM (#34656267)
When you are using Sublime, do you have the ability to right click somewhere and "go to definition" in a big code base?
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by nickpeterson on Saturday February 04, 2023 @08:44PM (#34660731)
I have the same feelings. Sublime has really good, “let me visually manipulate text through cursors” functionality. The find all, regex highlighting, and multi cursors are really nice. These features are in nearly every editor but they always feel crappy to use compared to sublime.

I’m starting to get back into emacs recently though because I like fiddling with tools more than productivity.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by tkuraku on Sunday February 05, 2023 @12:01AM (#34662076)
I've migrated to vscode from sublime. Vscode integrated debugger, lsp, etc are way ahead of sublime. That said, typing in sublime just feels good compared to vscode. I keep sublime around for quick edits.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by zamadatix on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:24AM (#34655584)
They may update regularly but that doesn't mean they only use modern features. E.g. even just Steam itself (not just games in it) is largely still 32 bit on Windows requiring gigabytes of 32 bit compatibility files using interfaces going back decades even though Windows 11 itself doesn't have a 32 bit version anymore.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by terrycody on Saturday February 04, 2023 @09:19PM (#34660986)
Sorry but does it mean some games can't play on windows 11 steam?
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by TingPing on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:03PM (#34661319)
Windows has no 32bit release but 64bit Windows has everything to run 32bit software.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by connicpu on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:54PM (#34661665)
You can; you wouldn't be able to if you stripped your windows install of all the files that still allow 32-bit programs to run
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by terrycody on Saturday February 04, 2023 @09:20PM (#34660990)
Oh I got your point, that's why this thing exist!
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by Dalewyn on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:23AM (#34655576)
A lot more than you think:

* Steam (the root process, not the subsequent Chromium child processes) is 32-bit, as are a lot of games.

* Discord is 32-bit.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by pas on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:38AM (#34655690)
How come people run these Electron apps separately when they run pretty well as tabs/windows in the browser?
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by Ar-Curunir on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:49PM (#34656400)
Because integration into the desktop is better as an Electron app. Eg sound and video calls, keyboard shortcuts, not having to worry about finding your Discord/Slack/whatever tab
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by Dalewyn on Saturday February 04, 2023 @07:29PM (#34660126)
I would't say Electron is better desktop integration.

Discord for example is literally just a chrome-less Chrome; the zoom in/out hotkeys in Chrome still work in it.

This is also not mentioning how no Electron program ever visually adheres to the desktop environment it's running in.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by oefrha on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:34PM (#34661903)
Electron apps can use desktop capabilities. Web apps are at the mercy of the few desktop-bridging APIs that browsers inconsistently expose. They’re not talking about UI/UX “integration”.

Discord for instance has this “currently playing game X” feature. I have zero interest in broadcasting what I’m doing at the moment to the world, but many do and have this feature enabled. Good luck implementing that in a browser-confined web app.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by leonidasv on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:50PM (#34662004)
Electron can call native OS APIs the browser can't.

An example: https://stackoverflow.com/a/39569062

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by smileybarry on Sunday February 05, 2023 @08:50AM (#34664871)
> Discord for example is literally just a chrome-less Chrome; the zoom in/out hotkeys in Chrome still work in it.

No, it also includes:

* Voice (and text chat) overlay for games (DLL)

* Game integration via lobby & rich presence APIs

* Krisp noise cancellation (requires a DLL as well)

* (Better) screenshare (Chrome has an API for window sharing now but Discord's is a bit more robust with several backends in case one fails)

* System-wide keybinds

* Scripting support via gaming accessory apps (Logitech G HUB, HyperX, etc.)

It also (anecdotally) works faster than the web client, in my experience.

Just because the zoom controls work (which is an accessibility feature) doesn't mean it's a barebones Chrome wrapper.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by dariusj18 on Saturday February 04, 2023 @03:51PM (#34658131)
Because a long time ago Microsoft lost a lawsuit when they tried making the web and Windows more integrated
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by rewgs on Saturday February 04, 2023 @07:38PM (#34660206)
I guess I'm one of the few who doesn't. Discord, Slack, Spotify, etc -- they're all just bookmarks for me.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by encryptluks2 on Saturday February 04, 2023 @08:41PM (#34660708)
Because browser's haven't built enough compatibility with the desktop to use it like a regular app, therefore severely limiting---sometimes intentionally---what you can and can't access on the file system.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by poopooracoocoo on Monday February 06, 2023 @07:11AM (#34676239)
I think it's because the apps have additional functionality and because the services push users to use the apps on their websites. Some of the additional functionality is artificially limited to apps as companies can put more tracking, advertising, and can ensure that people won't leave their service easily by just closing a tab.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by Rebelgecko on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:30AM (#34655622)
What's the use case for needing to run steam but not individual games? Are you using desktop sharing with an ec2 instance or something?
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by pas on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:36AM (#34655675)
i'd be happy to hunt DLLs for games instead of installing every damned VCredist and directx package globally.

