Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by voxic11 on Monday December 19, 2022 @09:35AM
(#34052486)
Lucky the Russians aren't fighting the US.
> In one chilling incident [the documents] detail how an Apache helicopter gunship gunned down two men in February 2007. The suspected insurgents had been trying to surrender but a lawyer back at base told the pilots: ‘You cannot surrender to an aircraft.'
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by ceejayoz on Monday December 19, 2022 @11:05AM
(#34053642)
Even if that's true legally, what a dumb decision tactically. Killing surrendering troops means fewer surrenders and results in more deaths for your side.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by c3534l on Monday December 19, 2022 @11:22AM
(#34053899)
Morally, you're also killing someone with no intent on harming you who isn't an immediate threat. Sure, its not quite straightforwardly wrong, but it sure isn't right.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by LinuxBender on Monday December 19, 2022 @09:24AM
(#34052351)
Dystopian. As if the enemy would hesitate to mow down their opponents when they surrender. I can only speak for myself but I would never surrender to a machine. Machines and the internet dehumanize people and they are less hesitant to do something awful.
Rather I would identify myself if the drone was not confident of who I was assuming it was one of mine. [1] If an enemy drone came within 20 miles of my team I would be displeased with my signal intelligence group had they not instantly put HIMARS on the drone command center coordinates.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by mrtksn on Monday December 19, 2022 @09:42AM
(#34052555)
These are not autonomous, they are more like an extension of someone who controls them. When you surrender like this, you surrender to the military personel who operates the drone and not the drone itself.
IMHO these drones are much less dehumanising than artillery or missiles. Most of the time those who fire the artillery or the rockets never get to see the people they are killing, they enter some numbers and and press a button. Even those who provide the numbers might not see much as the would use clues and remote sensing stuff.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by LinuxBender on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:01AM
(#34052836)
These are not autonomous, they are more like an extension of someone who controls them.
I understand your point but I disagree. Yes a human controls them and just like a remote human on the internet the people on the camera are just video game targets. There is no way to communicate with the drone operator. People do not hear each others voices and do not have a real human experience. The internet has proven beyond any shadow of doubt that people will destroy other people on the internet that they would otherwise be polite to in person. The drone operator has nothing to risk or lose other than the drone itself. The soldiers in the field have everything to lose.
If we are at the point where people are fighting drones, it is clearly time to escalate. I know this will be a wildly unpopular belief but it is time to get the soldiers out of the field all together and use longer range missiles or do unspeakable things that will truly shock the enemy into giving up or more realistically factoring in Russian history, just wipe out the enemy all together.
Russia understands this. In the past weeks they have loaded up over 7k nukes in their silos and subs. They have recently retrofitted all their massive bunkers.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by 082349872349872 on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:25AM
(#34053129)
I don't agree with your point of view, but it would actually make it easier to surrender to a drone: for various reasons it is impractical to offer the russian leadership an offramp at this time, but (if our[=UA] propaganda is to be believed) the morale of the suffering russian conscript is such that they would be relieved to take an offramp if properly presented.
To me the drone says "there is a large enough UA force close enough that your surrender can be processed with no danger of interference from your (former) command"; to you the drone continues "furthermore there is no dishonour in surrendering to the drone, because it is a significant escalation in the fight. You did your best, and must surrender now".
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by LinuxBender on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:29AM
(#34053185)
Does that make sense?
I totally get what everyone is saying, I just know it will not play out how people think it will. They might allow a handful of troops to surrender at first to condition them into thinking this is a thing. The problem is that Russia are past taking prisoners. The Russians have nothing more to learn from their enemy and have not even learned lessons from this war. Both sides are still using trench warfare. The Russians will just mow down the Ukrainians once enough of them start to surrender.
If people insist on using trenches, they will need to change the methodology to the tunnels used in the Vietnam war.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by credit_guy on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:24AM
(#34053118)
> I know this will be a wildly unpopular belief but it is time to get the soldiers out of the field all together.
Maybe it's unpopular with you, but what's wrong with just getting the soldiers out of the field all together, period? Nobody invited the Russian soldiers where they are.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by LinuxBender on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:32AM
(#34053229)
what's wrong with just getting the soldiers out of the field all together, period?
