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Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by b3orn on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:13AM (#34567774)
> It probably amounted to a real crime.

I'm not a lawyer, I have no idea how criminal law in the USA works, but why would this be a crime? He didn't fake a Department of Defence ID, he created an ID for a fictional Department of Defiance, it may look similar, it may appear as a "real" ID because it's not just a piece of paper, but it's about as real an ID as a gym membership card.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by lqet on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:21AM (#34567840)
But you wouldn't board an international flight with your gym membership card.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by ztrww on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:11AM (#34568236)
I would if I could..
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by rcstank on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:48AM (#34568590)
In 2023? No. In 198X? You didn’t even need an ID.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by dghughes on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:34AM (#34568995)
I drove alone to the US from Canada for a trip in 1999 no passport (never had and still don't have one). The US Border Agents used my driver's license as proof of my ID.

But they were convinced my goal was to go there to live. they tore my car apart, took everything out of luggage. They let me go but thought I was never coming back.

All I was doing was going to a Thanksgiving dinner in Scranton.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by lancepioch on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:11PM (#34570175)
I think it was about 2008-2009 that Canada started requiring US citizens to have their passport. Before that, they would take most US state ids.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by zeroonetwothree on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:13PM (#34570190)
How do you know what they thought? And if they truly believed that why would they let you through?
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by dghughes on Monday January 30, 2023 @03:00PM (#34585551)
Because one border guard in particular specifically stated that he didn't believe me but there was nothing he could do to prevent me from entering the USA. But if it were up to him he would not let me enter and would send me back to Canada. He was a dick I remember him even 24 years later. The other guards were much more professional.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by raverbashing on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:23AM (#34568891)
I don't think gyms even do that anymore. It's mostly electronic tags/cards now
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by Shraal on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:24AM (#34567857)
I'm also not a lawyer but AFAIK it often boils down to intent. You could argue that he tried to deceive someone with it.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by VWWHFSfQ on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:34AM (#34567927)
I don't even think it's arguable. He intended to deceive a Secret Service officer with fake federal government credentials, and apparently succeeded in doing so. I believe that is a felony. The judge may reduce the charge or throw it out later though because of the obvious wackiness of it.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by zinekeller on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:39AM (#34567974)
Yeah, the ID itself might be judged confusing enough to be legally a counterfeit (which is a crime in itself) while the intentional intent to deceive lawful authorities adds another case to the table.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by bushbaba on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:35AM (#34569011)
He’s Woz. A household name. I suspect the secret service agent also noticed it being a fake ID but didn’t want to deal with the litany of paperwork in arresting woz for the crime. Maybe the agent also got a chuckle out of it as well.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by ShamelessC on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:47AM (#34569117)
Hate to break it to you, but if "Tim Apple" isn't a household name, Wozniak certainly isn't. Steve Jobs _maybe_ is, but even that is likely overestimating the public's knowledge.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by everforward on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:44PM (#34570550)
Not a lawyer either, but this doesn't appear to statutorily require intent. This is the relevant law[1].

I think the easiest way to prosecute this would be under the "authentication features" section:

(1) the term “authentication feature” means any hologram, watermark, certification, symbol, code, image, sequence of numbers or letters, or other feature that either individually or in combination with another feature is used by the issuing authority on an identification document, document-making implement, or means of identification to determine if the document is counterfeit, altered, or otherwise falsified

If he had replicated any of those things, he committed a crime just by making the ID. Using the ID likely has additional penalties, but just making it is a felony by itself. It seems likely he did, because I think missing seals and watermarks (if those existed at the time) would stand out as obvious to a secret service agent or the TSA.

