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Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by 0xB31B1B on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:15AM (#34591465)
Free transit is stupid. When surveyed, the huge majority (98%) of weekday transit riders say they want increased service over decreased prices. Everyone wants 10 minute or less headways. People will pay 3 dollars for a bus ride if the line has 10 minute headways or less and signal priority, but they won't take the bus if its stuck in traffic and has 30 minute headways. The reality is that transit funding for free transit is zero sum, and the riders of the system would prefer if the money was spent on improved service instead of free fares.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by kennywinker on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:22AM (#34591503)
Your issue seems to be with funding. Fares are usually quite a small component of transit system’s budgets. We don’t require users of city streets to pay fares to use that transportation infrastructure, with exception of the occasional toll-funded highway/bridge/tunnel, and we spend many many billions of tax dollars more on those than we do on public transit. If free transit is a bad idea so are free city streets.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by rayiner on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:31AM (#34591562)
Fares revenues make up half of WMATA’s operating budget, which is on the low side. The London Tube fully covers its operating costs.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by woodruffw on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:48AM (#34591681)
Where did you get that from? WMATA’s farebox recovery ratio is 24%, as of 2020[1].

Edit: And from a quick look, that’s high for the US. The average seems closer to 10-15%.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by arcticbull on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:40AM (#34592001)
fwiw, Caltrain's farebox recovery rate going into COVID was among the highest in the US at around 73%. Bart around 72%. WMATA was about 33%. [1]

[1] https://www.enotrans.org/article/the-mass-transit-fiscal-cli...

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by yellowapple on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:59AM (#34592122)
> Nobody talks about how much the army loses.

I mean, I do. But that boils mostly down to me perceiving more value in a robust public transit network than in a bloated MIC.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by incone123 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:16AM (#34592254)
The average spend on a new car per year is not the same thing as what the 'average American' actually buys. Lots of people keep the same car for many years, or buy used, or even don't have a car.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by arcticbull on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:19AM (#34592268)
Used cars cost roughly what new cars cost still, interest rates are higher than ever - insurance, gas, maintenance, car payments, parking, tickets, tolls, registration, license, etc, etc, it adds up really fast. Since it's so diffuse people aren't as sensitive. Not to mention with a used car w/o warranty you're on the hook for the whole cost if something goes wrong.

Of course there will be outliers, but owning a car is a massive money sinkhole and a disproportionate burden on the poor.

The average car insurance payment alone is $136 (and significantly more for those with 'bad credit' - i.e. the poor). The average monthly transit pass in the US is $83. [1, 2]

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/990891/us-average-monthl...

[2] https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/insurance/how-much-is-car...

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by WillPostForFood on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:00AM (#34591764)
2020 data is totally wrecked because of Covid. Check the 2019 data for comparison. Average is 39%. NY was 54%, WMATA was 39%.

https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/2020-11/...

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by Retric on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:28AM (#34591933)
That 39% is for all transit Bus is 19.7% Nationally and 13.6% for WMATA.

Nationally in millions, Bus: (Fare Revenues 3,778) / (Operating expenses 16,110.4 + Use of capital funds 3,0444.7) = 19.7%. They also break out Bus Rapid Transit which is much worse 16.1 / (166.1 + 51.7) = 7.4% as is Commuter Bus 57.9 / (597.7 + 170.7) = 7.5%

Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority, Bus: $124,011,141 / ( $731,946,008 + $182,850,687 ) = 13.6%

So for WMATA forgoing Bus revenue wouldn’t move the needle very much.

PS: And that’s ignoring the overhead of collecting fairs. Skip that step and busses can move faster.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by cinntaile on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:37AM (#34592769)
* * *
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by Retric on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @07:55AM (#34594474)
The driver or buss still needs to verify your ticket.

Compare a line of 20 people all try to get on and swipe a metro card vs a line of 20 people all trying to get on. Even collage busses where all people need to do is show school ID you still get people in line who suddenly can’t find their ID.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by cinntaile on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @08:45AM (#34610278)
A public transport bus usually has several entrances, you can have a machine inside the bus at each entrance. Not everyone will play nice and pay if the bus driver doesn't check the ticket, but you could have random controls on the bus from time to time. In practice you of course have to weigh the costs of these different approaches.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by woodruffw on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:10AM (#34591832)
Thanks! I’ll note that that’s still a far cry from half, but it’s certainly more favorable than 24%.

(NY’s 54% number is probably because of mixing of different fareboxes: recovery is much higher on the LIRR and MNRR than it is on the city buses and subways.)

