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Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by ransom1538 on Sunday November 27, 2022 @10:06AM (#33763384)
I will avoid politics in this comment. But, is the current US/JP/SK plan to wait until NK gets a working ICBM with a nuclear warhead and hope he acts rationally?
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by ravenstine on Sunday November 27, 2022 @10:38AM (#33763607)
They've launched them in the last year. This is really nothing new.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEgE4R_6fLU

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by lucb1e on Sunday November 27, 2022 @07:41PM (#33768542)
Randomized link goes to an except of North Korea's "Korean Central TV" where NK announces their Hwasong-17 launch. It's in music video style, make of that what you will, and seems to contain a fraction of the information at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwasong-17>. It is not clear to me whether this was actually tested with a nuclear warhead, the video doesn't get more concrete than "[this is] a reliable nuclear war deterrence means" which could just mean it deters nuclear war, not that it's nuclear in itself. I don't know whether this supports the claim that it is "really" nothing new.
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by jasonwatkinspdx on Sunday November 27, 2022 @10:32AM (#33763554)
NK has a working ICBM with a nuclear warhead today. It's already done. The time to stop it was back in the 90s.
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by rich_sasha on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:53PM (#33765478)
Do we know they can make warheads small enough to fit on ICBMs? I always understood that is quite difficult.

AFAICT we know they have blown up stationary nukes and shot out inert ballistic missiles.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by bismuthcrystal on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:16PM (#33766380)
Lets speculate a little bit for argument sake. Take this with a grain of salt because I am not a specialist, just a information hoarder.

Lets put miniaturization aside and focus on another aspects, which i judge will be more critical.

The warhead must survive mechanical stress of launch and reentry, and thermal stress at reentry. The question is: can it be designed only with computers and public knowledge? They could build small hypersonic wind tunnel to collect data and simulate the rest.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by FpUser on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:31PM (#33766596)
They might ask Russia for help
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by rafael09ed on Sunday November 27, 2022 @10:08AM (#33763393)
That question implies that they couldn't land a nuke in Japan or South Korea currently. I think their current rockets have that capability.
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by germinalphrase on Sunday November 27, 2022 @10:16AM (#33763448)
They do - but that’s only part of the risk. The logistics around nuke delivery is more complicated (or course).

For the interested: “Arms Control Wonk” podcast and blog with Jeffery Lewis and Aaron Stein are good resources.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by mikeyouse on Sunday November 27, 2022 @10:25AM (#33763509)
They very likely already have that.. they’ve detonated >50kt nukes and have mobile ICBM launchers that have demonstrated rockets with thousands of miles of range.

They could almost certainly detonate a nuclear weapon in Korea or Japan. I’d put even odds on a strike on Guam, but probably not quite capable of hitting Western US.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by NikkiA on Sunday November 27, 2022 @10:34AM (#33763577)
They've put stuff in orbit before, so I'd wager they could hit the continental US, but probably without any accuracy beyond maybe picking a state.
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by kortilla on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:06PM (#33766956)
They haven’t gotten anything to orbit with the weight of an atomic bomb with the proper shielding to handle re-entry.
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by NikkiA on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:55PM (#33767405)
Kwangmyŏngsŏng-4 was apparently 200Kg, which is actually just about enough.
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by dontbenebby on Sunday November 27, 2022 @12:27PM (#33764679)
>they’ve detonated >50kt nukes

Are you sure? Didn't they also detonate a buncha TNT to make it look like a nuke blast once?

(A weird thing to lie about.)

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by hamandcheese on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:36PM (#33765301)
> A weird thing to lie about.

Having the world believe you have nukes is nearly as valuable as actually having them.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by cfraenkel on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:51PM (#33765443)
More valuable, in any rational sense of the term. Having them without anyone believing that you have them is more or less useless. Their only purpose is deterrence (unless you have a death wish for your population, and there are easier methods available if that's your 'use case')
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by IAmGraydon on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:45PM (#33767320)
I believe that’s his point.
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by dontbenebby on Tuesday November 29, 2022 @07:45PM (#33795442)
>Having the world believe you have nukes is nearly as valuable as actually having them.

Not if you don’t have even a single aircraft carrier dude.

You’ll just get a lot of innocent people hurt in a rightful and overwhelming second strike.