1: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1028

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by zuminator on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:13PM (#34570902)
If Sara was 12 when this happened then this occurred around 1998 or so. At that time the "authentication features" provisions of the law didn't exist, as they were added in 2003. (See the "Notes" tab in your link).
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by everforward on Monday January 30, 2023 @11:10AM (#34581642)
Good catch, I stand corrected!
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by sandworm101 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:48AM (#34568037)
Giving a false ID to law enfordement? That is a crime. Giving a forged ID to the secret service, the people in charge of detecting counterfeiting? That's just idiocy. Misspelling department of defense doesnt make the ID ok any more than printing a tiny lol in the corner of your fake dollar bills.

(Also, falsely claiming a relationship with the military is downright dishonerable.)

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by hueyluey on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:19AM (#34568318)
What do you mean by "dishonerable" here? Is this an instance of how Americans love the military so much that it's difficult to understand for people from other countries (where being a military isn't different from being a shop owner, or carpenter or doctor or whatever)?
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by coeneedell on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:51AM (#34568619)
No matter what country you’re in, the military is in a position of authority (except maybe Costa Rica). Generally people consider a lie to be worse if it’s a lie you can use to get power.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by xkqd on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:07AM (#34568736)
And usually a position of sacrifice. Therefore, it’s pretty respected over here and making a false claim is pretty taboo.

Definitely taboo enough to get you chewed out, and almost enough to risk a physical altercation.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by scarface74 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:46AM (#34569110)
I once ran a 5K as part of an Army fundraiser. It was for civilians. The Army gave every runner a T-shirt with the Army logo very prominent.

Someone asked me when I was in the Army and not thinking about why they asked I just said I wasn’t.

They almost started to chew me out until I mentioned it was given to me as part of an Army sponsored fundraiser.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by waltbosz on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:02AM (#34569263)
Reminds me of a time in 7th grade when I wore a band t-shirt that I had received as a gift. A kid in my class took exception because he doubted that I even owned any of their albums. The kid called me a "poser".

It also makes me think of my uncle who is a very proud labor union member. He gets upset if anyone says anything disparaging about labor unions.

My point is, it sounds to me like people taking honor in being a member of an exclusive club, and they don't like it if other people do things to belittle their club membership, like by pretending to be a member.

I wonder if there is some psychological term for that behavior.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by projektfu on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:09PM (#34570851)
Maybe it falls more under group dynamics/sociology. Interesting question.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by tekknik on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:42PM (#34575531)
Your comment is rather offensive. Stolen valor is a crime. Wearing a band t-shirt while not listening to the band is not. Military members risk their lives for others. People that do this get respect, be it a Dr, Military, Police, etc.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by dragonwriter on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:52PM (#34575588)
> Stolen valor is a crime.

A civilian wearing an army T-shirt is not “stolen valor” in the sense that stolen valor is a crime, so this is, at best, equivocation.

While I believe (but I don’t feel like checking the UCMJ) there is a much more extensive crime (or set of crimes) relating to stolen valor within the military, the crime of stolen valor that it is possible for a civilian to commit consists of, and (outside of selling military decorations) only of, fraudulently claiming one of narrow set of awards with the intent to obtain money, property, or other tangible benefit, specifically: a Congressional Medal of Honor, a distinguished-service cross, a Navy cross, an Air Force cross, a silver star, a Purple Heart, a Combat Infantryman’s Badge, a Combat Action Badge, a Combat Medical Badge, a Combat Action Ribbon, a Combat Action Medal, or any replacement or duplicate medal for such medal as authorized by law. 18 USC Sec. 704.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by tekknik on Monday January 30, 2023 @10:44AM (#34581151)
I didn’t say a civilian wearing an army shirt is stolen valor, however pretending to haven been in the military while never having been is.

Wearing a band shirt and an army shirt are not comparable at all. The default thought when someone sees someone wearing a military shirt is “oh they were in the military”. The thought when wearing a band shirt certainly wasn’t “oh they must be in the who”.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by dragonwriter on Monday January 30, 2023 @11:45AM (#34582386)
> I didn’t say a civilian wearing an army shirt is stolen valor, however pretending to haven been in the military while never having been is.

