News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by kenneth on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:08PM (#34152434)
As a fun side thing, I am also a travel agent with access to some of these internal systems on the booking side. The technology is incredibly antiquated. Most of the US runs on a system called SABRE, which is basically a MS-DOS system with a text command line interface and its own language. It's all ASCII text based (and all in uppercase). It's straight out of the 80s. Travel agents need to buy special "errors" insurance to cover any losses caused by fucking it up (a typo could accidentally cancel a ticket and cause the client thousands in losses rebooking it).
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by thebradbain on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:37PM (#34152770)
They actually have a GUI interface over it now with the ability for power/legacy users to drop into the raw shell, if they wish. From feedback, many of the older agents actually prefer the command line, because it’s muscle memory and an experienced agent can perform routine tasks that would take multiple screens in the UI with one hand in the way we’re comfortable with our text editors.

Granted, the rollout across airlines is probably glacial

Source: I used to work there

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by yardie on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:30PM (#34154124)
I don’t blame them. Modern UX has a huge problem with something as simple as date pickers. Preferring you scroll through 90+ items when a simple textbox would suffice.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by TigeriusKirk on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:14PM (#34152529)
I remember using some version of SABRE through CompuServe back in the day. All command line stuff over a dial-up modem, but it was novel and cool to be able to book your own flights with it. It would be very annoying to still be stuck on that interface, though.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by tintor on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:14PM (#34152526)
What are the reasons preventing flight booking software modernization?
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by nikanj on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:34PM (#34152736)
30 years of cumulative complexity in the existing stack, with endless edge-cases and special exceptions
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by sjm-lbm on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @03:51PM (#34153625)
.. and, as we're learning, extremely high penalties if one of those edge cases happens to cause a cascading failure.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by cmehdy on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @03:59PM (#34153717)
The typical answer for old behemoths: it was built because it was necessary to build it, and it won't change until a change is necessary too. Wanting that change is not enough, it has to become an almost mechanical constraint, and usually the constraint gets noticed when it far outweighs the costs (and not just a little). Or is a noticeable threat to the system's existence.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by mastax on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:11PM (#34153867)
Big software projects inevitably become expensive boondoggles that get everyone fired so nobody wants to do them until they're absolutely necessary.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by thebradbain on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @05:41PM (#34154840)
GDS — there’s really only 3 centralized stores of real-time flight/hotel/booking information in the entire world (Sabre/SABRE, Amadeus, and Travelport). Almost every American airline uses Sabre (American Airlines is an interesting case in that it does not technically in a legal sense, but actually it spun off and sold Sabre in 2000, so a lot of their core systems are forks of each other)

Complexity — Fundamentally you’re looking at a logistics software, except unlike packages you’re dealing with people who aside from expected destinations have travel lengths and time-in-air calculated down to the minute. Also unlike a package, a surprise multi-day trip, unexpected multi-leg journey, one day delay is not something passengers (and crew members) will accept or be at all ok with. And if any one thing goes wrong there’s going to be cascading failures down the line— so much that it may break your company’s entire operating workflow (e.g. Southwest) entirely, and no software can overcome that kind of organizational gap.

Airlines - There’s not many commercial passenger airlines left in the US, especially that fly nationwide. Good luck trying to convince one of these giant behemoths to move to a non-battle-tested system for core operations, especially when decades-old industry software and practices around that software exist.

Also— Sabre’s software itself is actually reliable! As a corporation it is slow clunky and bureaucratic, but the actual functionality it provides is stable, battle-tested, can handle any travel edge case you can think of, and fast and efficient for those who know how to use it, while also good enough at day to day operations that it doesn’t take too much time to train new agents on how to use it for routine tasks.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by coldcode on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @05:58PM (#34155005)
SABRE is ancient technology, but very reliable and at the same time extremely inflexible. Last time I saw it upclose in the early 2000's much of the core was still coded in IBM assembler, although over the decades more pieces were slowly being modernized so I have no idea where it is now. Sabre is a horrifically un- imaginative company where projects are measured in years and not much every changes.

I think though Southwest's issues are more on their side.

