News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by jstx1 on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:17PM (#34633185)
> Our long-term investments in deep computer science make us extremely well-positioned as AI reaches an inflection point, and I’m excited by the AI-driven leaps we’re about to unveil in Search and beyond.

translation: "Investors, please chill about ChatGPT already"

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by mrtksn on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:40PM (#34633522)
Should they chill though? I'm sure Google has the talent to match ChatGPT but their fundamental business model relies on sending people to the highest bidder and this maybe works when everything else is spam and ad infested hellhole but ChatGPT style AIs value comes from the high quality user experience which is not driven by the highest bidder.

What if answering machine business is just a few billion dollars business and completely removed the need of search? What if it is a kind of business that makes hundreds of billions but makes it through selling the product itself? This is fundamentally different from what Google offers.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by onlyrealcuzzo on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:45PM (#34633613)
Any FANNG company has the talent to match ChatGPT several times over.

The idea that maybe Microsoft or Apple or Google or FB doesn't have enough good engineers to code a best-in-class language model is absurd.

They all have orders of magnitude more data than OpenAI to build a better model, though.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by thomas_ma on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:55PM (#34633741)
I think most people agree with you that Google can beat OpenAI on the eng/tech. Scary part for Google is: how do you monetize it? They might “beat” OpenAI with a better chat AI, but if that cannibalizes their $100bn search ad business…they are in trouble
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by midasuni on Thursday February 02, 2023 @05:06PM (#34633870)
Better google cannibaliser it than someone else.

Apple released an iPhone, cannibalising their iPod market.

Google built a great search engine long before they worked out how to monetise it properly. If they can’t get AI working in their products someone else will, and google will go the way of zune.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by pharmakom on Thursday February 02, 2023 @05:58PM (#34634496)
Zune wasn’t the incumbent though.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by htag on Thursday February 02, 2023 @06:20PM (#34634734)
> Apple released an iPhone, cannibalising their iPod market.

This is a terrible example. Everyone knew cell phones were a bigger market than mobile MP3 players, Apple was using this mobile expertise gained in iPod to move to a larger market. We don't know if ChatGPT will be a larger market than search currently is. Digital cameras (include sensors used in webcams and cellphones) are currently a smaller market than selling film was at peak. If ChatGPT will destroy Search volume, and if it will bring in 1/20th the revenue than it might be best for Google to delay adaptation as long as they can.

> If they can’t get AI working in their products someone else will

Google is using 'AI' in all their major products. It's possible that soon AI will make their most profitable products obsolete.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by midasuni on Friday February 03, 2023 @05:18AM (#34639418)
When the iPhone launched everyone knew smart phones were a thing for businesses - locked down blackberrys giving email access. The mobile web wasn’t really a thing.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by scarface74 on Thursday February 02, 2023 @11:30PM (#34637163)
I have no idea why this keeps coming up as an example. Apple didn’t release a cheaper product in favor of a more expensive one.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by scarface74 on Thursday February 02, 2023 @11:29PM (#34637153)
Google’s issue has never been engineering talent. Their issue has always been product management/program management. They don’t have vision or strategy.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by zelda420 on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:58PM (#34633777)
> The idea that maybe Microsoft or Apple or Google or FB doesn't have enough good engineers to code a best-in-class language model is absurd.

Yet Meta's 175billion parameter blenderbot is absolute garbage. Despite claiming stats like 'being twice as knowledgeable' or ' Compared with GPT3, on topical questions it is found to be more up-to-date 82 percent of the time and more specific 76 percent of the time'

Feel free to try yourself.

https://blenderbot.ai/chat

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by onlyrealcuzzo on Thursday February 02, 2023 @05:17PM (#34634009)
That's an AI they released 3 months earlier than ChatGPT, that wasn't built for the purposes of ChatGPT.

At lot happens in the space in 3 months. See where OpenAI was a year ago compared to today...

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by HaZeust on Thursday February 02, 2023 @06:48PM (#34635030)
> "A lot can happen in 3 months"

> "See where OpenAI was a year ago compared to today..."

3 months versus 12 months - a 9 month difference. OpenAI wasn't actually far from today 3 months ago.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by gardenhedge on Thursday February 02, 2023 @06:27PM (#34634828)
Have you seen Bing? Microsoft does not have the talent to tackle great products.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by alfalfasprout on Thursday February 02, 2023 @05:47PM (#34634385)
The reality with ML is at this point it's cheaper to let someone else do the research and then as long as you have sufficient data you can copy the approach.