Again, no, not in a sense of “stolen valor” where “stolen valor is a crime” is true, it isn’t. You are still engaging in thebsame equivocation where you are trying make an argument grounded in “this behavior has a name which is also the name of a crime”, even though the behavior in question is not within the scope of the definition of the crime. Fraud is a crime (older than “stolen valor”, which is a novel 21st century crime in the US), pretending to have been in the military other than as part of a fraud scheme is not. (ISTR at least one state has proposed a more general ban on this, but even if it passed it would likely be struck down aa violating the First Amendment, just like the earlier and somewhat broader version of the Stolen Valor Act was.)

> Wearing a band shirt and an army shirt are not comparable at all.

To the extent that there is a defensible argument for this position, it doesn't involve invocations of non-germane criminal law.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by waltbosz on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @11:13AM (#34612588)
I apologize for making you feel offended. That was not my intent.

I wasn't trying to make light of the service of military members. I agree that it is wrong to try to obtain fake respect.

I was just recounting two specific tales from my memory about people being defensive against others disrespecting their social circles. I find the behavior interesting ... maybe because I have never felt that way before about something.

When I mentioned psychology, my curiosity was in the context of behavior psychology (what is the word used to describe the behavior), not in the context of a mental illness.

Incidentally, I did like the band's music, I just didn't own any of their albums.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by quesera on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:15AM (#34569430)
> No matter what country you’re in, the military is in a position of authority

In the United States, the military has no authority over citizens. It's a foundational law. Exceptions can be made under temporary and unusual circumstances.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by sandworm101 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:25PM (#34571044)
Authority isnt the word. Im in the military and that gives me absolutely zero authority in civilian life. It would be a crime for me to even attempt to wield such. But i do expect a modicum of extra respect for people who give up time/money/priviledges of civilian life in order to serve thier country. I dont expect cops to let me get away with speeding, but i do expect them not to detain me by the roadside in uniform for a "random" check.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by z3c0 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:00PM (#34571428)
I agree with you overall, but that "serve their country" line makes me cringe every time. The military's operations are vast and numerous, but also politically-motivated and, at times, disgustingly utilitarian. Obviously, no grunt should bear that burden, but I feel better served by the post office.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by sandworm101 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:58PM (#34572031)
It is cringe worthy, but when you get orders for a multi-year posting far away from friends and family, it really does feel like servitude. It was -30 outside this morning. My car hates me for bringing it here.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by z3c0 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:05PM (#34572115)
Without a doubt, it is servitude, but I feel it downplays the plight of servicemen like yourself to roll it up into that "of country". The expended lives towards obtuse ends is far more tragic than that of something noble like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I wish you luck on your tour, wherever it is.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by sicp-enjoyer on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:46PM (#34572560)
Do you think the soldiers should see themselves as capitalists in it for themselves?
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by z3c0 on Monday January 30, 2023 @08:06AM (#34579090)
Yes, because we all are by merit of participation alone, and servicemen are often baited into enlisting via capitalistic motivators (enlistment bonus, GI bill, insurance, etc.) We'd be dealing with reality, not the denial proliferated by force in boot camps.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by quesera on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:52PM (#34572618)
Some people join the military to serve their country.

But everyone in the military is indoctrinated to believe that they are serving their country.

Some of them are shipped overseas. Some live in Virginia Beach. Some are physically endangered. Some sit behind a desk.

There are good and noble people who choose a life of service. Some of them are in the military. Some of them are food kitchen volunteers.

Not everyone in the military is noble, or serving their country. Any more than any other federal employee.

It's difficult to know the appropriate level of respect or honor to give to a random person displaying the paraphernalia of military service. "Thank you for your service" is free, and perhaps genuinely felt and received in some cases (but also vacuous at times).

I've worked with a lot of ex-military folks. And several members of my family are current or former members. I can't think of a single trait that is common to all of them.

