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Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by ubertaco on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @09:30AM (#34245859)
Last time they did this, it was _right_ after the window that they had grandstanded and asked other companies to pledge no pandemic layoffs.

Benioff did a whole media tour talking about how Salesforce would do no pandemic layoffs to set some kind of example, and said that they didn't expect other companies to follow their example, but asked them to just pledge no layoffs for 90 days, even though Salesforce was going to do better than that.

Around 91 says later, Salesforce laid off 10% of the company, with no prior warning to the employees who were laid off. The atmosphere internally from the top down was outrage that any of the employees who were laid off would mention that they got laid off to their family/friends/coworkers, and that doing so was somehow a betrayal of "trust".

Brett Taylor, who was then the "co-CEO" (read: Benioff's cleanup crew and babysitter), led an all-hands a month or so later where they took no questions and referred to this as a "one-time reshaping exercise". Benioff slipped up and told MSNBC that this was an annual thing. Brett Taylor pretended not to know Benioff had said that, and acted like it never happened.

This all-hands was a full month after the all-hands that took place the same week as the layoffs. In that one, they took questions, but since all the questions were about the layoffs, they acted like nobody had submitted any questions and the Q&A host came up with some softball "what projects are you excited about"/"what's the biggest challenge with being a market leader" ego questions instead.

I didn't believe that it was "one-time" then, and today I've learned that I was right not to. I left before it became a habit, and have only been relieved to have left.

I wonder when the next annual 10% layoffs will happen at Salesforce? Because it's pretty much the only thing I'd trust them to do reliably at this point.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by bombcar on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @09:35AM (#34245922)
well sounds like we can expect them next year.

What I don’t understand is why they don’t stretch it out over the whole year - less than 1% a month could be relatively easily “hidden” even if people kinda know what is going on. Average churn might be lower than that, even.

Which makes me think it’s performative and they WANT the shareholders to see it.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by kcplate on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @09:39AM (#34245966)
> less than 1% a month could be relatively easily “hidden”

If your a public company it’s not hidden. Analysts are watching everything. A one time even might hit your stock and then it starts to recover soon after, but an ongoing event would raise suspicions of a deeper problem.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by mgkimsal on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @09:44AM (#34246027)
maybe they could start to move to more 'contract/project' folks, vs 'employees'. rotating short term contractors would be similar amount of 'churn' but might be seen as more strategic/focused investments vs having to grow headcount only to want/need to do layoffs regularly.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by mbesto on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:50AM (#34246974)
Also, you make these announcements to appease analysts, not to be hidden from them.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by conductr on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @09:48AM (#34246086)
Yeah I agree. Something about actions being louder than words here. I will say spreading it out creates a worse environment of fear from employees. It’s like pulling a bandaid off slowly. This way, the survivors know they’re safe for some period of time and can focus on longer term things. They likely feel that they can tread water performance wise and make it through the next year too. They can also approach their personal finances from an assumption of having a paycheck for the next year at least. These things are typically to address the under-performers and misfits that come with hiring thousands of people each year. It forces the business to reevaluate its needs based on its goals on a cadence. Otherwise you end up with a bunch of Milton’s in the basement (to use an Office Space reference).
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by gitfan86 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @09:55AM (#34246166)
How would that work? Identify the 10% in December and then slowly remove them? Or have your management go through a 1% low performers identification process every single month? The logistics of both options are difficult to pull off. It is especially hard to keep the layoff list secret.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by michaelt on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:24AM (#34246576)
Department A, in January we need you to cut the lowest performing 10% of your employees because we're raising the bar of excellence.

Department B, in February we need you to cancel the lowest-ROI 10% of your projects as part of a strategic realignment to focus on our core goals.

Department C, in March we need you to lower your ongoing costs by 10% by whatever means you think is best, to ensure we're on a stable footing financially.

Department D, in April we need you to chase the last Widget Classic users onto Widget Cloud and wind up the team working on Classic.

Department E....