The complexity is in making it cost efficient to run, making it intuitive to use, etc. That's a problem that google is more than capable of executing on. They'll need to reorganize to pull it off though. They'll even sprinkle ad results in.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by deltree7 on Thursday February 02, 2023 @06:18PM (#34634705)
Queries that generate Ad money are totally different from queries that are Research & Answers.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by topicseed on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:20PM (#34633239)
SEOs (like me) are terrified of Google releasing a proper public Search chat — as people would not really need to visit websites.

But the space is incredibly exciting as a user/searcher/average joe.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by shmatt on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:25PM (#34633310)
LLMs need to consume websites to give answers. No websites = no LLM.

If your websites add no value to the LLM (hence to the searcher, to the world, how deep should we get?), well then thats a good side effect

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by graeme on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:36PM (#34633456)
Yes, the question is how do the websites get a return.

If it’s like a featured snippet, should work great. “Here’s an answer, read more here”

If the LLM Hoovers up all the knowledge and doesn’t show where it got it, then there is no incentive to produce the knowledge

I imagine Google is acutely aware of this, they have a symbiotic relationship with site owners. But we’ll see.

There is some sort of issue here not well addressed by copyright

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by sounds on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:41PM (#34633549)
Really I think the question is around "symbiotic relationship."

Google has failed to win decisively in the search result ranking arms race. Concrete example: sites that rip from stackoverflow have been ranking higher than stackoverflow in google search results. Other search engines fare worse.

If Google trained a discriminator that penalized these practices I think their search product would dramatically improve and the web as a whole might benefit - although tabloid article farms might sue.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by jstx1 on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:52PM (#34633709)
> Google has failed to win decisively in the search result ranking arms race.

They have 84% market share which seems like winning in all the ways businesses care about, regardless of how it ranks your stackoverflow searches.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by luckylion on Thursday February 02, 2023 @05:37PM (#34634254)
The ranking arms race isn't against competitors, it's against SEOs.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by soiler on Thursday February 02, 2023 @05:51PM (#34634426)
That's just applying a completely different and irrelevant metric to dismiss the point of the previous poster.

The arms race of "fast trash" websites vs quality search results is not being won by Google or anyone else as of today. Google having a business model that doesn't even incentivize them to win that race =/= Google not losing that race. It's closer to them giving up in defeat, which is a loss for all of us (many times over).

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by jonathankoren on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:52PM (#34633711)
They can sue all they want, but they don’t have a leg to stand on. There is no right to demand be ranked highly or even at all.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by sounds on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:47PM (#34644873)
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by fragmede on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:30PM (#34633368)
what? the web page throws has good info that gets fed into the LLM. it's that users no longer visit the web page and see ads which pays for the sites operation
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Thursday February 02, 2023 @05:07PM (#34633889)
What if the website does add value to the LLM, but only in the training/indexing stage? Like, if I create a website that painstakingly measures and lists the weights of thousands of widgets, then the LLM ingests that knowledge and then never sends the user to my page.

Maybe it's more convenient for the user to pay the LLM for the info (paid via ad attention or whatever), but if I'm the one who made the measurements, then shouldn't I be paid too? If the user never "pays" me, then I'm going to stop publishing measurements, and the whole LLM falls apart.

Likewise for generative art. The people who made the training data are a critical part of the ecosystem. Cutting them out seems like cutting out some critical part of a food chain.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by topicseed on Thursday February 02, 2023 @05:45PM (#34634365)
And that will be a tough problem to solve but Google may do something similar to what they do with YouTube Premium and paying creators an amount that is based on how much of their content the subscribers of Premium have watched.

Google Search could pay some small percentage back when they use their work. But it would be a weird one so not sure that's really going to happen.

Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:53PM (#34645013)
How is google going to know where to send the check? And who negotiates the rate? We aren't talking about people uploading content to google search. We're talking about information google might take from other people's sites.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by hooande on Thursday February 02, 2023 @05:14PM (#34633963)
do you find that ChatGPT is useful for the search terms that are most valuable to your customers?
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by topicseed on Friday February 03, 2023 @02:42AM (#34638301)
Not there yet, but if google manages to nail it and make it have always current knowledge, it could definitely be.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by scarface74 on Thursday February 02, 2023 @11:31PM (#34637171)
You just made me more hopeful that Google gets it right then. Anything that helps out an end to SEO is a good thing.
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by cmarschner on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:28PM (#34633348)
It‘s somehow relieving to see Google not be in a leader position for one. I‘ve spent a good chunk of my career chasing their tail
Re:Alphabet Announces Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2022 Re... by Invictus0 on Thursday February 02, 2023 @04:20PM (#34633236)
They still sold off