Not physical fitness. Not leadership skills. Not honesty or honor or respectability. Not intelligence or grit or perseverance or fashion sense.

The median is probably higher than the average across the whole population. So there may be a correlation. Except fashion sense!

However this does not persuade me that there's a reason to differentially treat military vs random citizens in your example of a traffic stop. But I'm also not a cop!

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by lobocinza on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:36PM (#34575222)
Most like Top Gun?
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by tekknik on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:47PM (#34575557)
> Not everyone in the military is noble, or serving their country. Any more than any other federal employee.

I stopped reading here. Every military member swore an oath. They have no choice of duty, but they still swore the same oath to die for their country. Anybody attempting to minimize their sacrifices should remember things like Pearl Harbor, which killed all indiscriminately. And remember that desks fit in tents fit on ships and in tents, which are themselves in active war zones.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by quesera on Monday January 30, 2023 @12:56AM (#34576271)
Stripped down, this is an appeal to emotion.

It feels good and honorable to say, just like defending a member of your family. That is a goal of the mythology, and it works! It's a hell of a drug.

I don't intend to criticize the military -- combat or non.

But the psychology of it is fascinating.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by tekknik on Monday January 30, 2023 @10:47AM (#34581221)
You said a whole lot of nothing here. Tell me how those willing to die are somehow the same as someone not and it’s somehow psychological?

This seems like a psychological issue with some demanding they have given just as much, and are just as important, yet are too scared to pay the ultimate price.

Or how about the psychological issue that results in hatred towards the military? That one I witnessed personally and I find very interesting.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by quesera on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @06:49PM (#34604113)
Some people love the Kool-Aid, some people drink it out of convenience, some people detest all sugary drinks on principle, and some people just find flavor chemistry to be fascinating.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by sandworm101 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:48PM (#34575572)
There is professional curiosity amonst the "armed" professions. Being in the military also means, to a cop, that you probably dont have any warrants out of you and that you have a job, two things they cannot assume about the random people they interact with every day.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by lttlrck on Sunday January 29, 2023 @04:48PM (#34573118)
Sorry to be blunt, but you chose that life. There are vast numbers of people serving their country economically (albeit perhaps indirectly) in uncomfortable circumstances and they all deserve respect.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by tekknik on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:49PM (#34575573)
So what happens when nobody chooses that life? Will those contributing economically experience the safety they need to do their business?

Additionally how many business owners are willing to die for their business?

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by tengwar2 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @07:28PM (#34574334)
I disagree. I can't think of any western country where the military are in a position of authority. It's something we have got rid of over the past 50 years, with the end of the juntas in Greece, Spain, and Argentina; Franco's Spain; and so on. There are some countries where the military are not running the place, but are "kingmakers", but I can't think of any western ones.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by teknico on Monday January 30, 2023 @01:58AM (#34576663)
Italy is such a western country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by WXLCKNO on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:13AM (#34568789)
I think that's what he means too. Other people are talking about sacrifice.

It's a job, like any other job. People do it because they want to get paid and military worship is ridiculous.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by influx on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:51PM (#34572609)
Serving in the military is different from other jobs as soldiers may be sent to dangerous situations where there is a risk of death. Although many Americans believe the decisions made by politicians that put military personnel in harm's way have not been good, this does not take away from the bravery of those who voluntarily choose to serve their country.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by WXLCKNO on Monday January 30, 2023 @09:23AM (#34579902)
"Voluntarily"

They need a job and being a soldier is a job. A glorified one where words like bravery and valor are thrown around in the US to make people accept risking their life in a noble way.

And I realize that some people will actually be driven by these ideals and there are things like military families where this tradition is actually strong and it gives them purpose but for the average soldier, they just needed a job and the propaganda worked.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by mojomark on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:03AM (#34569273)
Hard to answer this without delving down a political rabbithole. In the USA, there is sentiment for both military service members (not to be conflated necessarily with the military industrial complex or military campaigns), "first responders" (police, firefighters, EMS and hospital workers, etc.).

