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Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by _448 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @07:36AM (#34172008)
I once met a very bright young lawyer from London, UK. She had worked on human trafficking cases in the UK. And she was so shocked with what was happening in the UK and the apathy of governments across the world that she decided to do a startup to tackle this problem. It requires a lot of money and connections to get a project of this nature off the ground. She was hoping to get into YC. Was rejected. After few months of trying to raise funds she gave up. She once said to me that there are actually online marketplaces, similar to how Amazon is for goods, to sell humans!
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by LatteLazy on Thursday December 29, 2022 @07:53AM (#34172125)
How was she planning to make money from solving this issue?
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by ceejayoz on Thursday December 29, 2022 @07:55AM (#34172143)
YC has a non-profit arm now.

https://www.ycombinator.com/nonprofits/

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by O__________O on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:03AM (#34172197)
Only 16 of the 3958 YC companies listed in its directory have the “nonprofit” tag:

https://www.ycombinator.com/companies?tags=Nonprofit

Given odds of an application getting YC funding are already in the low single digits, odds of a nonprofit getting funding are basically nonexistent.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by mtlmtlmtlmtl on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:55AM (#34172601)
This makes no sense.

Why would non-profit applicants be competing with for-profit ones? Surely they'll be separate pools.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by O__________O on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:22AM (#34173502)
Understand your point, though to my knowledge YC doesn’t release numbers related to counts of nonprofit applicants. Might easily be even more competitive than the for profit applicants since would only take 60 nonprofits per batch to be at least as competitive as the for profit applicant pool.

More importantly: Are there partners focused on nonprofits? Do the batches have enough nonprofits to cluster like nonprofits? Is there training that’s specific to nonprofits? Do they have a demo day specifically for nonprofits? Is there a nonprofit alumni network with 10,000+ members? Does YC have a significant brand within nonprofit funding community? How many significant nonprofits have been a part of YC? Etc.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by bitcharmer on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:00AM (#34172635)
No idea why you're getting down voted. I was genuinely baffled myself. How do you run a startup (a for profit business?) that fights modern day slavery?

What's the businesses model here?

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by O__________O on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:41AM (#34173713)
Number of aspects to nonprofit models. Funding wise, options include: donations, grants, loans, endowments, government contracts, for profit activities, for profit partnerships, government subsidized, etc.

Basically, much likely for profits, there patterns which provide insights into paths which are most likely to provide significant opportunities for growth.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by LatteLazy on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:11AM (#34172718)
Thanks, I did not realise that.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by m00dy on Thursday December 29, 2022 @07:56AM (#34172151)
She was going to write a scraper so, whenever a human listing is up, she and her special connections will get a notification.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by hgsgm on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:08AM (#34172232)
Why do you need Sam Altman for that? Do that long before you apply for funding.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by leereeves on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:38AM (#34172465)
Perhaps she isn't a programmer and wanted to hire someone to do it.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by _448 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:50AM (#34172556)
Yeah, she is a lawyer. And in addition to hiring engineers she would also require a group of lawyers and people(ex as well as current) from the government and law enforcement to get this working. This requires initial funding.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by monsieurbanana on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:44AM (#34172507)
Seeing how it's a different person that replied to you, I assume he was (poorly) trying to make a joke about how her business plan was to scalp human listings the same way people scalp PS5.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by chinathrow on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:04AM (#34172203)
That's actually a shame she got rejected from YC.

After war and hunger, human trafficking is one of the worst problems society still have to this day.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by hef19898 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:38AM (#34172464)
But it cannot be solved by sending helium balloons woth sulfut into the stratosphere, or by getting saudi money through softbank. So the idea is not the best match for VC funding.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by jacquesm on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:26AM (#34173570)
Investing in it might even alienate those investors to the point that they would no longer invest in other startups. Politics at every level.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by treeman79 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:53AM (#34172591)
Secure borders can stop a lot of it.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by greenyoda on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:15AM (#34172281)
There has also been slavery going on in the U.S. Here's a story about a NY couple who was convicted in 2008 of keeping two maids as slaves: https://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/27/slave.labor/
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by shanebellone on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:31AM (#34172403)
There are ~1m slaves in the United States.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by svorakang on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:41AM (#34172484)
A statement like this needs a trustworthy reference.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by giraffe_lady on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:48AM (#34172541)
No it doesn't, just because you find something hard to believe doesn't mean you can't check on it yourself. This isn't a journal peer review and citations are not required.

