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Re:GB National Grid Status by lifeisstillgood on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:13AM (#33922067)
Ok, I must have missed this but ... Wind produces 16% of UK electricity, and nuclear produces 13% ....

Ok wow.

I assumed solar would be the thing that takes over, and In Spain that's probably true. But here it seems wind is going to be a win.

Anyway I still need to work out how to spend my declining years - how to write software for renewable energy farms ... wind or solar.

Re:GB National Grid Status by DrScientist on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:20AM (#33922184)
The UK is one of the best positioned countries in the world in terms of natural wind resource.

This is because large parts of the north sea are shallow/have banks that very large offshore wind farms can be built on.

No terrain to get in the way, no people to object about it being close to their house.

Scotland is also windy and not that populated and so has quite a few onshore farms.

Eg see.

https://orsted.com/en/media/newsroom/news/2022/08/2022083155....

Re:GB National Grid Status by pydry on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:30AM (#33922311)
>No people to object about it

I'm not sure whether this MP was in the pocket of gas, coal or nuclear interests or whatever but he successfully rounded up residents to NIMBY what would have been the biggest wind farm to date even though it would have barely have been visible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navitus_Bay_wind_farm

I was bitter before. Doubly so now electricity prices are through the roof.

Re:GB National Grid Status by DrScientist on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:38AM (#33923291)
Didn't know about that one.

I note that the successful argument was based on the imagined impact to the tourism industry, rather than the visual effect per se.

Re:GB National Grid Status by thomond on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:38AM (#33922431)
> Doubly so now electricity prices are through the roof.

Electricity prices would still be through the roof. The prices are all set on the international markets.

Re:GB National Grid Status by leg100 on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:29AM (#33923148)
> Electricity prices would still be through the roof. The prices are all set on the international markets.

Only to the extent that electricity can be imported and exported via international connectors, which are of course limited in their capacity.

Prices are not set internationally, but domestically. Energy is not a tangible, stored commodity like coal which is internationally priced.

If what you said was true then America's electricity would be priced the same as Europe's, whereas it is way cheaper.

Therefore building out additional electricity production in the UK could well lower prices, depending on matching of demand and supply, agreed prices in contracts, length of contracts, etc, and of course whether additional connectors are deployed.

Re:GB National Grid Status by 7952 on Friday December 09, 2022 @02:31PM (#33925535)
Gas prices are a big component of electricity prices at the moment and they are mostly imported.
Re:GB National Grid Status by makomk on Friday December 09, 2022 @04:53PM (#33926856)
There's actually a similar but much more widespread talking point about gas, claiming the price of that is set on the international market and therefore the UK producing more gas locally would not help reduce prices. That should come with the exact same caveats (only to the extent that it can be imported and exported, American prices are much cheaper for Europe's because of this, and that's likely a big reason why electricity prices are much lower there) but the mainstream media unfortunately ignores them.
Re:GB National Grid Status by 7952 on Saturday December 10, 2022 @04:53AM (#33931353)
There is also a caveat that any cost savings from locality may be wiped out by higher costs in other areas. It may well be cheaper to invest in the US or Middle East and import as LPG. Transport costs are only one factor. And it is not like domestic supply would have no transport costs either. Running pipelines through rural England to fracking sites is not exactly cheap.
Re:GB National Grid Status by substation13 on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:01AM (#33922761)
It depends who owns the energy production. If the government keeps a stake then they can use the additional profits to shield consumers from prices.
Re:GB National Grid Status by rr888 on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:41AM (#33923328)
Scotland has one of the biggest gas fields in Europe, why should it rely on ugly and unreliable Wind turbines? Esp Global Warming probably makes Scotland's climate more comfortable, and its proximity to Greenland means sea levels might even fall.
Re:GB National Grid Status by WhackyIdeas on Friday December 09, 2022 @12:15PM (#33923839)
I am Scottish and I would be proud if all our energy needs were met by non-polluting and abundant resources such as wind and tide.

Even if you didn’t believe in man-made global warming, surely the idea of cleaner Scottish air would be a bonus.

Re:GB National Grid Status by grey-area on Friday December 09, 2022 @01:42PM (#33924945)
They already are. Scotland has hit 100% renewable energy already on a few days.
Re:GB National Grid Status by recursion on Friday December 09, 2022 @05:34PM (#33927300)
Re:GB National Grid Status by grey-area on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:18AM (#33943871)
No, it’s not false, that article takes a deliberately obtuse definition and uses it to debunk something which wasn’t claimed.