Edit: hit send early - my bad… this isn’t Reddit :-)

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by mikeyouse on Monday November 28, 2022 @09:07AM (#33773774)
Yes, there’s no doubt. They’ve tested multiple devices, several of them failed but the 2017 one didn’t. We know they bought the designs and materials from Pakistan, we’ve seen enough images of the process and equipment to know they were actively making progress, and we can measure the size of explosions via seismographs. We can measure the craters left behind via satellite images.

The wiki article has a good rundown of the evidence: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_North_Korean_nuclear_te...

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by dontbenebby on Monday November 28, 2022 @06:17PM (#33781283)
Wow they really put EVERYTHING on a wiki now. Thanks!
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by samus on Sunday November 27, 2022 @11:54AM (#33764340)
Even assuming it's not already too late for that: what could they do? NK is already sanctioned to the max. And the few leavers that they can still pull probably wouldn't be enough to stop them at this point. And them being so close to China and SK makes any direct military action against them likely to trigger WW3.
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by retrac on Sunday November 27, 2022 @02:02PM (#33765576)
If JP/SK/US did decide on military action against North Korea, I would expect China to stand back, close their border, and do nothing but make loud protest noises. They're not keen on sharing a border with a US client state. They're also not keen on a rogue North Korea with nukes.

The main issue is that, even without nuclear weapons, North Korea has enough conventional arms, including chemical weapons, to cause horrific damage to South Korea. Seoul's entire urban area is within artillery range of the DMZ. I've seen estimates of varying credibility but most experts speak of hundreds of thousands of deaths on the first day of shelling, if a full-scale war broke out on the Korean peninsula.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by FpUser on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:30PM (#33766584)
>"If JP/SK/US did decide on military action against North Korea"

NK is no longer part of NPT. Would not this war be illegal? How does it correspond with "we are the nation of laws"?

>"I would expect China to stand back"

And what if it does not?

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by retrac on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:43PM (#33766722)
I know quite well, as you probably do, that international law has zero bearing on the military decisions made by the USA in terms of its interests. Yes, it'd be illegal, unless the UN Security Council gave its blessing. Just like the second Gulf War was illegal. That has never stopped the US before.

> How does it correspond with "we are the nation of laws"?

It does not. The United States government rejects the idea it is restricted by international law on these matters.

As for South Korea, it can argue it's an internal domestic matter.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by FpUser on Sunday November 27, 2022 @05:49PM (#33767844)
>"That has never stopped the US before"

I know this much. My question was largely rhetorical.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by colechristensen on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:52PM (#33766806)
“Illegal war” is just a phrase to make political noise about military action you don’t like.

There are treaties, not laws, and no body to actually enforce laws, it’s just diplomacy. General practices are agreed upon but they’re basically just loose agreements.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by lucb1e on Sunday November 27, 2022 @07:30PM (#33768476)
NPT = Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (https://www.un.org/disarmament/wmd/nuclear/npt/) --your friendly neighborhood unusual acronym lookup robot
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by bmitc on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:58PM (#33766874)
I have been wondering: is North Korea an example of sanctions not working or having the opposite effect? By sanctioning North Korea to the moon and back, they have no other choice but to bottle up, tighten the hatches, take an authoritarian stance, deal with people willing to do deals under the table, and search for ways to strike back. Since they don't have the capability of building a traditional military force, they go for the biggest thing they can: nuclear missiles. Meanwhile, their people starve and suffer.

Are there not alternative policies that would work a little better? North Korea just seems like a cornered badger and will continue to act like one. If you "opened" up the country by reducing some sanctions, it seems they'd have to adapt to be more civilized. These are more questions than statements.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by avereveard on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:23PM (#33767132)
We tried detente and appeasement various times and at various stages, it usually doesn't work
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by bmitc on Sunday November 27, 2022 @05:23PM (#33767644)
What is the end game with North Korea though? It seems the only options are:

* It collapses on its own or there's an internal revolution or coup. This would be a mess though because of the whole China, Russia, South Korea claims probably.

* It does something drastic and attacks and then gets invaded. That also seems a mess because now it's China, Russia, South Korea, and the U.S. and maybe Japan, depending on who it attacks.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by avereveard on Monday November 28, 2022 @02:11AM (#33770582)
It's complicated because states diplomacy exists in a condition of pure anarchy, but "disarmament in exchange of security guarantees" is another option.