I don't even think this is what they were talking about but there are over one million prisoners in the US and prisoners can be forced to work without pay. The constitution doesn't consider that slavery but the rest of the world certainly can.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by shanebellone on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:58AM (#34172615)
I wasn't referring to prison labor although that is a valid discussion too. It's ironic that the "land of the free" only leads in incarcerated citizens, obesity, and diabetes per capita.

I also don't have a reference on hand. I listened to an NPR radio segment that blew my mind. There's a bunch of information from reputable sources but finding a specific number can be tricky. First of all, it's estimated because it's obviously unknown. Also, defining the "bounds" of slavery inherently changes the count. There is a fairly recent citation that states there are 400,000 enslaved people in the United States on any given day.

https://www.state.gov/what-is-modern-slavery/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_Unite...

https://www.cbp.gov/border-security/human-trafficking

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/19/us-modern-slav...

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by batch12 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:56AM (#34172606)
> The constitution doesn't consider that slavery but the rest of the world certainly can.

It does actually.

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by msluyter on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:41AM (#34173028)
Indeed. Thirteenth amendment, section 1.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by gabereiser on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:58AM (#34172619)
Most places skirt that by paying the inmates for the work. However, the pay determined was decided in 1896 at 27p/day. That's 27 cents. A day. It might have changed over the years but that's what it was in Virginia when my step-father was a judge.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/04/10/wages/

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by quickthrowman on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:30AM (#34173602)
> The constitution doesn't consider that slavery but the rest of the world certainly can.

Section 1 of the 13th Amendment explicitly refers to this as slavery:

“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_...

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by treeman79 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:51AM (#34172572)
Southern border is completely open. Trafficking is the norm.

Had a group try and grab my young adult daughter and pull her into a van.

These are real issues that many Americans completely ignore.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by iso1631 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:59AM (#34172623)
https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/country-stu...

"The Global Slavery Index 2018 estimates that on any given day in 2016 there were 403,000 people living in conditions of modern slavery in the United States, a prevalence of 1.3 victims of modern slavery for every thousand in the country."

I'm not entirely sure how they got to that number though.

It's also important to remember that slavery is explicitly allowed in the US constitution, and there are certainly valid interpretations of modern slavery that would count significant numbers of those currently incarcerated as being victims of modern slavery - for example https://harvardpolitics.com/involuntary-servitude-how-prison...

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by jki275 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:33AM (#34173631)
Slavery is not allowed in the US Constitution. The 13th Amendment specifically abolishes it.

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/13th-amendment

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by hjanssen on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:49AM (#34173819)
With a specific exception: "(...) except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted".

So it does still exist - but America only considers criminals for it. From what I've gathered, though, that is still a lot of people.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by iso1631 on Friday December 30, 2022 @03:40PM (#34189832)
Your link specifically allows it
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by iamthirsty on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:45AM (#34173760)
So there are 403,000 living in the conditions of slaver, with a ratio of 1.3 per 1,000.

That is not > 1m as previously stated.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by shanebellone on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:09AM (#34174052)
Again, it depends on how you define enslaved.

Whether that number is 1m, 500k, or 100k... who gives a fuck. It's 2022 and hundreds of thousands of people are living through modern slavery.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by astura on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:22AM (#34172337)
Gives me a 404.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by lotsofpulp on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:29AM (#34172386)
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by nkurz on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:29AM (#34172391)
Surprisingly, the link requires a final '/'. Usually this is optional, but not this time: https://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/27/slave.labor/
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by rubyfan on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:19AM (#34172781)
That’s because it’s an index.html file

https://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/27/slave.labor/index.html

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by nkurz on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:03AM (#34173987)
Yes. I say surprising, because traditionally web servers redirect from the bare name of a directory to the equivalent with a slash at the end. This then either redirects to the index.html or just serves it directly. In Apache, these are both handled by mod_dir: https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/mod_dir.html. They are using Varnish in front of the web server, and I don't know if they want this behavior or not.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by greenyoda on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:36AM (#34172447)
Sorry, fixed. (URL needed the '/' at the end.)
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by BuildTheRobots on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:30AM (#34172395)
archive.org only seems to have indexed it for one month in 2008: https://web.archive.org/web/20080712034359/http://www.cnn.co...

edit: nevermind, original link needed a trailing slash

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by leereeves on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:50AM (#34172557)
Of course making something illegal doesn't mean it will never happen again, and slavery and human trafficking still happen all over the world.

