"Remember where ze troops are moving or you vil get ze shock" - Not surprising that electrical stimulation would boost mental effort.

That's an inaccurate description of the paper. The "shocks" are continuous, not reward driven. Both control and experimental groups received the electrical current.

As a person with ADHD I'd be super curious how we respond to it.

BRB just going to find a wall socket

How was it? Are you ok?

yeah, ADHD is a terrible life-destroying menace and it would be nice to have something that could motivate me to eat food more than once every few days.

Or in my case cook the heathy, cheaper, food that I actually enjoy eating rather than the ultra-processed, pre-made, food like substances that make my stomach ache.

That’d be nice, I take Adderall every day and still weigh 300 pounds. It wears off and I crave ice cream like none other.

Have you looked at other similar medications? I'm on Vyvanse, which is very similar except that it only comes in a time-release form. Adderall has a time-release version, but you may not be on that. If it seems to wear off after 4-6 hours, you're not on the time-release version.

I find that i feel the effects of my Vyvanse nearly all day, and it's only for the last few hours of the night that it fades. So though I do have to be a bit careful then to similarly restrict eating, if I can trick myself by like, brushing my teeth early or drinking a lot of water before it wears off, that can help with (though obviously not cure) the binge eating.

I posted above briefly about my experience with a TES device.

While my usage was occasional, I did have a very unique perceived response to a session, and it wasn’t dissimilar to stimulants prescribed for ADHD.

However, that response didn’t last much longer than a few minutes after removing the device. I also didn’t feel the mild pseudo-euphoria I commonly experience with ADHD medication, which seems a significant element of resolving ADHD symptoms.

> I also didn’t feel the mild pseudo-euphoria I commonly experience with ADHD medication, which seems a significant element of resolving ADHD symptoms.

This is more of a side effect, which disappears over time. Relying on the euphoria of stimulants to get work done is a dead end, so be careful with this assumption.

Maybe this is why Apple still hasn’t properly grounded it’s MacBooks, that light buzz you get is a brain boost!

That is not the MacBook itself, it is the power adapter not having a ground pin.

The power adapter extension cord has a ground pin, you can use the extension cord if you want to ground the computer.

Because the transformer doesn't have a metal case and once the voltage is lowered at the transformer the danger of electrical shock is reduced (as in the effects of it) so there's no reason to ground the laptop chassis.

That is probably why it is considered legal to sell the product, yes.

The high frequency buzzing you feel in your hands as you place them on the computer when the incoming power is not a proper clean sinus wave is unpleasant. Stoping that buzzing would be a good reason to ground the adapter even if it not legally required.

> The high frequency buzzing you feel in your hands as you place them on the computer when the incoming power is not a proper clean sinus wave is unpleasant.

I’ve used countless MacBooks over the years across several countries and even on square wave UPS systems. I’ve never experienced anything like this. This is literally the first time I’m hearing about this phenomenon.

The way people are talking about Apple products as having some sort of weird grounding defect in this thread is honestly kind of baffling, given that they obviously have built a product that complies with all international regulations around the world.

They don’t have a grounding defect, they are simply not grounded.

You have to purchase an extra cable with a grounding pin for your power adapter to ground a MacBook.

This is just how ungrounded devices sometimes act when you are able to come into contact with the neutral via some current path. I have LED light bulbs that are like this, you feel a vibration when touching the exposed metal heatsink of the bulb, and some bulb fixtures have started to be manufactured with a ground wire on the chassis just to eliminate that.

I'm more interested in knowing what AC power is being sent down to the laptop in the first place, regardless of the voltage.

It passes through Y capacitor that's there for EMI filtering reasons.

There is a reason to fix it as the comments are showing it, but yes it's not really for safety reason. It's annoying, a shitty user experience and makes it feel like a lower quality product. Even if it's a minor thing some users are still bothered by it but probably not enough to the companies to care.

What's with that? I'm constantly getting minor shocks from my Macbook, often when the inside of my forearm or wrist touches a corner of the case. I thought it was a problem with my old one, but my new one does it too.

There is also a constant light vibration when you run your fingers lightly along the body. It's quite Shocking that this is apparently "normal". None of this happens when it's running on battery.

I was honestly questioning whether there was something wrong with the wiring in my house that was causing this (after having multiple MacBooks with the same issue), because the alternative that a company of Apple’s size had such a basic issue seemed so unlikely.

You or your neighbour probably have some cheap chinese device that puts out high frequency noice on the power line.

Either you get rid of that device or you buy something like this: https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+grounded+extention+cab...

Unless you're running some serious industrial level machinery, home devices have nothing to do with power line noise. It's cause by the air around the lines and the condition of the lines themselves.

