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Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by causality0 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @10:55AM (#34207310)
it’s not possible to use Linux on the desktop, or to only use Linux on the desktop

Does anybody say this? I've always interpreted the phrase "year of Linux on the desktop" to mean a year when people who wouldn't list "computers" among their personal interests were noticeably using it on their desktops. That still hasn't happened. There are a lot of "year of the -" things I've seen come, when things that were used by professionals and nerds entered common usage and parlance, like burning a CD or installing Firefox (granted those have come and now gone).

You ask a normie "what's your opinion of Windows 10?" and they'll have one, good or bad. You ask a normie what their opinion of Linux is and most of them won't even know the word, let alone have one. That's why it isn't and may never be "the year of Linux on the desktop".

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by danieldk on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:17AM (#34207557)
Yeah, the 'Year of Linux on the Desktop'-trope comes from the end of the nineties. Mainstream Windows was still the Windows 9x branch. Consumers didn't switch to the NT line until Windows XP. And there were a bunch of well-funded Linux distributions that wanted to be serious competitors to Windows (Corel Linux, Caldera OpenLinux, etc.). Given the sorry state of Windows at the time and the strong interest of the industry and press in Linux, there was a contingent within the press and Linux community that believed that desktop Linux could replace Windows. Which lead to the regular question "will this be the year of Linux on the desktop?".

The year of the Linux desktop didn't happen (unless you consider Android phones desktops), but Linux has been massively successful in other ways (servers, phones, embedded, IoT). If anything, the underlying OS matters less and less, since applications are steadily moving to the web (for better or worse).

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by ghaff on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:45AM (#34207882)
It also came from an era when utter Microsoft dominance seemed like an existential threat to many people--and the native desktop (and its applications) was an important front in that war. So winning over a material number of governments and companies to Linux, OpenOffice, etc. on PCs seemed an important objective.

Today, what operating system people choose to run on their desktop/laptop just isn't a terribly important question any longer in the scheme of things especially given that most live largely in their browser anyway.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by ofrzeta on Sunday January 01, 2023 @01:33PM (#34209184)
> given that most live largely in their browser anyway

You mean like ... in MS Edge?

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by ghaff on Sunday January 01, 2023 @02:09PM (#34209599)
Yep with 4.5% browser market share, Microsoft Edge has sure crushed the rest of the industry. [1]

Teams is better in its category at 16% but that's a case of Office 365 pulling in teams rather than the other way around. (The same way Google Workplace pulls in Meet.)

[1] https://mspoweruser.com/edge-november-2022-desktop-browser-m...

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by ofrzeta on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:34PM (#34210573)
From the chart you posted the desktop market share of Edge is 11%. It's the second most used browser behind Chrome. Also I wonder what's the "category" for Teams.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by ghaff on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:35PM (#34211212)
Ah, the 4.5% was from a different article and I linked to this one.

Teams is video conferencing software. It competes with Zoom, which is the category leader, Google Meet, Bluejeans, Webex, etc.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by pjmlp on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:21PM (#34210440)
Regarding Android, there is hardly any Linux on it besides the Linux kernel, which isn't exposed as stable API to Android's userspace.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by NotYourLawyer on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:33PM (#34211201)
Linux is the kernel.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by pjmlp on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:47PM (#34211337)
Which is something that those that equate Android with GNU/Linux keep forgetting.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by dredmorbius on Monday January 02, 2023 @07:21PM (#34225726)
Whilst I agree strongly with your general point: Android is not GNU Linux (that is, the Linux kernel plus a userland largely based on and around the GNU's Not Unix toolchain), there is Termux, an Android app which provides a Linux-like userland, including X11 applications for what it's worth. You'll need to install it through a third-party app store or source, such as F-Droid.

Software is packaged under APT, and whilst the package selection is markedly less than, say, Debian (roughly 70k distinct packages last I checked), there are now several thousand available packages, plus more available through Python, Ruby, Perl, and Node.js package managers (and probably others).

You're still subject to Android limitation:

- No general filesystem access outside Termux's and specifically-shared areas.

- Very limited file permissions options unless rooted.

- No privilege escalation unless you've rooted your device.