Nonetheless, there's naturally more outrage about places (like Saudi Arabia and Qatar) where it's still quasi-legal.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by notadev on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:00AM (#34172638)
I know a lot of people, especially Americans, just can’t help but take a crap on America every chance they get, but we’re talking about a 15 year old crime, for which the perpetrators were held accountable versus an active slave trade in Saudi Arabia. Human trafficking in all forms is abhorrent but these are not the same IMHO.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by codegeek on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:34AM (#34172936)
You will be surprised to learn that Human Trafficking is a global problem including in America and is lot more than 1 or 2 isolated incidents.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by jacquesm on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:09AM (#34172702)
You may want to read this:

https://theexodusroad.com/does-slavery-exist-in-america-toda...

I explicitly note that in my own country (NL) there are also many such cases, especially in the exploitation of women for the sex trade which is particularly lively here and a reason why plenty of women from Eastern countries are trafficked here, as well as the agricultural sector where people are grossly taken advantage of to labor under very bad circumstances often having to rent their bed for roughly what they make during a day of work.

It's despicable.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by wsc981 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:20AM (#34172796)
If you read the X-Dossiers (statements from victims and such in Dutroux case) you’ll find a lot of shocking things involving highly ranked people from Belgium, The Netherlands, etc...

https://ia801803.us.archive.org/14/items/dutroux-x-dossiers-...

Dutch speaking people can also watch this documentary regarding the X-Dossiers: https://www.bnnvara.nl/zembla/artikelen/de-x-dossiers-deel-i

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by dihydro on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:23AM (#34172829)
I'm glad that you brought up agricultural indentured servitude. I live in the midwest US, and I feel that the migrant workers that we hear so many bad things about are just picking the individually optimal outcome, and if we wanted to see fundamental change we need to punish the companies that exploit these workers for rock bottom wages.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by datavirtue on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:40AM (#34173010)
The only reason they are exploitable is because they don't have property rights. Why don't they have property rights?
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by greenyoda on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:16AM (#34172761)
I've heard of other recent cases of slavery, but unfortunately this was the only one I remembered enough details about to find a reference to. I'm guessing that for every case that's discovered and prosecuted, there are many others that are not (seems to be true of crimes in general).

And I certainly have no intention of crapping on America, which has provided me with many opportunities. But I think we should be aware that horrors like slavery can happen here too, not just in far-off countries.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by sangnoir on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:43AM (#34174511)
Why do you feel like a factual comment (AFAICT) was "taking a crap on America?"

The information is new to me, I assumed human trafficking in the US was exclusive for sexual exploitation/prostitution, not labor.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by hnhamdani on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:15AM (#34172282)
wonder if she could re-pitch that again to Ashton Kutcher non-profit arm.

Best case, she could get a backup from him.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by fakedang on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:17AM (#34172296)
I was going to type this, thanks.

Also, she should definitely build that scraper with some help independently, then pitch to YC.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by asdadsdad on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:32AM (#34172423)
I'd be interested too.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by moneywoes on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:27AM (#34172868)
likewise
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by bbbbb5 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:19AM (#34172315)
> there are actually online marketplaces, similar to how Amazon is for goods, to sell humans!

This should be easy to prove. Closest I can think of is some Telegram groups you might find in places like Syria, but that hardly warrants the Amazon comparison.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by AzzieElbab on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:31AM (#34172404)
Syria? What about cartels run groups in the US?
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by bbbbb5 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:58AM (#34172617)
Maybe? Never seen it, curious if you have links to share.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by ramraj07 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:43AM (#34172505)
You know the dark web exists right?
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by bbbbb5 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:55AM (#34172600)
Go on then, link this "dark web" website where they sell people.

What do you even mean by "dark web"? Stuff like this definitely doesn't exist on the onionland.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by xwdv on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:01AM (#34172646)
Do you really want to visit this site?