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by ubertaco on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @09:59AM (#34246217)
"Performative" _is_ the word that comes to mind most often when I think of the years I spent at Salesforce.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by PartyOperator on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:25AM (#34246596)
A lot of people still love the idea of rank and yank even if you can't do it overtly.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by hotpotamus on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:01AM (#34247161)
There's a reason that slowly removing people one-by-one is a common horror movie trope.
[dead]
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by dang on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @02:01PM (#34249852)
Please don't cross into personal attack. You may not owe CEOs better but you owe this community better if you're participating in it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by bajirao on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:30AM (#34246675)
As an ex trailblazer I can confirm this. That all hands was unreal. Everyone was asking about layoffs on all-hands slack channel, and Mark/Brett were demoing upcoming new features in their Work.com product.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by gedy on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:17PM (#34248420)
Yeah I really don't understand that style of "leadership". I'm no CEO, but even a simple blow off like this would be more effective: "I know everyone has a lot of questions and concerns about the recent layoffs, but since emotions are strong right now, we'll collect these and discuss them next time"
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by ubertaco on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @01:52PM (#34249744)
Salesforce operates in a "zero-trust" environment, in that employees should place zero trust in the company, and the company places zero trust in the employees.

It's just modern security practices! /s

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by bajirao on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @02:56PM (#34250536)
Whereas _every_ internal Salesforce townhall type meeting starts with 'Trust is our #1 value'.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by steveBK123 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:49AM (#34246964)
Co-heads is always a subtext for executive disfunction. I don't think I've ever heard of it working out long term at any level from division co-head to co-CEO.

It's also fascinating the opposite direction is also allowed to persist - the guy who is CEO of 4 companies at once.

As a lowly high income IC, I am prohibited from almost any outside business activity and in some cases forced to divest when joining a new firm. Somehow the guy running the company who has actual ability to make conflicted decisions is allowed to moonlight? Fabulous.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by akiselev on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:39AM (#34247794)
Go ahead, name a country that doesn't have two presidents. A boat that sets sail without two captains. Where would Catholicism be without the popes.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by LanceH on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:45AM (#34247890)
Buffet/Munger seems to be the biggest exception to the trend.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by jmharvey on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:05PM (#34248219)
If anything, Buffett/Munger proves the rule: on the org chart, there's no question that Munger reports to Buffett. In practice Buffett isn't trying to call shots day to day, so Munger is functionally in charge of the org, and when he succeeds to the Chairman & CEO title, nothing will really change, but the fact that he's not fighting for a Co-CEO title is a positive sign.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by throwaway5752 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @01:12PM (#34249205)
Munger is 99 years old, he's 7 years older than Buffett. They have been partners for almost 50 years. He's not going to succeed anyone!
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by tiffanyh on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:17AM (#34247431)
> Co-heads is always a subtext for executive disfunction

It's actually worked quite well at Oracle over the decades.

Benioff, who is former Oracle, hasn't perfected it like Larry has.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by steveBK123 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:19AM (#34247467)
Every rule has an exception, and maybe Larry has perfected something there or has a very well managed ego.

Most Co-head situations I see are either higher-ups setting up a power struggle between 2 newly appointed co-heads, or an existing head pretending to step back by appointing someone as their co-head who they can sabotage in real-time.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by tiffanyh on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:23AM (#34247548)
I wonder if the dynamic is simply ownership.

Larry is still the largest single stockholder of Oracle (~27%). So everyone knows he still runs the company at the end of the day.

Benioff only owns ~2% of Salesforce. There's institutional investors who own more of Salesforce than even Marc.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by steveBK123 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:04PM (#34248207)
Another fun example is Deutsche Bank.

Their first non-German leader (Anshu Jain, who didn't speak German) was made Co-CEO with an older German hand Jürgen Fitschen from the board.

They pushed out Jain after 3 years, brought in a Brit John Cryan (who spoke German!) to co-CEO with Fitschen. Fitschen stayed on another year after which they finally let the non-German, Cryan run the place as sole CEO for 2 years before replacing him with another German as sole CEO.