- Android's mysterious and quite frequently annoying app process management killing off sessions with no discernible rhyme or reason, let alone owner-based control.

But you'll get all the standard base shell utilities, scripting and programming environments, a selection of networking tools (which function again depends in part on whether your device is or isn't rooted), editors, and even a number of servers, though typically running on high-numbered (unprivileged) ports. There's also a slew of tools for interacting with Android itself, including clipboard, screen brightness, wifi, flashlight (if available), "toasts" (alerts/messages), and more.

Termux has long been the one Android app Which Does Not Precisely and Exactly Suck. It was the first app I found which made the OS vaguely useful to me rather than a captured walled-garden toy.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by hosh on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:26AM (#34207643)
I noticed that normies — my extended relatives, SCA folks I know, neighbors — spend their time on mobile and not on the desktop. And Windows is as frustrating to them as anything else. They don’t really care if it is Windows or Linux; it’s mostly a means to get to the browser, or something their desk work requires it.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by ozim on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:57AM (#34208034)
So I believe since most of them use Adnroid (tablets/smartphones) possibly it is already that Linux achieved goal of pushing Windows out of the window.

While desktop computing still has its value everything shifted and yeah fight from 1990s or 2000s does not matter anymore.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by gsich on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:05PM (#34210267)
Android is Linux only in kernel. Also it's not a desktop environment.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by KyeRussell on Sunday January 01, 2023 @08:45PM (#34213253)
Android’s prevalence should not remotely be considered a victory for the desktop Linux ‘advocates’ because it basically happened almost entirely orthogonally to any of their efforts. The desktop Linux advocates of the 2000 and beyond infuriated me because they were/are in such a bubble that they thought/think that the typical Linux desktop experience was remotely tenable for a civilian, and somehow would mentally blank out all the times they’ve needed to monkey about in the terminal to get something to work.

Of course this entire thing is inconsequential first world problem BS, but within that sphere the desktop Linux advocates certainly don’t deserve to take that W.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by ozim on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:04AM (#34215510)
That is also my point - whole game shifted.

Maybe to clarify, by Linux I did not mean any people like "Linux advocates". What I wrote is about Linux as an idea of open kernel that won on its own.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by askiiart on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:19PM (#34208297)
In my experience, 99% of people just want a browser and maybe Microsoft Office. Plus maybe some other software to work with random stuff. Office works with compatibility layers, so just the "random stuff" category, and the occasional printer issue, are all I see keeping most people from using Linux. That and not knowing about Linux in the first place.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by everdrive on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:41PM (#34208594)
Typically the thing that keeps people from using Linux is their lack of comfort actually installing an operating system. Why do I believe this? Because smart phones are popular and Chromebooks are popular. A Chromebook is generally much _more_ restricted than Linux, and an Android or iPhone is at minimum a different user interface which cannot run the same software, or be installed the same way as Windows. But technically illiterate people have adapted to this just fine.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by galangalalgol on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:40PM (#34208582)
People don't author papers on mobile yet do they? I mean, an android tablet with a mouse and keyboard should be fine for that given webapps, but I just don't know people who have that workflow. And itbis a biased sampling because of internet pricing, but on planes as I look around I mostly see windows or mac laptops for actual work. A few adults will have tablets, but mostly kids. Adults mostly have a phone reading a book or watching a movie.

At work it seems like developers don't care what the machine they are sitting at is as long as it has ssh and vscode with remote plugin and of course a browser.

Some domain specific tools don't work so well remotely and those people have whatever that software requires, sometimes as a VM but often on metal with a beefy workstation.

For generic office productivity I still see people using Microsoft.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by semi-extrinsic on Sunday January 01, 2023 @02:45PM (#34210043)
Overleaf works well for writing papers on any tablet, hell it's even usable in a pinch on my phone.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by morjom on Monday January 02, 2023 @09:45AM (#34218376)
I think people author papers on MacBooks at this point more than Windows, but I think my anti-apple bias is doing a number on this one.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by cykros on Sunday January 01, 2023 @01:36PM (#34209213)
Given how many kids are and have been on ChromeOS since 2020, I wouldn't be surprised to see this changing fairly rapidly, moreso than I'd have otherwise expected. More and more it seems the choice for people is between a Macbook or a Chromebook -- the windows PC is just an expensive gaming device in the realm of personal machines.