A good blog post would be a detailed tour of this site and going through the process of buying a slave and then interviewing them about their experience, afterward I guess you could let the slave go off and do whatever they wish or perhaps resell them to get your money back since you are unable to take care of them anyway.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by bbbbb5 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:12AM (#34172722)
>Do you really want to visit this site?

I'm fascinated because I track things like this for a living, but have never heard of anything similar to what was described here.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by asdadsdad on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:26AM (#34172853)
what kinds of things do you track?
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by washadjeffmad on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:50AM (#34173826)
Sorry, this brought to mind Ghislaine Maxwell's social media presence on Reddit.

To clarify, do you work on behalf of human traffickers to track and stop leaks about their marketplaces, or is it more to keep tabs on competitors?

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by xwdv on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:36AM (#34174420)
Look out for my blog post “I bought a Saudi Arabian slave on the dark net, here’s what I learned.”
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by newsclues on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:10AM (#34172711)
"site"?

Not sites?

One thing I know about the internet, is that there isn't just one of anything, even if it's illegal.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by michaelt on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:04AM (#34173285)
As a Brit, it seems useful to know whether it's literally true that people can buy slaves online in the UK, from amazon-style sites.

Modern slavery certainly happens - but I've never seen it on silkroad-style websites.

A post by someone online, who once talked to someone who said you could buy slaves online ain't exactly first-hand evidence - Perhaps someone was mistaken, or taken in by darknet scam artists.

[dead]
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by bbbbb5 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:35AM (#34174394)
Those sites are fake. Just like the sites selling weapons are fake. The sites selling credit card dumps with pins are fake. The sites selling hitman services are fake.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by Frost1x on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:07AM (#34172687)
Various aspects of slavery and human trafficking, for all intents and purposes, never entirely disappeared when you think about it. Society abstracted some of these things away in free markets through labor and monetary exchanges for labor.

Some of the very obvious differences between pure historic slavery and what we have now is that human rights are significantly better across the board and individuals have some degree of autonomy to decide what aspects of their self and time to sell and whom to vs previous time periods where those things were just taken from individuals.

So long as we're able to give labor that degree of autonomy (e.g. autonomy enabled by the ability to provide necessities for themselves and their family like basic food, housing, and so on) then I think we have a reasonable compromise. Vast wealth disparity (leading to monopolistic behavior on the employment side), lack of competing opportunities to sell your time/skills, and markets trending and stabilizing to states that are not labor-friendly undermine this.

This continuously peels away the abstractions we have to create autonomy for individuals and moves the needle back towards owning people like slaves, holding them on a leash indirectly through monetary mediums of exchange (i.e. currency) and so on. If I need money and food and shelter and the only real viable route to attain this reasonably is to sell myself or allow myself to be sold on abusive markets that may want more than say just my maid services (perhaps 'maids with benefits' situations, i.e. disguised prostitution) then that's what's ultimately going to happen.

We may claim the people have autonomy but we've just created complex systems around their autonomy that give the appearance of choice. People need viable and reasonable choices, not just a set of options where only one is reasonable for a stable and happy life unless we want to slowly erode back to systems like indentured servitude and beyond.

The article explicitly calls out Filipino maids as the highest selling and having been to the Philippines and now being part of Filipino family, I understand why. The country is very poor overall and the culture exports labor to import wealth due to the lack of local opportunity. Sure they can study anything and go anywhere in the world but it turns out, many go to certain middle eastern countries and pursue maid careers because it's their only real viable option. Some of the more lucky Filipinos study in school and are able to get degrees in healthcare or hotel services and work abroad in countries with better protections. Even then, they're held on a leash and abused through visa programs like in the US where they're paid a fraction of the rates their US native counterparts earn and lack mobility to transition positions readily to negotiate competitive wages, so they lose rights to employers and work in undesirable locations, under market rates, and often the under the worst sort of contract situations.