Clearly due to the nature of grids and shared generation nobody can guarantee that all electrons used came from wind power (nor does anyone care!?!) but Scotland is an exporter of energy and at times its entire needs could be met from its renewable generation.

Not sure which part of Scotland producing lots of renewable energy you find difficult to cope with, but renewable production is here to stay, cheaper than other sources and a growing part of the mix.

Re:GB National Grid Status by nicoburns on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:56AM (#33923553)
Our economies are linked, so even from a selfish perspective, the effects of global warming will felt even in places where the weather doesn't directly cause problems. If the effects of climate change get bad, we are likely to see widespread war.
Re:GB National Grid Status by Oxidation on Friday December 09, 2022 @04:31PM (#33926665)
How are wind turbines uglier than gas platforms?
Re:GB National Grid Status by lifeisstillgood on Friday December 09, 2022 @01:29PM (#33924758)
Oh - Doggerland

About end of the Stone Age ~15,000BC you could still walk from UK to Europe - there is I believe evidence of civilisation and villages down there still.

Re:GB National Grid Status by michaelt on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:34AM (#33923232)
> I assumed solar would be the thing that takes over

Solar in the UK is highly seasonal. A ~4kW installation that generated 500kWh in June might only produce 50kWh in December [1] - whereas a ~4kW install in Spain might generate 700kWh in June and 200kWh in December [2]

So if you want power output in December, Solar in the UK isn't the best choice :)

[1] https://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=43099&sid=39381&v=0&t=... [2] https://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=91812&sid=81184&v=0&t=...

Re:GB National Grid Status by snickmy on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:21AM (#33922187)
In UK wind is actually broadcasted to take over. After the new line connecting with Norway (for hydro storage) the majority of investments are going into wind. On Nuclear, I think right now there is 1 big nuclear plan offline for maintenance so there might be some of that too.

In the Mediterranean area, while there is more prevalence of solar, it's not a clear winner either. For instance in Italy there is quite an aggressive law on usage of agricultural space for big solar farms. Solar will win in the decentralized, domestic space, an area that I'm highly interested in. At scale, Wind seems to offer a better ROI, especially on country on the coast line (or other favourable morphological characteristic)

I'm heavily looking to switch to work on the space (from more traditional consumer products), but it's a more full stack space: software is written as a byproduct of the hardware. unfortunately I haven't found any Electrical engineering interesting in doing something in the space. Shameless plug if there is someone out there interested.

Re:GB National Grid Status by stuaxo on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:36AM (#33923264)
The Tories said no to onshore wind, now solar is getting really cheap they are banning the building of solar on most farms (by reclassifying low quality land as higher quality land that must be used for food).

At the same time they are thinking about allowing wind on land again (probably because it will no longer be the cheaper option).

Given their links to fossil fuel interests it comes across as delaying tactics.

Re:GB National Grid Status by makomk on Friday December 09, 2022 @04:43PM (#33926759)
It's obvious why the Tories are thinking about allowing onshore wind again: a huge chunk of the mainstream media, including the BBC, have been pushing the idea that it's the superior option which the Tories are just ignoring because they're conspiring with fossil fuel companies to screw us. At this point it's probably not politically viable not to allow it even though it makes little sense. The BBC's been doing things like describing them as the "cheap, reliable" option every time they talk about the Torie sblocking onshore wind and omitting the fact that they're basically worse on both counts than the offshore wind the UK is building these days, repeating any claims the leader of the opposition makes on the topic verbatim and unchallenged, and even outright describing one of its big fundamental disadvantages as nonsense.
Re:GB National Grid Status by nicoburns on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:57AM (#33923580)
> The Tories said no to onshore wind

That's actually changed as of this week https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63880999