Windows still rules the office, for now, but it's not gaining ground, and offices tend to move slowly, but steadily.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by pjmlp on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:43PM (#34210644)
A very US specific view, ChromeOS hardly matters outside US school system and most countries outside tier 1 only get Macs to target Apple's mobile platforms.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by antihero on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:32AM (#34207710)
I guess a lot of people now purely use phones and only use desktops for work, so perhaps it will never happen.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by qroolen on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:49AM (#34207931)
maybe it will happen, but maybe it will take 'a long time' until we pair/adapt commercial applications into the Linux/GNU ecosystem... as from a business perspective i really can not understand why you would not migrate to a free to use, as well to modify, OS... as long it have what you need
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by LeFantome on Sunday January 01, 2023 @02:40PM (#34209975)
I use many, many commercial applications that run on Linux everyday. In a testament to how “the desktop” has evolved though, most of these applications are hosted in the cloud and I access them through a web browser.

I create applications at work that run on Linux as well though most of those are bought as appliances. Some customers care that they run Linux but most don’t.

In fact, the environment I personally use to create applications is itself a commercial application running on Linux—-JetBrains Rider. I can answer for it at least why I do not use free alternatives and that is that I have more fun and get more done using Rider ( though truthfully I use the free ones too ).

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by antihero on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @04:06AM (#34229443)
I mean it's already the day of linux on mobile! Quite literally winning in market share :)
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by goodpoint on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:15AM (#34207526)
> people who wouldn't list "computers" among their personal interests were noticeably using it on their desktops

I know a number of "normies" with no interest in computing that use Ubuntu because they trust it more than Microsoft. (Rightfully so)

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by danieldk on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:20AM (#34207590)
Such anecdotal evidence is cherry picked and completely useless. Ask a random person on the street. If they still even have a laptop or desktop, 80-90 percent will run Windows and macOS as a distant second. In some domains (e.g. education) you'll find some Chromebooks, they run Linux, but it's largely irrelevant, because for most users it's just proprietary Chrome (and if they didn't have a ChromeBook, they'd be running Chrome on Windows).
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by mistrial9 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:30AM (#34207680)
without context, spoken language group and some simple demographics, these "percent" declarations are worse than completely useless.. they mislead
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by goodpoint on Monday January 02, 2023 @05:23AM (#34216347)
> Such anecdotal evidence is cherry picked

Citation needed. Desperately.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by LeFantome on Sunday January 01, 2023 @02:44PM (#34210029)
I am wondering what is the cross-section between “no interest in computing” and sufficient knowledge of Microsoft to have an actionable opinion. I am not sure this group is what “normie” is meant to refer to in this thread.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by weakfortress on Sunday January 01, 2023 @11:50AM (#34207941)
A half functional mainstream Linux distribution is infinitely more stable than Windows 10 and 11. They don't even pump ads into your start menu! There's no telemetry!

I've been using Linux forever in one form or another. It was tough in the Windows XP days (which is the most superior Windows distro to this day), but after Windows 7 released Linux came into it's own. I've had no problems running it on all sorts of hardware and gaming on it has gotten better since proton.

People are just set in their ways. Mac-people will mock Linux because they're the kind of people that will pay $1500 over marginal cost for a few extra pixels and some more color depth. Windows people will mock Linux because...it's not Windows. M1 is not cool enough to justify the cost. Once Windows started calling home every time I click something on my desktop it became too much for me to bear.

The reason is as you stated. When grandma goes to buy a budget PC it comes loaded with Windows crap. Their market penetration is deep and their budget is nearly endless. Based on my experience with Windows 11 demos I think Windows 11 will finally push people to look elsewhere. Either Macs, or a out-of-the-box Linux system. Until Linux natively supports Excel, however, I don't think it'll ever reach widespread corporate adoption. Windows and OS X are both moron-friendly as you can tell by their userbase. That's important when you're trying to sell something. It'll always be "people who know" vs. "people who think they know".