The sentiment for the military and first responders is that they either have already, or could at any moment, be called upon to put their health and life at risk on behalf of the rest of us citizens and allies - so that the rest of us can live a free and peaceful life in pursuit of happiness. The sentiment is one of sincere gratitude of the deepest variety.

I personally don't think the existence of this ID card mocking the DoD is anything but harmless fun. In fact, the freedom to make such content is a part of the freedom of speech the DoD works to protect. However, as much as I enjoy Woz, I agree that giving a false ID to someone a law enforcement agent who is simply trying to do their job, isn't smart or too funny, it's intentionally obfuscating a process and stealing time (tax payer dollars) from the agent trying to do their potentially deangerous job and prosecute true bad actors.

Law enforcement in the US is far from perfect, and trust me, there's a place and value to peaceful civil dissobedience. However, there's also a psychological and monetary cost. The costs of Woz's act seem very benign to me, but I can see how others could easily get spun-up about it - especially if your job is law enforcement.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by quesera on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:42AM (#34569813)
Americans want to believe. Call it "optimism", if you're feeling generous.

American exceptionalism is a thing to believe in which satisfies all of the needs of a believer. It's part of the belief triad "god-family-country".

The military is an extension of the country. There is very little visible military presence in the US, and the military has no role in civilian affairs except in cases of temporary callup for natural disasters etc.

And yet it's a very big military, so everyone has some adjacency to present or historical members of the military.

In short, it's the perfect object of optimistic belief. The military is consistently the "most trusted" part of American society -- perhaps because all the things it does, it does elsewhere.

And for the most part, American foreign policy is pretty similar across political lines, so there's no inherent partisan rift, making it an easy and safe thing for everyone to agree on.

A foreigner might argue that that is a flimsy basis for belief. They might point to some tragic events visited upon the world by the US military. They might say that Normandy was a long time ago and it doesn't justify everything that's happened since then.

Many Americans would agree with that. But that's the outsider's view. First and foremost, internally, the military is a jobs program. And it's very very good at that! Tons of training and education, incredible amounts of commerce and technology, genuine personal development, and on the whole very little international malfeasance.

Americans are optimistic people.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by latchkey on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:16PM (#34570230)
> Americans are optimistic people.

My optimism died the second time Bush Jr. was elected, but I'm only 49.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by z3c0 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:53PM (#34571344)
I think the political group being spoken of here would've been the crowd reinvigorated by his election.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by latchkey on Sunday January 29, 2023 @05:46PM (#34573580)
Mission accomplished
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by red-iron-pine on Monday January 30, 2023 @11:41AM (#34582292)
Defense contractors are and will continue to make millions.

Cost of the Bush Era wars will probably reach $2 Trillion due to long-term healthcare costs for veterans (on top of the bombs and MRAPs and M-16s, etc.).

One of the biggest financial coups in US history. Mission Accomplished indeed -- cuz that's what he was celebrating with that flight.

Search for the list of the richest counties in the US, and notice how many of them are in the Greater Washington DC area (VA & MD).

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by fundad on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:59AM (#34570021)
Military and police are America’s most popular social programs, have the most powerful constituencies and their budgets grow constantly.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by xeromal on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:37PM (#34570462)
In the US, the military is actually used for combat operations so the risk of being injured or killed is higher than being "a shop owner, or carpenter or doctor or whatever". The majority aren't but you're still signing up for it when you join so you are given an amount of elevated respect. It's not something you sign up for willie nillie. You're obligated to serve for at least a tour (4 years I believe) and in those 4 years, you've lost every bit of free-will. It's a sacrifice that I wasn't willing to make so kudos to those who do.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by neoromantique on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:49PM (#34570609)
As almost everywhere in the world.