It's not like this story of maids in Saudi Arabia where conditions are even worse but it shows how we need to maintain autonomy for everyone. Aside from the being most humane thing to do, out of sheer self-interest, if you sell your labor for time in any fashion, these infringements on rights slowly peel away your rights as well. You may not see it in your lifetime but we should push for better labor rights across the globe to prevent stepping back to past atrocities we've seen in slavery systems.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by ericmay on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:19AM (#34172788)
Failure to create and enforce laws that prevent human trafficking fall squarely on government, and subsequently the people who choose cost as the main priority when purchasing a product or service and then vote for representatives that ensure cheap goods continue to flow.

Blaming “the market” is similar to not taking responsibility for climate change by demanding government action and changing your own habits.

Until we look in the mirror, there can be no change or progress.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by michaelt on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:20AM (#34173486)
Yes and no.

If modern slavery has slaves picking fruit in the UK or working in brothels in Germany or washing cars in France, that's absolutely something those governments could crack down on, I agree.

On the other hand, if some lithium is mined by slaves and, after going through a complex supply chain spread across a bunch of countries, some of it ends up in devices that make their way to the Spain, or lowers world lithium prices benefiting Spanish consumers indirectly - the fact the slavery happened outside of Spain's jurisdiction makes it far more difficult for Spain to to throw the slavers in jail.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by ericmay on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:54AM (#34173879)
If Spain doesn’t know that it is occurring there isn’t anything they can do. If Spain does know that it’s occurring they can ban products or fine/jail the manufacturer. As an example (and not one I largely agree with) if Nike is using child labor in a sweatshop to build shoes, Nike has a HQ in the US, the executives and corporate workers live in the US, and they import products to the US. Enough said there. That’s strictly a failure of the US government to regulate and enforce regulations. Nike may be morally apprehensive, but like a parent, you are responsible for your child.

On the other end if a country is engaging in slavery or various derivatives of it, it’s still the fault of that government for allowing slavery to take place. If it’s a failed state then we have an obligation to not trade with that state, or perhaps even engage in nation building activities in an extreme case.

There are always things we can do. We simply choose not to as a people and by extension as a government. Unfortunately human nature and cognitive dissonance play a leading role in this and they are very, very good actors on the stage.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by michaelt on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:42PM (#34175387)
> If Spain does know that it’s occurring they can ban products or fine/jail the manufacturer.

Spain has heard that some slavery is used by Subcontractor A at Mine B in Zimbabwe, which sells to Distributor C which also works with Mines D, E and F and sells bulk lithium on the international lithium markets where distributors G and H also sell, and where Battery Factory I buys some of their lithium but they also buy from J and K, and they manufacture cells under contract for battery brand L which sells them to home solar battery assembler M who also buy cells from brands N and O and actually only sell things ex-works in China, and Reseller P imports them into the EU.

Subcontractor A says the reports of slavery were wrong, that was actually perfectly legal prison labour. Mine B says actually they no longer work with Subcontractor A, and a local government inspector has certified them as slavery-free. Between C and O all the bulk materials get commingled, records occasionally get a bit mixed up, and precise sourcing details are commercially confidential. The battery reaches the shores of the EU with no known links to slavery.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by ericmay on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:04PM (#34175688)
> If Spain doesn’t know that it is occurring there isn’t anything they can do.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by chii on Sunday January 01, 2023 @01:29AM (#34204156)
> It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It

-- Upton Sinclair

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by Frost1x on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:18AM (#34174161)
>Failure to create and enforce laws that prevent human trafficking fall squarely on government, and subsequently the people who choose cost as the main priority when purchasing a product or service and then vote for representatives that ensure cheap goods continue to flow.

Producers have responsibility as well. Government should enforce such laws and consumers, in an idealistic sense, should be able to choose products and services that don't require slavery. Meanwhile, pretending that as a producer or supplier, I have no power or choice in the selection of labor is a farce at best. Every participant in a given market has some degree of responsibility.

The market itself is a system of policies, regulations, actions, and so on contributed to not solely by government or its constituents but also by private entities that have financial influence in policy making, often more than the people we're looking at in the mirror. Yes, as a consumer I have some responsibility and yes, governments have some responsibility as well, but so do other players like businesses and the very structure of the policies, regulations, and even incentives in a given market structure. Ignoring these is just passing blame along to others. It's critically important to realize that not everyone has the same weight of influence in a given market. I can look in the mirror all day but the influence in my choice of a my potential future EV purchase has miniscule sway relative to the opinions of someone like, say Elon Musk with a mountain of resources and influence.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by ericmay on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:34AM (#34174371)
This is the “my vote doesn’t count” syndrome. Nobody will do anything because they think someone else will save them or make the decision for them such that their lifestyle doesn’t have to change. The truth is that the people demand cheap goods based on slavery and human suffering. It’s what society actually wants.