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by arcticbull on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:47AM (#34592046)
Incidentally broken out at [1], the 2019 MTA recovery rates were:

- MTA heavy rail was 70%.

- Commuter rail was 55%.

- Commuter bus was 32%.

- BRT and Bus was 30%.

[1] https://www.enotrans.org/article/the-mass-transit-fiscal-cli...

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by KerrAvon on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:05AM (#34592168)
Tube fares are extremely expensive compared with other European transit systems.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by dx034 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:36AM (#34592387)
And yet people happily use it, even in parts of London where it's feasible to go by car. One of the biggest reasons is probably that the tube has high frequency on all lines, much higher than most other cities.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by minitoar on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:27AM (#34591533)
arguably fuel tax is that fare
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by mertd on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:32AM (#34591567)
If fuel tax is enough why do we keep passing trillion dollar infra bills and allocating majority of it to road repair?
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by Bluecobra on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:50AM (#34591704)
The current fuel tax (in the USA) not enough. Federal fuel taxes have not been raised in 30 years and not adjusted for inflation/cost of living. I’m sure it would be a political death wish to try to raise it again.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_Sta...

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by wahern on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:41AM (#34592010)
Fuel tax is complicated by the fact that poorer families tend to live further away from work and thus drive more, both because housing is cheaper the further away from a city you get, but also because non-skilled labor doesn't aggregate along transit corridors the same way it does for office workers. So a low fuel tax is in effect a subsidy to the poor, notwithstanding that it also benefits corporations which maintain the infrastructure. You can see this in every part of the world--cheap fuel is the easiest way to placate the working class.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by arcticbull on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:02AM (#34592142)
> Public transit can be a remedy, but outside Manhattan I don't think any locale in the U.S. has remotely the density to make it truly viable at scale for the poor and working classes.

Chicken and egg. Density is built along transit because transit supports dense houses. Build transit, get density. Fail to build transit, get sprawl.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by wahern on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:19AM (#34592275)
> Build transit, get density.

Building transit does not guarantee you get density. There are regulatory hurdles at play. In California, for example, cities will often be forced to up-zone the immediate couple of blocks around a station, but then everything else beyond that remains zoned for single-family housing, or at least zoned for far less density than the market could support.

Moreover, there's a time gap between when housing is built and when it becomes economically accessible lower down the income ladder. New housing is expensive, even absent regulatory hurdles, and affordability mandates can't magically change financial viability. New housing can have immediate effects on housing costs, but indirectly on the costs of older housing; and on a regional scale it takes awhile to incentivize people at the periphery to move inward.

Long-story short, to get from the current equilibrium to a more optimal equilibrium requires careful, coordinated policy management across decades. We could and should start, but we live in an age where if people don't see results in 6 weeks, they complain; and even when there are results, they still complain. They complain, vote people out, and vote in new people that promise more immediate results, but invariably can't deliver meaningful results.[1] I mean, this is how democracy has always worked, but the public reactions are far more compressed, while the necessary time spans for effective change are no shorter than they were before.

[1] Case in point: rather than improving public transit, the popular panacea du jure is free fares. Free fares will not improve public transit in any way shape or form; if anything, they'll hasten its degradation. They'll make it cheaper for some, but for the most part not those at the bottom of the ladder, who already enjoy free transit. These gimmicks are popular because they're immediate.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by minitoar on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:16PM (#34598054)
I didn’t say it was enough, I was just pointing out that it’s analogous to a transit fare.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by atyppo on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:37AM (#34591603)
Car culture is massively subsidized in America. Why are we subsidizing (overwhelmingly wealthy) owners of EVs? Can I get a tax credit for an e-bike?
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by Overtonwindow on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:08AM (#34591816)
Not quite true… A few years ago, the district of Columbia decriminalized fare evasion. So many people stopped paying the subway fare that the gap in the budget became very significant on the order of millions of dollars.

What you see as a small component of transit systems budgets, they seem to see as a quite significant part of their budget.

I think this is going to lead to worst outcomes, and a worse funded system.

"Metro estimates it lost $40 million due to fair evasion in the 2022 fiscal year."

$40 million is not "quite small"

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/metr...

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by bradleyjg on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:13AM (#34591851)
Fare evasion is now de facto legal in nyc as well as the DAs refuse to prosecute. The MTA estimates it’ll cost $500 million a year.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by kennywinker on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:33PM (#34598360)
I don’t trust those “lost revenue” figures. What are they based on? My city used to not have fare gates. They made up insane estimates for how much adding fare gates would increase revenue - when the gates went in it ended up costing far more per year than it earned in increased revenue.