basically a Proton/NixOS for Windows :)

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by Marsymars on Saturday February 04, 2023 @07:29PM (#34660130)
Not a Windows system, but I run Steam on my Mac purely for in-home streaming from my gaming system. No games installed.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by bombolo on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:55AM (#34655884)
> steam

Do you want steam to actually run any game? :D

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by JoeAltmaier on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:58AM (#34655374)
Um. Where else do you need it to run in 2GB but embedded? I think the article is informative, fair and correct.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by djur on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:18AM (#34655534)
"De-bloated" implies that the stuff removed is "bloat", i.e. worthless. I wouldn't assume that a "de-bloated" install was any less suitable for general purpose computing tasks.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by pixl97 on Saturday February 04, 2023 @07:49PM (#34660281)
I'd consider that a poor assumption. If you try to use this to install a wide range of applications you run into one of two issues, you rebloat the system, or some things fail to run.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by Thorrez on Sunday February 05, 2023 @01:56AM (#34662628)
I think the core question is what is the definition of bloat.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by demetrius on Saturday February 04, 2023 @03:18PM (#34657800)
> Where else do you need it to run in 2GB but embedded?

I use an eeePC laptop with 2 Gb or RAM as my home computer. It's quite usable with Linux.

Not that I'm planning to install Win11 on it, but the assumption that 2GB is enough only for embedded devices is incorrect.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by JoeAltmaier on Sunday February 05, 2023 @11:06AM (#34665964)
I stand corrected. Embedded is all over the map, but a brief search shows you have to get well above the $10 embedded SOC to get RAM like that.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by NikolaNovak on Sunday February 05, 2023 @08:46AM (#34664844)
I have a media pc running windows 10 with 2gb ram. It's run great with media player classic, Netflix, and even steam installed. I certainly would not assume "debloated" means "completely crippled"

I think that's the point - some people have assumption that 2g is meaningless whereas others see it as HUUUGE amounts of memory. Never mind historically, let us consider what a modern phone can do with 2gb ram.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by binarycrusader on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:23PM (#34661833)
The idea that removing WinSxS saves space is generally misguided anyway. The vast majority of content there is actually the original file that was used to create a hard link at the destination. So obviously removing the file doesn’t really save any appreciable amount of space.

The remaining content unique to WinSXS is either for cryptographic validation, app compat, or the driver stack.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by asveikau on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:45PM (#34661964)
Came here to say this.

WinSXS looks like a huge folder in explorer, because explorer's size estimates do not tell you about hard links. It's not that big. I need to question somebody who thinks removing it will remove a lot of bloat.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by kristianp on Sunday February 05, 2023 @12:03AM (#34662084)
Hmm, so how can you see the real size of winsxs?
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by binarycrusader on Sunday February 05, 2023 @12:23AM (#34662195)
Brute force?

Get the size of every “file” in the volume along with the file id of each and then subtract the size of any files with a matching file id that are in the WinSxS. Then sum the size of the remaining files that were from the WinSxS.

You can get the file id using https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winbase/... or fsutil, etc.

You could also probably execute “fsutil hardlink list” for every “file” in WinSxS and then ignore any that list more than one result and sum the size of the remainder.

There are of course more efficient ways to do this but those are some quick hacks.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by forgotpwd16 on Sunday February 05, 2023 @04:27AM (#34663322)

  dism.exe /Online /Cleanup-Image /AnalyzeComponentStore
Gives both apparent (seen in Explorer) and actual size.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by forgotpwd16 on Sunday February 05, 2023 @04:25AM (#34663305)
WinSxS also includes backups allowing to revert updates and disabled features. Cleaning up using dism has always recovered me a few GBs.
Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by binarycrusader on Sunday February 05, 2023 @12:42PM (#34666841)
The amount of backups in there is fairly minimal and is limited to a folder called “backups”. As for disabled features, the size of disabled features there is also relatively small, not gigabytes.

Any space reclaimed using dism’s startcomponentcleanup is only from removal of superseded updates which normally happens automatically whenever the maintenance task runs after a certain period of time.

Note that I explicitly consider backups separate from superseded updates. Superseded updates are kept for a period of time to allow the user to uninstall a newer update.

Re:De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM by twelvedogs on Sunday February 05, 2023 @03:51AM (#34663142)
it does more than that, it keeps a copy of every dll you've ever installed not just the ones in use. there's a reason it just gets bigger forever even if you don't install more programs