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by criddell on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:19PM (#34208299)
If I were you, I would just ignore the people who mock those who choose another platform. They're zealots or idiots and any attempt at conversation with them is a waste of time.

The truth is, in the wider world, nobody cares about their operating system. They are all good enough and have been for a while. What matters is the same thing that has always mattered - applications.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by decremental on Sunday January 01, 2023 @01:02PM (#34208828)
Mac vs Linux vs Windows feels like something from a bygone era. I don't think people are so zealous anymore. I've used all three as my primary OS at one time or another and currently use Mac and Windows. They're all better at some things than others. None could fully replace the others.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by 0thgen on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:05PM (#34208124)
I wouldnt say "never", but it certainly isn't now

but the community is allowed to be excited in growth, albeit small, right?

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by mjochim on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:17PM (#34208272)
> Does anybody say this?

I have certainly heard it said that Linux as a desktop operating system is an utter mess or completely unusable.

> You ask a normie "what's your opinion of Windows 10?" and they'll have one, good or bad.

The "normies" I know do not have an opinion on Windows 10. Many do not even distinguish between Windows and Word. They have a computer, they know how to get some of their shit done with it. But they don't have a concept of "operating system", let alone an opinion on any one of them.

Some have an opinion on Android vs iPhone, but more often than not it's the quality of the camera they point to, rather than any feature of the operating system.

That said, I agree with your Interpretation of what "the year of Linux on the desktop" means and the fact that it hasn't happened.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by cokeandpepsi on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:20PM (#34208318)
I think people just overthink it, I've been using linux for so long that it's just what computers are to me at this point

I don't care if anyone else does or dosen't use it

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by krylon on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:36PM (#34210586)
Agreed. Hardware support has gotten good enough that it "just works" for me 99% of the time, I can watch pretty much any video format, play a lot of video games when I care to, the application I need are there.

Different people have different needs, for mine, Linux has made a better desktop than Windows or macOS for many years now.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by littlestymaar on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:30PM (#34208466)
> You ask a normie "what's your opinion of Windows 10?" and they'll have one, good or bad. You ask a normie what their opinion of Linux is and most of them won't even know the word, let alone have one.

True “normies”, my mom for instance or most of my wife's colleagues, have no idea on which version of Windows their computer is running, let alone have an opinion on the specific version they are using. They don't even know what an operating system is.

People who do know about the different versions of Windows aren't “normies”, they are people who are somewhat tech savy but not nerd enough to try Linux (which most of them have heard about somehow, often from their nerd friend) because it sounds scary and time consuming (installing an entire operating system, wiping your entire Windows including the drivers that comes pre-installed is rightfully scary for most people).

“Linux on the desktop” for the masses cannot exist until it ships with the computer you buy without knowing it. Like Chromebooks for instance.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by gigatexal on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:39PM (#34208563)
My main workstation is a fedora 36 install. I record videos on OBS for my YouTube channel, I edit those same videos using non-linear video editor. I game via steam and do all my work on it with no issues whatsoever. Oh and i3 changed my life. Tiling done right is amazing. And no vendor lock-in no BS corporate nonsense other than what comes from Redhat
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by pessimizer on Sunday January 01, 2023 @12:49PM (#34208671)
> You ask a normie "what's your opinion of Windows 10?" and they'll have one, good or bad. You ask a normie what their opinion of Linux is and most of them won't even know the word, let alone have one. That's why it isn't and may never be "the year of Linux on the desktop."

The fact that the vast majority of consumers don't have any awareness at all that Linux is a simple, widely-available desktop is evidence of the opposite: that the public hasn't decided against Linux, and that the sky is the limit for growth.

i.e. If electric cars had 2% of the market, and 90% of people hadn't even heard of electric cars, the first approximation of the potential market for electric cars as they are is 20%. You'd refine that based on comparing characteristics of the 10% who had heard of them to the 90% who hadn't, but 20% is good enough for a napkin.

With 1) the slow decline in quality and growth of data mining and ads in Windows and MacOS, 2) the ending of Moore's Law, meaning that the development of at least single-threaded software is slower than it used to be, allowing FOSS to catch up where it is behind, 3) greater compatibility and shared software than ever between Windows, MacOS, and Linux through various subsystems, VMs and containers, and 4) the movement of a lot of software to the web, I believe that desktop Linux could take over at any time (or never.)