Yeah building a new GDS today is an exercise in insanity, it's a huge complexity nightmare and switching probably impossible. I always wondered if AI could eventually improve things, but the existing GDSs are unlikely to care much to try. It's basically a (tri)monopoly you can never break.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by landemva on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @07:07PM (#34155703)
Great write-up. This applies to other industries such as dealerships with parts and service and various purchase plans. The software sucks for everyone except finance/accounting and that office is beside the Pres's office and therefore it won't change.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by supernova87a on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @08:15PM (#34156289)
Some brief answers / thoughts:

1) Replacing any software for an airline carries huge risk. They are barely operating ok with the software they have and holding it together with duct tape. Even something you might regard as ancillary, like a baggage handling software system, or flight catering software system, if it goes down, has the potential to disrupt thousands of planes and hundreds of thousands of passengers for days.

It is so significant an issue (to try to change some software, and just one out of many systems that have to talk to each other) that if an airline ever considers doing this, they may actually stop operations for some number of days while they do it rather than risk having operations go wrong. There are some rare examples of airlines doing this to try to change their systems.

2) Related to the above, airline management hates to be embarrassed by something that might work but has the potential to go badly wrong. So they are very conservative when it comes to replacing systems that are working, even if it's painful / much less functional than what they might achieve by a change.

Combine these factors (and many others) and it means that sometimes starting a new airline is simpler than trying to fix an old one...

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by wwweston on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @10:57AM (#34162243)
> sometimes starting a new airline is simpler than trying to fix an old one...

Now there's a truly total rewrite...

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by tintor on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @07:28PM (#34167934)
Can they gradually start moving flights to a new software?
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by rsync on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:05PM (#34156667)
"What are the reasons preventing flight booking software modernization?"

Let's ask the opposite question:

Why do you feel that software necessarily needs to be modernized ?

I'm not sure how well SABRE works but I do know how fast and efficient keystroking through a non-GUI interface can be and I don't know why expert mode interfaces should ever be replaced by unsophisticated mousey-mouse-mouse ones.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by KerrAvon on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @10:58PM (#34157376)
In context, it seems like modernization simply means that the software knows whether a flight was canceled and therefore can automate the status updates for the airplane crew. Nothing to do directly with UX.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by thebradbain on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @03:19AM (#34158797)
The existing flight booking software that they use (Sabre) can and does do that, but Southwest’s issue is likely their insistence on using a homegrown management system on top of that. Southwest only switched to Sabre in 2021, so it’s likely still being implemented, and their homegrown approach has likely evolved with them from their founding, so it’s not something the company itself is likely organizationally prepared for.

At least, I feel confident in that analysis, since this exact same issue happened to Southwest in 2016, before they were using Sabre. Which would point to a chronic organizational failure

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2016/07/2...

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by rippercushions on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @11:29PM (#34157551)
Sabre has a 10-year deal with GCP to do just that. It's going to take a lot more than 10 years to get the thing off System/360 running in a bunker under Omaha airport though.

https://www.sabre.com/insights/releases/sabre-forges-10-year...

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by nunez on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @12:03AM (#34157707)
airline margins are paper thin these days. they weren't back when booking engines and reservation systems were being built. (SABRE was built by and spun off from American Airlines. Galileo was built by United before they merged with Continental.) this plus the absolutely insane business logic that goes into booking engines has made the effort extremely risky.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by rippercushions on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @03:14PM (#34153193)
SABRE dates from 1960 and is by some reckonings the very first piece of commercial (non-military, non-academic) software in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre_(travel_reservation_syst...

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by fbdab103 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @11:30PM (#34157557)
That is a tremendously fun fact! The little background things that keep society running. May I never be cursed enough I would ever have to directly work with such a system.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by ShredKazoo on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @11:39PM (#34157603)
I wonder if it will ever go away.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by noisy_boy on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @12:40AM (#34157853)
Even if this incident is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back, the migration itself would be a multi-year project.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by rippercushions on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @01:52AM (#34158240)
I don't think SABRE has anything to do with Southwest's outage.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by xeromal on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @01:03AM (#34157966)
It'll probably never go away, but just be layered over like civilizations. Eventually our software is probably going to get so complicated that we just build new software to interact with old software to avoid ever fully shutting it down. Like building a fresh highway on the oregon trail
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by dredmorbius on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @11:57PM (#34157672)
And it's mainframe / COBOL, not DOS, which post-dates it by about a decade and a half.

It's not even an ASCII text app, but an EBCDIC one. Or was after EBCDIC was defined as a standard, after SABRE itself launched.