So in total there were 4 years of non-German co-CEOing with a German, 2 years of a non-German actually being sole CEO, and then back to a German again like the rest of their 153 year history.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by tibbydudeza on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @02:54PM (#34250510)
SAP tried the co-CEO thing but Jennifer Morgan was gone in a year - suspect her not being based in Waldorf or familiar with Hasso.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by andsoitis on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:56AM (#34247074)
> Co-heads is always a subtext for executive disfunction. I don't think I've ever heard of it working out long term at any level from division co-head to co-CEO

Don’t VC’s generally prefer that a startup has co-founders? Having such a team mate fosters better decisions, acts as cheerleader when one person is feeling down, etc.

I don’t see a material difference between that and having a co-CEO setup…

What do you think?

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by yojo on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:08AM (#34247269)
Even with co-founders, one of you is still the CEO.

You need an executive function to set direction and unblock stupid territory squabbles. Someone whose decisions are final. If you have two actual CEOs, you don’t have that.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by steveBK123 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:14AM (#34247364)
Someone has to be 51+% either way..
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by andsoitis on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:23PM (#34248493)
HBR has an interesting, recent article about why, in some cases, it might be better to have two CEOs: https://hbr.org/2022/07/is-it-time-to-consider-co-ceos
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by ghaff on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @03:05PM (#34250668)
Good read.

The one time I've seen this situation has been as a board member of a small non-profit. This was ages ago but, as I recall, there were two well-qualified candidates for an editor-in-chief position. It seemed a case where if we appointed one, the other would walk. So we made them co-editors and it didn't go well.

But I can imagine circumstances when it can work with the right people and circumstances.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by steveBK123 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @06:29PM (#34253523)
Exactly.. probably instead of ending up with 1 happy person and the other walking, you ended up with 2 unhappy people and both eventually walking!
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by NhanH on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:07AM (#34247249)
VC also strongly suggests that it is made clear one person is the CEO, so when push comes shove, some one can make a decision and things can be resolved. I remembered reading it is better to have 51/49 rather than 50/50 equity for that reason. Though to be honest I am not sure if I read that in the “good advices you should follow” or the “shitty toxic advices you should avoid”. Hard to differentiate sometimes.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by mschuster91 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:02AM (#34247174)
> It's also fascinating the opposite direction is also allowed to persist - the guy who is CEO of 4 companies at once.

That amount is, I think, only applicable to Elon Musk and it looks like this is going to crash sooner or later anyway - the big Tesla investors are all furious about how much wealth Elon's shitposting has cost them and I would not be surprised if they threaten him with the choice of continuing to tweet or getting ousted. In any case, even he was a paper-only CEO at SpaceX anyway, Gwynne Shotwell has run the ship for years now.

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by steveBK123 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:18AM (#34247433)
Sure, and Jack Dorsey was Block/Square & Twitter at same time and we see how that worked out. Also Bluesky which is like a Decentralized Twitter, the thing he just helped sell to Elon? All while being a big BTC pumper..

So, I think you can replace "4" with "N where N>1"

Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by not_enoch_wise on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:18PM (#34248425)
I too am wondering why Elon is only running a single digit count of companies. Think of how much faster the singularity would arrive if he was running 10+ corporations!
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by Der_Einzige on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @01:42PM (#34249609)
Uhh, Oracle is the obvious counter example. They've had co-CEOs and their stock is on fire right now.
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by dilyevsky on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:01AM (#34247151)
I think Silicon Valley (the show) did this
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by prettychill on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:20AM (#34247481)
The post pandemic layoff was nowhere near 10%
Re:Salesforce will lay off 10% of staff as part of restructu... by ubertaco on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @01:50PM (#34249720)
My sense of scale is a bit thrown. I think at the time with all the uncertainty and the inability to trust corporate leadership, I trusted the largest number I heard as internal scuttlebutt, which was 10%. The actual number was somewhere around 1,000 to 1,500 people, which was like 5% or something of the company.

...but was still 1,000 to 1,500 people.