I like the idea but the way it's actually going down is awful. Russian soldiers that returned without permission are being brutally abused and made examples of. Youtube takes down the videos but you can find some of them on bitchute and 4chan.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by 082349872349872 on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:30AM
(#34053201)
Thanks to automation, camels, donkeys, horses, mules, oxen, and most dogs are spared being in fields they might have been deployed to in a lower-tech era. At some point, it will be as anachronistic to find a person in the field as it now is a horse.
(I kind of hope we solve the "reasonable amounts of peace" thing before that technical milestone is crossed.)
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by Aeolun on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:27AM
(#34053167)
I think you are a little bit too pessimistic. Of course you run a risk, but if a drone with a grenade is already hanging over your head, running the risk of surrendering might beat being blasted to pieces.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by LinuxBender on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:34AM
(#34053258)
This is why the actual training they need right now at this moment is to stop using the trenches. As soon as drones enter the picture, trench warfare is a losing battle. Both sides are still doing it and there are thousands of FPV videos of the drones dropping explosives on the soldiers that think they are hiding. They need to split up. They need real signal intelligence. They need to capture the drones and get the encryption keys off of them ASAP.
If people insist on using trenches, they will need to change the methodology to the tunnels used in the Vietnam war vs open trenches.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by LinuxBender on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @07:35PM
(#34088258)
As a follow-on to this, anyone commanding Ukrainian soldiers, do not teach them to surrender to drones. Change your strategy to adapt, improvise and overcome. This may include breaking up squads into more/smaller squads. Snipe the drones and change direction as your location is compromised. Get your commanders to acquire equipment from the U.S. to block unapproved RF communications. Until then, use tree lines when possible instead of trenches. Use earth covered angle foxholes under trees when possible.
For the people pushing to surrender to a drone, if there is any assumption that one side surrendering will end a war or reduce risk of nuclear escalation, they are sorely mistaken. Russia will be attacking no less than seven countries sequentially should Ukraine fall. They have no choice on this matter. The planning for this started in 1991 and started going into action in 2014. The Russians have been planning to re-secure their new borders ever since the 90's. By new borders I am referring to land that resides in their neighboring countries, the former Soviet states. Russia itself can not be practically secured. They will not give up.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by mcculley on Monday December 19, 2022 @11:10AM
(#34053717)
I am aware of people talking about these in sci-fi and patents. Has anyone demonstrated use of such a weapon? I personally would not create an electromagnetic pulse anywhere near my nervous system. I am not convinced practical such weapons exist.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by seri4l on Monday December 19, 2022 @11:02AM
(#34053610)
That repost is missing a critical piece of information from the original article [1]. The drone in question is an unarmed aerial vehicle sent to a meeting place when a Russian soldier calls the "I want to live" surrender hotline. It isn't a protocol to surrender to an armed drone.
Re:How to Surrender to a Drone
by goatcode on Monday December 19, 2022 @11:13AM
(#34053758)
>After that the drone will move up and down a few meters, before heading off at walking pace in the direction of the nearest representatives of Ukraine’s army, it says.
>The video also warns that the drone’s battery may run low, in which case it will head back to base and the soldiers should stay put and await a fresh one.
So follow it, unless it's heading to a base. Is it clear when its battery is low? Maybe it just goes faster.
> The 10W speaker is capable of playing sound at up to 100 dB. The 100 dB audio intensity has a range of 3.3'. General communication can vary from 66' to 131', but specific distances will vary based on ambient noise.
> The loudspeaker weighs only 3 oz yet is capable of a broadcast distance of up to 328.1' at 70 dB and a maximum volume of 110 dB up to 3.3' away. You can transmit audio in real time from your compatible controller, such as the RC Pro Enterprise (not included), or you can save and playback several audio recordings. You can play your clip once or have it automatically loop.
> In one chilling incident [the documents] detail how an Apache helicopter gunship gunned down two men in February 2007. The suspected insurgents had been trying to surrender but a lawyer back at base told the pilots: ‘You cannot surrender to an aircraft.'
https://fpif.org/wikileaks_you_cannot_surrender_to_an_aircra...