I think you are talking about another type of power line noise.

I am pretty sure a bad switch mode power supply, can push out some nasty stuff.

Given that many (most, I'd bet, by far) people don't experience this while you've experienced it on several devices, I wouldn't give up on checking out the wiring in your house.

Are you using your Macbook with an ungrounded (two prong) plug or in an ungrounded outlet ? That's the typical cause of this behaviour (or a badly-grounded outlet, which is rare, fortunately).

The shocks you observe are caused by your body slightly grounding the conductive case. They are seen with any conductive case equipment used without grounding. Fortunately, they are not dangerous on doubly-insulated equipment like Macbooks.

Don't Apple wall warts have only two prongs? It doesn't matter if the outlet is grounded if the device doesn't use the ground pin.

You can get an extension cord for Apple (computer) chargers which also carry a ground signal. Highly recommended.

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK122LL/A/power-adapter-e...

Typical Apple, making you pay extra for something that should come standard.

It used to be standard. I don't know why they stopped including it. Well, actually I do know - $$$

There's a large ground under the removable power plug in iPad/Mac chargers.

It can also, possibly intentionally, be used as a bottle opener.

My new Macbook is ungrounded, my old one was grounded. I experience these shocks anywhere I plug in, not just in one home/office, although some places are worse than others.

Got our kids windows laptops this christmas, and they behave exactly like this when plugged in with the included USB type-c chargers!

> There is also a constant light vibration when you run your fingers lightly along the body. It's quite Shocking that this is apparently "normal". None of this happens when it's running on battery.

I always assumed that was just because the surface has a strange microscopic pattern. I don't have one now, but I believe it only happens in one direction.

The thing I'm talking about feels like a texture but it goes both ways and disappears when its unplugged.

It's due to non-isolated converters where an EMI filter is a part of the line side using X/Y capacitors to cross over. The device isn't solidly grounded but it's also not totally floating either. There's some leakage across it.

Thank you. This seems like the only reasonable explanation I've come across after a ton of reading around.

*its

omg I thought I was the only one. Had this problem persistently when I was at a guest house in the phillipines. I figured it couldn't be safe or good for my laptop but a guy's gotta get paid...

I have that issue when charging my iPad as well

Finally middle management gets to use those cattle prods. Its suprise stimulation time.. while we are at it, lets brand those asses in seats. Yeehaw..

How long can you keep doing this?

electric and/or magnetic stimulation starts to be used to treat depression in treatment resistant patients

I would imagine the brain is responding to an abnormality and releases some stimulant to get you to figure out what's going on.

Clever idea but I really wonder the long term effects!

It depends on the circuit being stimulated but yes there is usually some sort of adaptation with enough exposures to a stimulus over a period of time. Long enough breaks can prevent it though

The current thinking is that it’s an electrical effect.

Brain activity consists of intricate patterns of electrical activity, created as neurons process and transmit information. tACS, the method used here, creates electric fields inside the head, which interacts with neurons’ own electrical activity. The effects are pretty subtle—-it can’t make a neuron spike on its own and thus release neurotransmitter. However, it can shift the timing of spikes caused by its “natural” activity”, and thus change those activity patterns.

(My group looks at this in animal and computational models, where we can measure this directly).

> However, it can shift the timing of spikes caused by its “natural” activity”, and thus change those activity patterns.

That's a super cool activity, sounds so simple to manipulate your brain into the 'productive' behavior.

If only!

The effects turn out to be pretty complicated because other ongoing brain activity shapes the stimulation effect (and vice versa). Sometimes, the same stimulation can even produce totally opposite effects.

Elsewhere in the thread, I linked to an article we wrote about this and other challenges for doing (useful) brain stimulation.

I suffer from mental and physical effort aversion (avolition), I wonder if this could be helpful for me.

I find amphetamines works pretty well for me.

I can't take amphetamines, because I suffered three psychotic episodes in the past.

you're just going to have to sack up and learn discipline

Oh wow, such an insightful comment! I'm cured! /s

The brain can fail and become diseased in multiple ways. Depending on which system gets compromised, the effects can be mild, or serious. The disorders of volition are well-known by those who study neuroscience, and those who suffer them. They are not a "trivial of inconvenience" and no amount of discipline can overcome them. What did I expect? From you nothing at all, because you are not well-versed in the topic, and you don't seem interested in learning about it.

What do you honestly expect? There isn't a pill or shortcut for all of life's struggles. You're on a forum of some of the most motivated people on the planet, crying about the most trivial of inconveniences while some of us scraped ourselves up from actual poverty and strife to get where we are. You're doing yourself any anybody reading a disservice.

