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Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by rkta on Monday January 16, 2023 @07:26AM (#34399928)
> Image 3, Ken Thompson working on the PDP-11 using a Teletype (model 33?). What always struck be about this image is the atrocious ergonomics of … everything. The keyboard, the chair, everything about the posture: it’s all terrible. Inventing Unix almost seems easy compared to dealing with that!

I've seen this photo a hundred times and never thought about that. I wonder when ergonomics started being a thing when designing computer workplaces.

Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by enriquto on Monday January 16, 2023 @07:40AM (#34400023)
Brian, on the other hand, has an excellent, powerful posture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0 (see from 4'10). Feet on desk, keyboard on lap, reclined seat, talking about unix filters.
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by rkta on Monday January 16, 2023 @08:50AM (#34400610)
If you are building an OS and someone is making a movie about it you gonna make sure you look cool. I'm not convinced this is how he worked every day.
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by gavindean90 on Monday January 16, 2023 @10:32AM (#34401595)
Everyday? No, sometimes? Probably.
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by sn41 on Monday January 16, 2023 @07:56AM (#34400125)
I have always noticed it, since I get a stiff back often. Office furniture has improved by a great deal.
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by amelius on Monday January 16, 2023 @08:35AM (#34400461)
Back then you had to pound on the keys, which made you develop strong hands, like a piano player.
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by 082349872349872 on Monday January 16, 2023 @08:41AM (#34400509)
I sometimes wonder if having learned to touch type on mechanicals* has protected me from RSI?

* carriage return used to be huge honking lever

Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by karmakaze on Monday January 16, 2023 @09:49AM (#34401177)
I'm imagining it on the right side, but it must have been on the left to return the carriage to where the hammers can hit the page at the left margin.
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by 082349872349872 on Monday January 16, 2023 @10:56AM (#34401898)
... or you're imagining an RTL typewriter: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2384/6833/products/DSC_026...
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by hackermatic on Monday January 16, 2023 @12:50PM (#34403377)
It depends on the typewriter. The Remington 12 has the carriage return lever on the right side: https://typewriterdatabase.com/Remington.12.42.bmys
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by hackermatic on Monday January 16, 2023 @01:02PM (#34403508)
If anything, speaking as someone who has RSI and collects typewriters, you've been spared despite them. The traditional typewriter keyboard arrangement with rows increasing in vertical height as they move away from you is precisely the opposite of what you want, ergonomically.

It's strange to me that so many computer keyboards still have fold-out tabs at the back to emulate this. I even saw an old PS/2 keyboard with terraced rows just like a typewriter! But habit is a powerful thing. Pardon the tangent, but we're using an 1870s design whose main constraints were making room for key levers to travel up and down (which is also why we have staggered keys instead of an ortholinear grid). The funny thing is that there were decades more of alternative typewriter keyboard designs (look up the Hammond 1 for an example), but the first commercially successful typewriter, the Sholes and Glidden, is the one that won out in the end.

Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by hh2222 on Monday January 16, 2023 @10:40AM (#34401676)
I recall the KSR33 as being quite enjoyable to type on. The machine only required a light touch.

There was a different flow to programming on continuous paper where you could easily look back over your work. I would tear off the program to study it.

Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by gjvc on Monday January 16, 2023 @10:36AM (#34401650)
* * *
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by kjs3 on Monday January 16, 2023 @11:38AM (#34402376)
Remember that the Teletypes were old school telco, mostly output devices, repurposed for computers. They were constructed first to be extremely durable, and then somewhere way down the list of requirements, easy on the users. The typical use case wasn't to pound on them all day long (tho some did), and you can tell.

Seem to recall that ergonomics really took off in the 80s and 90s, as people started suing for things like RSI which made companies start to care. I remember that was when everyone seemed to be swapping out for adjustable chairs and bolting keyboard trays on desks and having everyone take ergo training.

Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by bbarnett on Monday January 16, 2023 @12:57PM (#34403456)
They were constructed first to be extremely durable, and then somewhere way down the list of requirements, easy on the users.

I watched this documentary, about a huge computer, just massive, huge, and a guy called Forbin. It showed governement spending out of control, and the ensuing disaster, although I was a bit high at the time, and the plot eluded me.

Anyhow, the terminals seemed much nicer than you describe, so maybe it was down to the employer?

Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by wombatpm on Monday January 16, 2023 @02:21PM (#34404442)
You only needed to enter a few commands to process your stack of punch cards so ergonomics didn’t matter
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by thaeli on Monday January 16, 2023 @03:48PM (#34405292)
Ergonomics still mattered for making the punch cards in the first place - and the machines for that used similar keyboards.
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by rep_lodsb on Monday January 16, 2023 @03:44PM (#34405251)
"Colossus: The Forbin Project"? Not a documentary though.

Military computer joins up with its Soviet counterpart and takes over the world. There may have been some teletypes, but the more memorable output device was the big scrolling line of text.

RESTORE COMMUNICATION -- FROM COLOSSUS -- TO GUARDIAN -- OR ACTION WILL BE TAKEN

Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by bbarnett on Monday January 16, 2023 @04:35PM (#34405800)
Nono, it was, it was crafted after the history book of the same name, which was written by Musk.
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by jhoechtl on Monday January 16, 2023 @11:45AM (#34402466)
Link to an image?
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by rkta on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @03:54AM (#34410468)
It's image 3 in the linked article.
Re:ASCII table and history – Or, why does Ctrl+I insert a Ta... by reaperducer on Monday January 16, 2023 @11:50AM (#34402517)
I wonder when ergonomics started being a thing when designing computer workplaces.

IME, it was the early to mid 90's. Suddenly there were consultants for everything, and office/ergonomics consultants started popping up.

I suspect it's related to the shift to the widespread use of computers in the office. Carpal tunnel syndrome went from obscure to an "everyone knows someone with it" kind of thing. I knew someone who eventually had to wear big arm-length metal braces while using a VT-52.

The bean counters figured out that if they made small-money adjustments to their workplaces, they could save big money on health insurance premiums.