Enrolling into military is a choice and you know risks beforehand, there’s nothing about that choice that deserves worship-like cult status military has in US.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by sicp-enjoyer on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:52PM (#34572614)
And why do you think they take those risks? Do you think they would if people treated it like a job at mcdonalds? Would their families support them in being away for so long for 30k/year?
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by quesera on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:56PM (#34572657)
Some of them absolutely would, yes.

But psychologically, the drive to be a part of something important is very strong, especially in young men.

The military has a rich mythology that plays into, and perpetuates, this.

This is not bad or unhealthy! But it is also not inherently good. There are other groups which use the same tactics to recruit people for bad services. It very very much depends.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by sicp-enjoyer on Sunday January 29, 2023 @08:28PM (#34574793)
I completely agree, but I think that "rich mythology" you refer to is fueled by the public also believing in it to a great extent.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by quesera on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:44PM (#34575270)
For certain. It's a symbiotic relationship.

But like any source of low-cost energy, some of it is diverted into unproductive things!

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by Aeolun on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:50PM (#34570621)
> In the US, the military is actually used for combat operations

This is true for most forces. All the US allies working in Iraq/Iran weren’t robots.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by throw_away1525 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:57PM (#34570701)
murdering brown people for fun and profit isn't something i'm willing to give kudos for but uh you do you I guess
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by sicp-enjoyer on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:45PM (#34572539)
Consider the following:

1. Although military people are paid, it's not enough to compensate the amount of time, health risks, and loss of normal rights and freedoms experienced by young people.

2. Are we better off or worse off if people think of service as just a job to pay the bills? I'm not naiive about this, but we want people to take it seriously, not treat it like a retail job at the mall.

3. A small number will ultimately die. I think you would be a foolish leader/government to give those people who died for you anything but respect if you hope for similar sacrifice in the future.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by ztrww on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:15AM (#34568274)
> false ID

Showing a counterfeit driver’s license, passport etc. is obviously a crime. What he did was equivalent to showing your company issued ID. Would that be a crime?

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by sandworm101 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:52AM (#34568629)
It had a logo meant to fool a casual observer into reading "department of defense". Inserting a misprint doesn't make something ok if they decide you were intending to create a false impression in a hurried cop.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by hanselot on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:27AM (#34568922)
Would a secret service officer be considered a casual observer?
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by lr1970 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:47AM (#34569124)
> Giving a forged ID to the secret service, the people in charge of detecting counterfeiting?

Well, he was on a thin ice but nevertheless still within bounds of the law. He did not forge or fake the ID, it was a fictitious one like Disney World passport. The ID had his real name on it, no lies there. The $2 bills were legit as well. And mocking federal agent was not a crime.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by monocasa on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:49PM (#34570608)
Presenting a fictitious Disney World passport to law enforcement as a real ID would be just as much as a crime as trying to deposit fake money from a child's playset at the bank. It's the action of trying to deceive that pushes it into criminal territory.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by zuminator on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:03PM (#34570792)
If it has his true name and photo on it, it's real identification. It's just not official or governmental identification. What makes a forged ID "forged" is not that it's not state issued, it's that it passes itself off as being state issued.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by monocasa on Sunday January 29, 2023 @01:10PM (#34570876)
A reasonable person would interpret it as a department of defense ID. That's the standard that is going to be used against you in court. Identification intrinsically has provenance at the core of it's concept.

Just like you'd be fucked if you tried to deposit dollars for the federal bank of amerigo, your fake country.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by golemotron on Sunday January 29, 2023 @10:43AM (#34569082)
> I'm not a lawyer, I have no idea how criminal law in the USA works, but why would this be a crime?