Re:GB National Grid Status by cjrp on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:28AM (#33922281)
I read/heard somewhere that if the Republic of Ireland built all of their potential offshore wind-farms, it could power the country and generate a surplus for export. Obviously need to solve the storage issue or rely on interconnects for when the wind isn't blowing/blows too hard.
Re:GB National Grid Status by mrspuratic on Friday December 09, 2022 @01:47PM (#33925014)
The east coast around Dublin (fortuitously, as the major population center) has good banks in relatively shallow waters ~10-20km offshore (Oriel, Kish, Bray, Codling, Arklow banks). There are only 7 offshore turbines in operation today (Arklow, 2003 25MW, planned expansion deferred), but hundreds more planned within the next 5 years. Less wind than the west or north coasts, which is seemingly less amenable, but there is at least one bank planned for Galway. https://gis.seai.ie/wind/
Re:GB National Grid Status by ricktdotorg on Friday December 09, 2022 @04:44PM (#33926772)
there is a twitter account @UK_WindEnergy[1] that posts the percentage of total power on the UK National Grid that is being generated by wind about once an hour, and then once a day a daily wind % totals. it doesn't happen very often, but i have seen upwards of 60%! very heartening.

[1]https://twitter.com/UK_WindEnergy

Re:GB National Grid Status by pjc50 on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:35AM (#33922387)
Wind is huge, while the last nuclear plant completed in the UK was in 1995. https://www.imeche.org/policy-and-press/from-our-perspective...

> how to write software for renewable energy farms ... wind or solar.

Basically this means working for Siemens. I don't think they have a huge number of software engineers, it's mostly MechE.

Re:GB National Grid Status by cameronh90 on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:44AM (#33922521)
That's actually below recent historical averages. Over the last year (https://grid.iamkate.com/) wind has been 28.5% of total energy generation.
Re:GB National Grid Status by pydry on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:22AM (#33922210)
Ideally you'd have a mix since they anticorrelate. If it's generally sunny when there's little wind and windy when cloudy why wouldnt you?

(this is one reason why the amount of storage required for an all solar/wind grid is usually vastly overestimated).

Re:GB National Grid Status by snickmy on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:25AM (#33922240)
I'm not sure the anticorrleation has ever been proved. While it seems logical, the cloudy / stormy weather that sometime we experience in UK is too harsh for wind farms
Re:GB National Grid Status by magnetic-recoil on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:29AM (#33922292)
Named storms often generate records for wind power generation. Even if a few turbines in the middle of the storm have to turn off, the rest of the country still gets lots more wind.

If you look at graphs of the wind and solar production in winter vs summer, the correlation is obvious. On a day-to-day basis, much less so, but on average low wind does tend to come along with higher sun.

Re:GB National Grid Status by DrScientist on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:39AM (#33922458)
It's complicated by the fact that the relationship between wind speed and power isn't linear - it's cubic - double wind speed - 8 times the power!

This only happens in the designed operating window ( too light you get nothing, too strong you need to shut down ).

So one question is what window have your tuned your farm for?

Air density matters as well - the denser the more power - ie the colder the more power.....

Re:GB National Grid Status by DrScientist on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:36AM (#33922406)
Isn't it the sun's energy that ultimately creates the wind - through differential heating?

So whether it's anti-correlated might a local feature depending on the local factors driving the weather?

Perhaps stronger correlation would be that air movement ( wind ) is the thing that drives the weather changing. ie no wind, means slow change ( though the opposite isn't necessarily true - if you are in the centre of a cyclic weather system which isn't moving you could have wind and not much change ).

Re:GB National Grid Status by cm2187 on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:01AM (#33922770)
There isn't much wind at the moment, you can see the history, we are in the lower range right now

https://gridwatch.co.uk/wind

Re:GB National Grid Status by jl6 on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:22AM (#33922206)
The UK is too northerly and has too little spare land for solar to dominate (it will of course still play a large role). Wind is where it’s at. The UK has a vast and windy offshore domain.
Re:GB National Grid Status by DrScientist on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:49AM (#33922594)
Agreed. But note that a lot of the local solar capacity doesn't actually show up on the grid production numbers.

ie if you have a solar panel on your roof and mostly use it to reduce the power you take from the grid, all you will see in the national numbers is lower demand, not increased production.

Re:GB National Grid Status by tialaramex on Friday December 09, 2022 @03:54PM (#33926358)
Loads of on-shore wind is likewise not metered. If you own a hill top farm, especially if you have industrial electricity loads (e.g. milking cows, lighting barns full of hens) it makes loads of sense to buy a modest turbine and install it on a suitable rise, it won't pay for itself over night but it's very competitive with other farm investments and not correlated. If electricity prices go up the turbine is better value, regardless of whether people are paying higher farm gate prices or your yields increased.