Windows could just pull another Vista at the same time Apple disables some functionality as a business strategy. Or they could both get cancelled due to major personalities associated with the brands also being associated with politics and the media; Bill Gates obviously, but Jobs' widow owns the Atlantic. Both, neither, or anything else could happen while the Linux desktop was in really good shape and compatible with most of the software that people use.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by ShredKazoo on Sunday January 01, 2023 @01:12PM (#34208927)
>That still hasn't happened.

Chromebooks are at around 10-20% of laptop sales, running Android (based on Linux)

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by analog31 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:25PM (#34210487)
How much of that is school sales? Anecdotally, I don't know a single person who has bought a Chromebook for personal use.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by ShredKazoo on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:58PM (#34210791)
I think it is common to buy them for older relatives who need something simple and low-maintenance.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by jemmyw on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:15PM (#34210992)
My wife's laptop is a Chromebook. My kids also had a Chromebook but 2 died in quick succession and I got fed up with the fact that the ones available for sale in my country are only the really shit models and buying one from overseas means no support or returns. So I've bought them a MacBook instead - not my first choice but Apple sell locally and have reasonable (existent) support.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by analog31 on Sunday January 01, 2023 @05:12PM (#34211592)
I looked at Chromebooks, but when I added a few requirements (touch screen is a big deal for me), the price goes up above a cheap refurbished Windows laptop. Of course computer prices fluctuate, and the moment I think I know what I'm talking about, I'm wrong.
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by pjmlp on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:54PM (#34210763)
In US...
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by cykros on Sunday January 01, 2023 @01:32PM (#34209158)
Ask a normie what they run on their desktop these days. Then say, okay, fine, your laptop, as you understand they don't have a desktop and haven't for years. Then say, "oh, no laptop either?" to the 30% or so of average folks outside of the tech industry -- turns out, they're using Linux or a BSD on their primary device, that simply doesn't happen to be a desktop anymore.

The year of the linux desktop is the year when the only ones left using desktops are linux nerds. The only desktop in my house has run Slackware for years, because the wife and kid have never had a desktop.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by cykros on Sunday January 01, 2023 @01:55PM (#34209446)
The only people I know of that are using Windows 10 at this point are primarily gamers, as they're the only people who didn't let the automatic update to 11 happen. To be fair, aside from having Windows for work, they're also the only ones I know at this point who have a Windows computer at all.

The real battle these days is BSD vs Linux, aka iOS vs Android. Linux is winning globally, but the domestic kids are still huge on their Fischer Price phones.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by dcanelhas on Sunday January 01, 2023 @02:00PM (#34209491)
..and, by extension, maybe some game developers, too :)
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by pjmlp on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:54PM (#34210760)
iOS has hardly that much BSD into it, just as Android only shares the kernel with GNU/Linux
Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by filoleg on Sunday January 01, 2023 @10:55PM (#34214122)
> The only people I know of that are using Windows 10 at this point are primarily gamers, as they're the only people who didn't let the automatic update to 11 happen.

Are you claiming that W10 autoupgrades to W11, if you have automatic OS updates enabled? Doesn't seem right to me.

I have Windows 10 with automatic updates enabled, and it hasn't tried installing Windows 11 even once. There is an option for manually triggering the upgrade to W11 in update settings, but I haven't clicked it.

Re:Rant: Year of Linux on the Desktop (2022) by fxtentacle on Sunday January 01, 2023 @07:21PM (#34212718)
You ask a normie "what's your opinion of Windows 10?" and ...

... they'll tell you that they really like their now iPhone.

Most normal people don't know what Windows is. Maybe they'll find the sticker on their Laptop, but that's about it.

But what everyone knows from work is Word and Excel. And as long as they don't work well on a Linux desktop, Linux feels "broken" to them. Similarly, A LOT of people are stuck having to handle PSD and AI files. Good luck getting the Adobe suite running on Linux. But as long as all of their life's creative work is being held hostile in Adobe-proprietary file formats, they surely won't jump ship.