Rather I would identify myself if the drone was not confident of who I was assuming it was one of mine. [1] If an enemy drone came within 20 miles of my team I would be displeased with my signal intelligence group had they not instantly put HIMARS on the drone command center coordinates.
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX4d4CvdZLA
IMHO these drones are much less dehumanising than artillery or missiles. Most of the time those who fire the artillery or the rockets never get to see the people they are killing, they enter some numbers and and press a button. Even those who provide the numbers might not see much as the would use clues and remote sensing stuff.
I understand your point but I disagree. Yes a human controls them and just like a remote human on the internet the people on the camera are just video game targets. There is no way to communicate with the drone operator. People do not hear each others voices and do not have a real human experience. The internet has proven beyond any shadow of doubt that people will destroy other people on the internet that they would otherwise be polite to in person. The drone operator has nothing to risk or lose other than the drone itself. The soldiers in the field have everything to lose.
If we are at the point where people are fighting drones, it is clearly time to escalate. I know this will be a wildly unpopular belief but it is time to get the soldiers out of the field all together and use longer range missiles or do unspeakable things that will truly shock the enemy into giving up or more realistically factoring in Russian history, just wipe out the enemy all together.
Russia understands this. In the past weeks they have loaded up over 7k nukes in their silos and subs. They have recently retrofitted all their massive bunkers.
To me the drone says "there is a large enough UA force close enough that your surrender can be processed with no danger of interference from your (former) command"; to you the drone continues "furthermore there is no dishonour in surrendering to the drone, because it is a significant escalation in the fight. You did your best, and must surrender now".
Does that make sense?
I totally get what everyone is saying, I just know it will not play out how people think it will. They might allow a handful of troops to surrender at first to condition them into thinking this is a thing. The problem is that Russia are past taking prisoners. The Russians have nothing more to learn from their enemy and have not even learned lessons from this war. Both sides are still using trench warfare. The Russians will just mow down the Ukrainians once enough of them start to surrender.
If people insist on using trenches, they will need to change the methodology to the tunnels used in the Vietnam war.
Maybe it's unpopular with you, but what's wrong with just getting the soldiers out of the field all together, period? Nobody invited the Russian soldiers where they are.
I like the idea but the way it's actually going down is awful. Russian soldiers that returned without permission are being brutally abused and made examples of. Youtube takes down the videos but you can find some of them on bitchute and 4chan.
(I kind of hope we solve the "reasonable amounts of peace" thing before that technical milestone is crossed.)
If people insist on using trenches, they will need to change the methodology to the tunnels used in the Vietnam war vs open trenches.
Shoot the fucking thing.
For the people pushing to surrender to a drone, if there is any assumption that one side surrendering will end a war or reduce risk of nuclear escalation, they are sorely mistaken. Russia will be attacking no less than seven countries sequentially should Ukraine fall. They have no choice on this matter. The planning for this started in 1991 and started going into action in 2014. The Russians have been planning to re-secure their new borders ever since the 90's. By new borders I am referring to land that resides in their neighboring countries, the former Soviet states. Russia itself can not be practically secured. They will not give up.
Of course, that was a world first so not an organized or expected occurrence like Ukraine.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-army-video-tells-rus...
Genius.
>The video also warns that the drone’s battery may run low, in which case it will head back to base and the soldiers should stay put and await a fresh one.
So follow it, unless it's heading to a base. Is it clear when its battery is low? Maybe it just goes faster.
Mavic 2 US$99 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1443226-REG/dji_cp_en...
> The 10W speaker is capable of playing sound at up to 100 dB. The 100 dB audio intensity has a range of 3.3'. General communication can vary from 66' to 131', but specific distances will vary based on ambient noise.
Mavic 3 US$159 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1730102-REG/dji_cp_en...
> The loudspeaker weighs only 3 oz yet is capable of a broadcast distance of up to 328.1' at 70 dB and a maximum volume of 110 dB up to 3.3' away. You can transmit audio in real time from your compatible controller, such as the RC Pro Enterprise (not included), or you can save and playback several audio recordings. You can play your clip once or have it automatically loop.