And 40 million is not a small number for a person, but for a city with a budget of about 20 billion it’s not a very large number at all - especially when viewed in comparison with spending on roads and bridges. You don’t have to spend billions on another road bridge if everyone is taking the train

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by Overtonwindow on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @08:31PM (#34605103)
I can't really do your research for you, but I guess if you looked at the budgets which are publicly available for the Washington metro area, transportation authority, you might find out.

Also, WMATA's budget is separate from the city...

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by viknesh on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:18AM (#34591888)
I'm not sure that it's just funding. Collecting fares also creates capitalist incentives which is ultimately good for an end user, since the transit system is incentivized to do things (increase frequencies during rush hour, create more reliable systems) in order to collect additional fare revenue.

You could argue that it's all "just funding," but fares can help to prioritize work which will help collect the most future fares, creating the largest positive impact for end users.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by woodruffw on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:40AM (#34591620)
This is in conflict with public transit in many European cities, which is (1) free or nominally priced, (2) has favorable headways compared to nearly every US city, and (3) is more sustainably funded than public transit in the US.

I frankly wouldn’t mind paying more for public transit, but making it the crux feels roughly analogous to corporate ”greenwashing”: push the responsibility onto individuals and we can conveniently ignore the structural changes needed to make public transit systems grow and thrive.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by raldi on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:41AM (#34591630)
First make it good, then make it free.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by woodruffw on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:44AM (#34591647)
There’s no intrinsic ordering here: making a public transit system better requires justification through ridership numbers, and making your system free is a fantastic way to improve those numbers.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by raldi on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:50AM (#34591703)
Why do you believe that? American transit experts are saying things like, “I’ve heard people describe the free fare movement as being a movement for free, terrible service, and that’s how the trade-off ends up working if you expect this to happen inside the budget of an impoverished American transit agency" and "if a transit agency had to choose between devoting funds to reducing fares or to maintaining or improving service, most riders would prefer the latter. It also suggests that the notion of making transit “free”—though politically appealing —would provide less utility to the public than if the equivalence in foregone revenue were spent improving service and continuing to charge a fare."

Sources: https://slate.com/business/2021/06/free-transit-is-not-a-gre... https://transitcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/TC_Whos...

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by bombcar on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:09AM (#34591826)
By definition existing riders are those already willing to pay the fee, so of course they’re going to want better service via no fee.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by ratchetbob on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:50AM (#34591696)
which cities have free or nominally priced transit? Certainly not Paris, anywhere in Germany, Switzerland, Amsterdam, etc.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by woodruffw on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:03AM (#34591781)
The Paris metro is €1.90 (from a quick online search), which I’d argue is pretty close to nominal: it’s substantially below even the cheap public transit systems in the US like the NYC subway.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by ratchetbob on Monday February 13, 2023 @04:02PM (#34780408)
NYC subway is $2.75 / trip. Before the euro lost value those would be equivalent rates.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by rippercushions on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:08AM (#34591820)
Single fares in Switzerland are indeed extortionate, but there are a wide variety of passes that cut costs considerably, including one that gives you free travel throughout the entire country.

https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/railpasses/ga....

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by incone123 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:30AM (#34592350)
There's a pass that gives actual free travel, or just unlimited travel for a fixed price?
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by rippercushions on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:23AM (#34593076)
You pay CHF 3860 upfront, and you get a magical card that lets you ride (almost) every train and bus in Switzerland as much as you like for a year.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by loeg on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @11:01AM (#34596816)
That's about $11.50/day, including weekends, or $16/biz day. For a commuter, that's $8 each way. That is a pretty substantial fare.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by Semaphor on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:51AM (#34591715)
Which European cities are those? I heard one or two with free transit, which ones are "nominally priced"? In Germany, it’s decently expensive.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by woodruffw on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:00AM (#34591762)
Tallinn is the most famous free one, I think. In terms of nominal pricing, I was thinking of Grenoble, where it was around $2 USD equivalent when I was there there.

Edit: Another example is Prague, which is around $1.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by loeg on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:10AM (#34591829)
~$2 fares are common in the US and I would not describe that as "free or nominally priced."
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by woodruffw on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:13AM (#34591853)
Okay, but do an in-kind comparison: can I take a public tram for ~$2 in similarly sized US cities?