I’m not saying businesses are absolved of responsibility, but if they are acting poorly it’s our responsibility to change that behavior. But how can we do that when we don’t actually want them to change?

Until the US government makes Nike stop using child labor to make sneakers, I’m not going to get mad at Nike either. Everyone is getting what they want except those who we treat poorly (oversimplification). Nike makes money, you get your new shoes every year for cheap, and the US government doesn’t have to do anything or risk have people voted out of office.

The more quickly we all come to understand this and stop trying to shift blame the more quickly we can actually solve problems. Until then we will keep buying our Nike shoes and complain about child labor and not actually do anything. If you don’t like these things like child labor, you can minimize what products you buy and where you buy them from. If you don’t like factory farming then yea suck it up like I do and pay more for eggs. Put your money where your morals are.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by revnode on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:37AM (#34172984)
That is a lot of text for what is a very simple concept. Being able to say "no".

> Even then, they're held on a leash and abused through visa programs like in the US where they're paid a fraction of the rates their US native counterparts earn

That is not abuse. They can leave anytime. And if you talk to them, they are grateful for the opportunity to work here for "a fraction of the rates their US native counterparts earn" and would resent people like you who would take that away from them.

What is outrageous about the story posted is that they can't leave anytime they want. Their passport is taken from them. That's wrong.

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by johnchristopher on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:43AM (#34173049)
> Various aspects of slavery and human trafficking, for all intents and purposes, never entirely disappeared when you think about it. Society abstracted some of these things away in free markets through labor and monetary exchanges for labor.

Anecdote time, slightly related ! Be me, in wealthy western Europe. Walking a Sunday trail, hundreds of people. Taking a break on the side of the trail, looking at a community garden and reading the plaque about which vegetables is being grown, by who: local public "help" centres (read: a public social support program, state-funded, it's a pillar of our society, to help people find jobs and get back on track). The plaque reads that when vegetables are ripe people are free to pick it up (just don't take everything). Was having a nice chat with a random lady up to that point, most likely a bit leftist, nice, then she drops that line "Well, it's free, it's fine, after all it's all being paid for with our money".

On the way back I kept thinking about that and came to the conclusion that slavery could easily come back in less than half a generation. And I am not talking about how work is structured or how our society regulates work and employment and how it's an abstraction. We are always half a generation away from losing our social advancements (English correct wording escapes me at the moment).

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by ensignavenger on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:36AM (#34173659)
I can't help but to think some meaning was lost in what you are intending to say. What is "it" that the woman was talking about? Is "it" picking the a ripe vegetable from the garden, like the sign says you can? Is "it" the government paying folks to plant and tend the garden for the benefit of the public?

Why is "it" (whatever "it" is) somehow related to slavery?

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by nathan_compton on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:05AM (#34173300)
I don't understand this anecdote. What was objectionable about what the woman said (if anything). I'm a leftist and I think its important to recognize that value does not come from nothing, but is the result, one way or another, of labor, which is all she seems to be acknowledging.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by newsclues on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:12AM (#34172727)
https://deliverfund.org

Some of the staff have been on podcasts to discuss... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoHHwRjPASc

Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by derangedHorse on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:26AM (#34172856)
I would be interested in a crowd-sourced approach where she hosts open-source tools she runs periodically to generate reports to give to the right people in government. I don't know how international matters should be handled but I imagine initiative can be taken to remove the problem in our own backyards.
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by TEP_Kim_Il_Sung on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:33AM (#34172922)
The "right people in government" are the ones doing it in the first place, alternately pictures exist of them doing naughty things, and a dead hooker can always be "found" in their trunk. Epsteinyay idn'tday illkay imselfhay .
Re:Maids trafficked and sold to wealthy Saudis on black market by fakedang on Sunday January 08, 2023 @12:45PM (#34301216)
Hey, I'm bored and I can try to build it. Any way I could get connected with this lawyer? My contact information is in my bio.