You seem to be making a bunch of assumptions about the person you’re replying to.

You know, being compassionate usually feels better than feeling right. Being right also gets you less far in life. Just a little life lesson I learned the hard way after 40 years of "being right". I used to make comments like this. Still occasionally do, old habits die hard.

Anyway, you also find out that being compassionate is also usually more right than being right. The problem is that, when trying to be right, you stop being inquisitive.

Now you might ask, "hey, you know, I always think people are lazy, good-for-nothing whiners, but now you are telling me that there are people that have some kind of neurological problem that makes it a lot harder for them to overcome the initial friction of starting a project/thinking deep?"

Or if you dont follow me in this argumentation: Would you tell a cripple to "Stop whining about the most trivial of inconveniences, and just walk. We all learned to walk as kids, you are doing yourself and all the other cripple kids a disservice!"

Curious if this is similar to the effect of binaural auditory stimulation.

I use Brain.fm for focus and its great.

If you’re curious about how this sort of brain stimulation works, I just published a fun little explainer in PLOS Biology.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou...

Thank you for this! I’m reading now and you strike a nice balance (for me at least) between simple explanations and deeper science.

Do you have any suggested introductory reading material for those interested in neuroscience? More detailed and technical than pop science-esq, without requiring subject matter expertise?

Thanks-that's what we were aiming for!

Are you interested in anything specific? Neuroscience is an absolutely massive field. At one end of my department, some folks are poking at the atomic structure of individual ion channels; at the other, people are looking at how social factors affect the brain and vice versa. It's hard to think of any one book that does it all justice.

On the other hand, there's been a flood of interesting books lately, so there's almost certainly something for you. Since you're on HN, you might like Grace Lindsay's Models of the Mind. It's about using math and physics to probe the brain, but it's a nice light read that focuses on analogies; no walls of impenetrable equations. If you like this, there are a ton of books that dive more deeply into the math to read next.

I've heard good things about Luiz Pessoa's The Entangled Brain, but haven't read it. It's more general neuroscience than focused on applications of math. People love Gyorgy Buzsaki's books Rhythms of the Brain and The Brain from Inside Out. I couldn't really get into them, in part because he was--loudly--wrong about the brain stim stuff in that article--but that's more of a personal beef.

If you want something more like a textbook, the standard is Kandel's Principles of Neural Science. It touches on almost everything, though often not in a particularly exciting or up-to-date way. It's not the worst book for a class, but it'd be a slog to power through in bed. Instead, I'd recommend Levitan and Kaczmarek's The Neuron: Cell and Molecular Biology. It covers a bit less (individual cells up through small neural networks), but I like the writing a lot more.

Another approach might be some hybrid science-biographies. These include Lessons from the Lobster, which is about Eve Marder and her work. The lobster stomach is a really fascinating circuit: seemingly simple, but capable of really complex behavior. The principles she worked out there have huge implications for more complex brains (like ours). Similarly, Brain and Visual Perception is about how David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel worked out some of the circuits in primary visual cortex--and won the Nobel Prize. I have not read Jill Bolte Taylor's My Stroke of Insight, but people seem to like it. It's about a brain anatomist realizing that she's having a stroke. Oliver Sacks' books are probably the standard bearer in this category. Some of the explanations are a bit dated, especially in The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat (understandable, as it's from 1985), but the descriptions of the symptoms are fascinating.

Some anti-recommendations: I'd avoid Rodger Penrose's The Emperor's New Mind. It did get me interested in moving from CS to Neuro, but its explanations are, to put it EXTREMELY charitably, not very mainstream. Jeff Hawkin's book is not nearly as far out there, but his ideas also don't have a lot of traction. Stephen Grossberg's stuff is very polarizing: some ideas are very interesting, but also sometimes presented in ways that don't tie in well with the rest of the field, so I wouldn't start there.

That's a random walk through my reading list! If you're interested in a particular niche, let me know. There's also cool stuff about drugs, weird animals, sensation, etc...

In your experience, do you think there will be future applications for Tinnitus?

A handful of trials have looked at this, and some have found pretty good results. https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=Tinnitus&term=tE...

There's more to do before it's a routine treatment, but there may be something there. Until recently, I think most people have been trying to enhance weak activity with stimulation, but some of our data suggest it's easier to break up pathological activity, which I think is the issue with tinnitus.

What's your opinion on consumer devices like this for tDCS? https://caputron.com/products/brain-premier?variant=42105224...

The simulator itself is fairly simple. At its core, it's just a constant-current source. Make sure that it's safe: isolated from the mains, delivers the right amount of current, and ideally has some cut-offs in case the electrodes come loose (you don't want it to keep upping the voltage if there's a marginal connection).