I can’t think of many; the first that comes to mind is Portland’s MAX, which is $2.50, has a smaller network with longer headways, and services a much larger metropolitan area as justification for its existence.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by Rebelgecko on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:33AM (#34592368)
Not sure how the headway and network size compare, but Los Angeles light rail is $1.75. Good deal when you compare the cost of living to most of Europe!
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by loeg on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @10:48AM (#34596605)
I agree that some European cities subsidize transit somewhat more than most similar-sized US metros.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by alibarber on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:07AM (#34592187)
Tallinn is not (all?) free. The tram is at least €1.50 for 90 mins transfer. Helsinki is €3.10

I live in Helsinki and spent a lot of time last year in Tallinn - the ‘transit is free in Europe’ thing is very much an exception rather than a rule.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by yasinaydin on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @05:11AM (#34608579)
Free public travel is only for Tallinn residents (main address registered inside Tallinn city borders).

I think there's also free public travel for tourists with cars if they park their car (in certain places or under certain circumstances).

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by throw_m239339 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:53AM (#34591720)
> This is in conflict with public transit in many European cities, which is (1) free or nominally priced, (2) has favorable headways compared to nearly every US city, and (3) is more sustainably funded than public transit in the US.

In which European capital cities bus fairs are free?

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by TulliusCicero on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:56AM (#34591739)
Luxembourg, I think?

Haven't heard of any others, though.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by woodruffw on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:14AM (#34591866)
I didn’t know Luxembourg! Tallinn was the one I was thinking of.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by acomjean on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:28AM (#34591537)
I went to umass amherst which had a free bus system which I used regularly. It was pretty great, you didn’t have to think about it. Also without having to make sure fairs paid up people could get on from the middle of the bus instead of just the front door which seemed to speed the boarding process.

I work in the longwood area of Boston. There are private bus routes that make up for the lack of good public transit for the area. It’s also free with Id.

https://www.longwoodcollective.org/lma-shuttles/shuttle-rout...

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by jacoblambda on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:44AM (#34591648)
Worth noting that university transit systems are very much not free. The fees are just included in your tuition. For Amherst specifically, this is covered by undergrad students' tuition and graduate students' service fees.

For context the grad student service fee is around 300-700USD per semester depending on how many credits you take.

So by no means is it free. I do agree with you though that universal access to transit makes it a lot more pleasant and speeds up boarding quite substantially.

https://www.umass.edu/bursar/fee-explanation

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by acomjean on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:54AM (#34591725)
The busses I took were the “pioneer valley transit authority”.

Apparently they do charge some routes, but the ones operated by umass now are free to students.

They’d actually train students to drive the buses. ( still do apparently) an interesting skill to leave university with. https://www.umass.edu/transportation/now-hiring)

Umass was interesting. The fees were how they kept money at the school as tuition went to the states general fund. Sports were always covered by those fees which was free basketball tickets (though it was a lottery when I left, but I worked at the paper and would take pictues..)

It was a while ago that I was there (last century..)

https://www.pvta.com/

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by Broken_Hippo on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:09AM (#34592204)
Also without having to make sure fairs paid up people could get on from the middle of the bus instead of just the front door which seemed to speed the boarding process

This is just a rule they've made: You can have both fares and boarding at any door in the bus. I know this because this is how the busses in Trondheim, Norway are. You can't always pay on the bus, so everyone has their ticket before they get on. They have spot checks by folks that aren't bus drivers. Does it cause some folks to risk not buying a ticket? Yes, but it is obviously not worth doing more checks.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by redox99 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:23AM (#34591515)
Isn't public transportation already heavily subsidized? Surveyed people might not understand that to increase spending 2x without any increase in subsidies, fares might need to 5x or 10x.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by heavyset_go on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:30AM (#34591547)
It is, and at least the cases I'm familiar with, fares are sometimes nominal fees. Commuters wouldn't be able to afford the real cost of public transportation if it needed to be solvent and funded by fares alone.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by braingenious on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:19AM (#34591488)
What percentage wanted increased service and decreased price? Was the question phrased “Pick one (1) of the following two things”? I would love to see the data on “What would improve your experience using public transit?”
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by tshaddox on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:31AM (#34591560)
Are the fees there to actually provide a meaningful portion of the funding, or just to make rich people who don’t use public transit feel like it’s more fair because the poor people don’t get to ride for free? I’d be surprised if the fees are meaningful on many transit systems, especially if you also throw out the costs of selling the tickets and enforcement.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by BuyMyBitcoins on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:46AM (#34591663)
>”Are the fees there to actually provide a meaningful portion of the funding, or just to make rich people who don’t use public transit feel like it’s more fair because the poor people don’t get to ride for free?”