I think the estimate is that maybe as much as 5GW of UK wind nameplate capacity is unmetered, so it's a minority of wind power, but it's a big minority.

Re:GB National Grid Status by Panzer04 on Friday December 09, 2022 @04:01PM (#33926424)
That seems very large - I can’t imagine plain farm owners could reach that kind of wind capacity, are you sure that’s accurate?
Re:GB National Grid Status by tialaramex on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:58AM (#33931590)
No, I'm not sure it's accurate because it's guessed by looking at suppressed demand.

There's no central register of unmetered power generation, the assumption used is that if on a windy day mysteriously we're buying 25GW from the grid across the country, while on a similar but calm day it was 30GW that suggests 5GW of electricity is not being purchased when it's windy, implying 5GW of unmetered electricity supply from wind.

And there are presumably other embedded systems making up some of that 5GW estimate. Farms just seem obvious because 1) I've seen farms with wind turbines 2) They're industrial scale electricity users, often occupying terrain very suitable for a wind turbine

Re:GB National Grid Status by cjrp on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:51AM (#33922640)
Don't most domestic panels actually feed into the grid (so presumably would show up on the stats as solar generation)? Unless you've got a battery system at home.
Re:GB National Grid Status by jackbarclay on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:15AM (#33922961)
Domestic panels are what we call embedded generation - they are connected to the distribution networks, not the main transmission network. The System Operator (NGESO) doesn’t have real-time insight into the distribution networks themselves - they are just visible as a net demand on the system. Embedded generation serves to reduce this demand by feeding power locally to the distribution network.

We can forecast the embedded generation in real-time, but it’s only post event once the meter data has been accounted for that we know what actually happened.

Re:GB National Grid Status by cjrp on Friday December 09, 2022 @12:12PM (#33923782)
Interesting, thanks! Does that also mean power fed-in by domestic panels will only be used locally?
Re:GB National Grid Status by jvvw on Friday December 09, 2022 @12:02PM (#33923647)
Export tariffs are so low (around 4p per kWh) compared with import tariffs (more like 35p per kWh last time I looked) that if you got solar panels recently, after the feed in tariff was stopped, then getting a battery too made sense. I imagine most new installations include batteries. We only really export in the summer or if we are away - we use virtually all the electricity we generate most of the year.
Re:GB National Grid Status by bombcar on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:09AM (#33922878)
Depends on how it is setup and it varies in different areas, almost all are grid connected but many only "suck the excess power needed" from the grid when the panels can't produce enough, and only some of those "feed back" power when they produce too much.
Re:GB National Grid Status by DrScientist on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:03AM (#33922800)
They do - but as the rate you are paid for electricity is now a fraction of the price you are charged, most people without a battery try and align their energy use with production.

( The suns out! Put on the washing machine/dish washer etc ).

Re:GB National Grid Status by phas0ruk on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:51AM (#33923474)
Not if you locked in a feed in tariff from years ago. They lasted 15 years I think.
Re:GB National Grid Status by DrScientist on Friday December 09, 2022 @01:31PM (#33924782)
Sure - don't know what proportion of solar panel installations that is though - it was an early adopter incentive.

Bottom line - not all the local solar production is measured at the grid level - much of it results in demand reduction which can't be directly attributed.

I think this will only increase - either due to local batteries, or more electricity driven heating systems ( heat pumps for example ).

And this isn't just homes - if you have a farm and have a big water reservoir which you fill by pumping water - and you had some solar panels - you'd just run the pumps when it was sunny - there is no particular need to run them at particular times ( same if you had a wind driven pump ).

Re:GB National Grid Status by rpep on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:16AM (#33922975)
Predictive maintenance software for renewables assets is a fairly large area of growth.
Re:GB National Grid Status by OJFord on Friday December 09, 2022 @10:16AM (#33922126)
Well bare in mind that capacity's different from the current (as in now, not amperes.. but that too) generation on this Winter day.

(Not saying it does go the other way in capacity though, I don't know.)

Re:GB National Grid Status by IMSAI8080 on Friday December 09, 2022 @11:40AM (#33923323)
Yeah wind is going well these days. The annual average is around 30%. I've seen it at 60% on a good day.