The bigger question is what you want to use it for. I think we've got a ways to go before we have "fire-and-forget" procedure work for everybody. Depending on where/how/when you stimulate, it's sometimes possible to produce the exact opposite of your intended effect. One of the headsets marketed for improving gaming had a big dust-up over that.

I was considering using it a few times a week to see if there was any lasting improvement in focus. I've used one before years ago that a friend let me try for a few sessions and my subjective experience was that it had some fairly long lasting positive effects, could've been placebo but I figure it's worth giving it another shot.

Thanks for the info, it looks like this device does have an auto-off feature for when the electrodes aren't in good contact and it is battery powered so no mains connection. Also has a ramp up and ramp down for current at the beginning and end.

So tasing people, makes them do stuff. got it.

Nah, it's literally thousands of times weaker; just on the threshold of perception.

I spent ~$600 a few years back to buy a thoroughly tested TES device (https://www.platoscience.com/en-us/pages/product) and I only ended up using it a handful of times for novelty purposes.

My prescribed medication (little orange footballs) regularly helps me overcome executive function inhibition, and I was hoping this tech could work as an alternative or supplement.

There’s a lot of friction in setting up a session, because in order to have proper electrical conductivity, these devices typically require you to add some contact pads soaked in salt water.

It becomes noticeably unpleasant for me after only a minute or two - a very particular hybrid sensation between heat and… tingling? Pinching?

Combined with salt water dripping down my face, the initial appeal faded quickly.

I’d like to try it again, but it’s been sitting in a drawer for years, so I wonder if the battery hasn’t degraded. I don’t think I’d like to replace any components on such a device…

Just an idea, hope it's not stupid: Maybe you can get/prepare some kind if gel solution similar to what they use when doing an electrocardiogram?

Maybe that would make the experience a little better.

A great suggestion, thank you. The issue with this approach is that I have longer hair and a gel may have more difficulty bridging contact between the device and my scalp, plus it likely requires more effort to clean up. I might look into this.

Yup! That's what we do in my lab.

SignaGel is a conductive gel. It'll mostly stay in place and stays wet a lot longer than the sponges, but it is a little gross. Get it from a medical supplier rather than Amazon, where the individual tubes are massively overpriced. You might also be interested in 10-20 paste, which is a sticky conductive putty. It's a bit more expensive, but it stays put. Instead of the bands, you can also try a neoprene "swimcap" style holder.

Some of the tingling is unavoidable--the currents are driving fibers in the skin--but you can do a few things to reduce it. First, make sure there's good contact with the scalp: fully coat/saturate the electrodes and make sure they're pressed tight. The lower the impedance, the better. because the "dose" is specified in terms of current and you want to use as little voltage as possible to deliver that. Second, gradually ramp up the current instead of just switching it on/off. The sensation will diminish a bit over time anyway, so slowly increasing the current will make it more bearable. The difference between on/off and a 30 second ramp is really striking! We've used a topical anesthetic to block sensations, but it's a giant pain--it takes an hour to kick in and you need to tightly cover it too. Finally, be careful because you can burn the skin!

Probably something Neuralink can assist with in future...Zap the brain with electrical stimulation if brain is not willing to engage in mental effort...

I recently got an Alpha-Stim CES device for anxiety, it's used by people to treat insomnia and depression as well. The research is still not enough to make a strong determination on effectiveness of these and I figured it would mainly be a placebo device, but actually I have tried it for the past weeks and found it has helped treat anxiety - a similar impact to taking a low dose of Ativan for me.

It doesn't directly have long term impacts, but I find reducing anxiety in the moment can build up memory for better mental practices in the future. I use it for a 40 minute session 2-3 times a week, especially if things are feeling really difficult when I might ordinarily need to take an anti anxiety med. The effects do last longer then the treatment duration, many hours afterwards for me. It can help me meditate as well, increasing my focus and reducing mental distractions a bit. If you turn it up too high, it starts to give you a dizzy/vertigo feeling, the recommendation is to run it just below that level.

Anyone else have experience with the Alpha-Stim or other CES/tDCS/tACS devices for mental health? I wish the nice research devices like in the study were available to the public, there are a ton of settings and modes they are able to test in studies like this, that you'd have to buy a dozen consumer devices of questionable quality to get any similar flexibility.

I mentioned my experience in another thread - a few years back when I was researching devices, the PlatoWorks TDCS/TES device seemed to have a higher level of scientific rigor behind it than many of the other consumer devices available online.

That is an important addition to our VR headsets

Where do I tape on the wires?

Time to develop thinking caps!

https://youtu.be/SR5BfQ4rEqQ?t=18