It is entirely the first reason - mass transit is not cheap and fares help alleviate the burden of the subsidy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by tshaddox on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:36AM (#34591979)
Recovery rates are almost all under 20% in the US, and these numbers don’t even incorporate the cost of selling tickets and ticket enforcement or the costs of the initial builds and expansions (which are almost entirely paid for by the taxpayer).
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by BuyMyBitcoins on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @09:31AM (#34595419)
That’s still a significant amount of money, even though it’s under 20% of the total operating cost. For most of the entries in that article it covers tens of millions of dollars.

I don’t think the cost of issuing tickets and enforcement is that significant compared to how much money collecting fares brings in. It certainly doesn’t seem like something that is done at a loss or something that barely breaks even.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by tshaddox on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:35PM (#34601574)
It's not nothing, but if the goal is to turn a profit it's nowhere close. On the other hand, if the goal is to get more people riding public transit, I'd want to look into how removing fees might help that goal.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by chimeracoder on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:50AM (#34591694)
> I’d be surprised if the fees are meaningful on many transit systems, especially if you also throw out the costs of selling the tickets and enforcement.

Almost no public transit system has a farebox recovery rate even close to 100%. For municipal service (ie, excluding specialty transit), even 50% is almost unheard-of in the US, and only a few systems in Europe exceed 50% as well. In the US, the better transit systems have a farebox recovery ratio of 25% or less. In other words, over 75% is already funded by taxes, not by point-of-service.

Enforcement is a huge cost. In fact, in NY, the government has decided to spend increasing amounts of money over the last five years on police presence to combat "fare evasion", even though their own numbers show that the amount of money they are "losing" to fare evasion is less than the amount they have decided to spend on the additional police dedicated specifically to fare evasion.

So yes, it's a political, choice, not a fiscally rational one.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by piperswe on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:10AM (#34591828)
Almost no _Western_ public transit system, that is. High farebox recovery rates (>100%) aren't all that uncommon in Asia.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by chimeracoder on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:17AM (#34591880)
> Almost no _Western_ public transit system, that is. High farebox recovery rates (>100%) aren't all that uncommon in Asia.

Sort of, not exactly. Asian countries typically report their metrics differently, so they look much higher, but it's because they have non-fare sources of revenue that provide a massive source of income which they combine with their fare revenue for reporting purposes. So it's not an apples to apples comparison.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by prawn on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:00AM (#34592134)
Is advertising revenue for public transport at a level where it's useful incorporating into data?
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:31AM (#34591558)
the reason to do free buses is that making people pay slows the bus down. it's not a major slowdown, but 1s per rider adds up. Also decreasing price does increase demand which helps justify increased service.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by loeg on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:57AM (#34591744)
Make people pay at the stop before they board.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:04AM (#34591789)
that costs a lot of money maintenance and sidewalk space. it's a lot cheaper and easier to just take it out of taxes
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by katbyte on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:17AM (#34591878)
It also costs a lot of money to collect and enforce fares.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by Scoundreller on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:21AM (#34591501)
98% of consumers of any product/service would be willing to pay more but most places don’t allow this kind of price discrimination.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by charlieyu1 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:32AM (#34591572)
I mean this can be solved by giving discounts to elderly/disabled/poor people
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by heavyset_go on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:46AM (#34591665)
At some point, means testing for a $1.50 bus ride is going to cost more than it saves and can become a barrier to the ridership that it's intended to encourage.
Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by chimeracoder on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:30AM (#34591549)
> The reality is that transit funding for free transit is zero sum

Except it doesn't have to be zero-sum. A government can decide it wants to prioritize public transportation. It doesn't have to be be zero-sum.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by ravel-bar-foo on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:44AM (#34591646)
> The reality is that transit funding for free transit is zero sum

This is not necessarily true. If reducing fares increases ridership it may allow a strong case to be made for increasing the system funding.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by missingcolours on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:32AM (#34591955)
That's usually the political calculation for free fares (aside from the virtue signaling aspect) - free fares = more riders = more political support for increased public funding.

The potential peril is that compared to the counterfactual of spending this money on improved service, free fares may attract few new riders or fail to generate additional political capital, or even lead to reduced funding if transit starts to be seen as a welfare expenditure rather than a system for everyone that pays for itself to some degree.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by greggarious on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:47AM (#34591675)
It's not free transit unless they include WMATA (the subway).

Very few people commute via bus in DC. I rarely did it because often traffic would make it take a long time even though I lived in the district.

Re:D.C. free bus bill becomes law as zero-fare transit syste... by pugworthy on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:07AM (#34592188)
It's been free in my city since 2011 and it's great from this smaller town's perspective. Perhaps "stupid" applies to big cities or certain demographics, but to smaller towns and low income people it's a proverbial godsend for transportation to work, school, etc.