The US has streamlined this relative to other countries. You don't have to commit a crime, you just irritate a LEO and they find the crime for you.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by zeroonetwothree on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:14PM (#34570204)
The US is hardly the country with the most law enforcement corruption. Indeed we are pretty low on the list.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by retrac on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:40AM (#34569786)
Not a lawyer either, but in Canada the core issue would be intent to decieve or mislead, as with fraud in general. It's not illegal to use a fake name or alias, nor print your own IDs (as long as you're not forging government IDs). But doing either to manipulate through deception, or mislead investigators, is a crime - fraud or public mischief. I believe it's broadly similar in the USA? Now, he may have lacked the intent to actually make it a crime, but I wouldn't want to have to argue that in front of a judge.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by njharman on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:11PM (#34570167)
It's a Felony to lie to federal agent. Who doesn't know that?

  Under 18 U.S.C. § 1001, it's a felony crime to: make a “false statement” to an agent of the > federal government related to a federal matter.
  ...
  A “false statement” can be:
  a material omission.
  a material misrepresentation, or.
  using a fraudulent document.
Proffering a fake id when asked for a real id is clearly using a fraudulent document.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by techdragon on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:18PM (#34570260)
Yes but it wasn “fake”… it was “entirely made up”. There’s a legitimate difference here that I’m sure lawyers would have a field day with. And I’d imagine the agent would have requested additional Id if they actually cared since it’s a simple enough thing to ask again if they took one look at it and weren’t satisfied.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by brookst on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:20PM (#34572291)
“One simple trick” wasn’t a thing back in the timeframe of this story. No gold-fringed flags, no sovcits, no “technically I didn’t lie”.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by techdragon on Sunday January 29, 2023 @09:52PM (#34575309)
I l mean, even without invoking sovereign citizen craziness, it’s pretty easy to imagine a legitimate lawyer arguing the difference between “fake id ” as in an identity document fraudulently attempting to look like a legitimately issued document, and “made up” as in bearing no more than a superficial resemblance to other legitimate identity documents. Now obviously the self confessed train of thought of him deliberately taking the chance to see what the agent would do, definitely comes close to outright mens rea but it’s still arguably not an admission of intent to mislead, and it would all come down to the lawyer… if the agent even cared. Discretion used to be a big part of the “investigation cop” toolkit psychology wise, and fraudulent currency investigation by a secret service agent is much more serious than “this guy shows me his made up id card”
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by brookst on Thursday February 02, 2023 @01:31AM (#34622930)
It’s easy to imagine that, but it is not realistic to think it would actually happen.

In the event it got to court, any sane lawyer would advocate for a yes it was wrong, but there was no ill intent defense. Trying to split hairs about the difference between a “fake id” and merely a made-up ID would just be digging deeper into the hole.

When you’re pulled over for 70 in a 60, you own it, acknowledge the mistake, and hope that recognizance is enougn to get you off. You don’t create elaborate sophistries to “prove” that 70 is actually the same thing as 60, or that the signs that say 60 really mean 70. Nobody buys that kind of thing.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by etothepii on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:18PM (#34570256)
Is it a fake id in this sense if it had his real name on?
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by AlecSchueler on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:21PM (#34570294)
It wasn't issued by the entity claimed so yes.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by 0134340 on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:50PM (#34570613)
It wasn't issued by the Dept of Defiance? I'd say it defiantly was.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by brookst on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:27PM (#34572344)
So if I go to a bar with an ID from Missisippi, that’s not fake ID because I just made that state up?

Please do not try this kind of thing in real life.

Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by Aeolun on Sunday January 29, 2023 @12:53PM (#34570647)
I’m wondering if you could argue that you were asked for ‘an ID’, not ‘your US passport or drivers license’.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by somebodythere on Sunday January 29, 2023 @07:45PM (#34574461)
You could argue it, but I doubt the argument would withstand an encounter with a judge.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by P_I_Staker on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:53PM (#34572630)
Just lying to a federal agent is a pretty serious crime, I think. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume trying to pass a fake ID could be one, also.
Re:Steve Wozniak used to tip from printed sheets of $2 bills by frozenport on Sunday January 29, 2023 @04:47PM (#34573105)
Additionally impeding an investigation by wasting time is a crime.