One might draw parallel with Ukraine, which is fair, but turns out it wasn't USA the untrustworthy party to the agreement, and they didn't get a defensive alliance out of it, which showed to be a necessity and raises the bar considerably

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by vkou on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:45PM (#33765378)
Acquiring and developing nuclear weapons seems to be the most rational thing North Korea has done in a very long time.

Neither the Iraq nor Ukraine conflicts would have happened if they were nuclear states.

An armed society is a polite society, or so I've been told many, many times.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by swagasaurus-rex on Sunday November 27, 2022 @02:01PM (#33765559)
Who helped North Korea acquire nuclear weapons? Was it a wise choice? Only time will tell.
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by tdeck on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:02PM (#33766207)
Just to add a little context to this comment, the world's foremost nuclear power (the USA) runs live-fire exercises every year where its army practices invading North Korea. Under these circumstances, it's entirely rational for the NK government to develop nuclear weapons.

If the US government really wanted to stop this, it could offer a good faith deal for disarmament involving some kind of reduction of sanctions or normalization of relations.

Instead US politicians prefer to hypocritically hand-wring about other countries' nuclear development while maintaining a massive nuclear arsenal to threaten every other country, and while invading or bombing other countries on a regular basis. These are the actions that cause states to feel threatened enough to pour enormous resources into nuclear weapons development.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by avereveard on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:27PM (#33767169)
Apparently only certain kind of states feel threatened. I wonder what the common thread is between them

Oh right, it's the dictatorial megalomaniacs that spew anti western rethoric as distraction for their masses, that who.

Truly evil, these USA are.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by tdeck on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:30PM (#33767196)
By this logic Saudi Arabia should feel threatened. But Saudi Arabia is a US client state so it doesn't need to worry.

Also, you completely ignored the part about the US practicing invading the country every year. Apparently that doesn't constitute a threat?

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by avereveard on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:45PM (#33767316)
Eh out of the schoolyard we're past "he whom hasn't fault may throw the first stone"

And I don't coun't that many bullshit wars. The second invasion of Iraq, maybe Afghanistan. Lybia was, but it was France's bullshit war.

Besides Usa has many allies and responsabilities, it's not that strange having them involved in many conflicts.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by yongjik on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:41PM (#33767282)
> live-fire exercises every year where its army practices invading North Korea

It's "practicing invading North Korea" in the same sense North Korea's missile tests are "practicing dropping nukes on America." It's a war practice, all options are on the table, with the hope that they won't be necessary.

South Korea and the US had canceled the yearly joint exercise in 2019, hoping for a better relation with North Korea. It didn't work out - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_missile_t...

The exercise resumed in 2022.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by tdeck on Sunday November 27, 2022 @05:25PM (#33767657)
> It's "practicing invading North Korea" in the same sense North Korea's missile tests are "practicing dropping nukes on America."

The context here is extremely important. All of this (the invasion exercises, the missile tests, the Korean War) have taken place in the Korean peninsula. None of it has threatened the US homeland in a meaningful way.

In addition, the exercises have been going on since 1997. That's a long time before any missile tests were conducted. If the DPRK (North Korea's name for its state) had been testing nukes from Cuba in 1997 I'd feel differently. But note that even dropping live bombs on other countries is something the US gets to do without starting a war because the US military is so powerful. Very few other countries operate that way and North Korea certainly isn't one of them.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by yongjik on Sunday November 27, 2022 @06:32PM (#33768118)
I don't know if you're aware of it, but your framing is uncomfortably close to the North Korean diplomatic position, where it pretends that it's a matter to be settled between NK and the US, and any other countries are bystanders. Conspicuously absent is yet another country that will be directly affected by any conflict. Where do you propose the South Korean military conduct its joint military exercise to defend itself from North Korea? Texas?

(Of course, the official North Korean propaganda is that South Korea doesn't matter, because it's merely a colony of Imperialist America, to be liberated by our brave northern brothers. How nice of them.)

> the exercises have been going on since 1997.

North Korea has been caught developing nuclear weapons as early as 1992, which led to it threatening to withdraw from NPT in 1993. It's a shitty situation with decades of history, and you could easily find plenty of things to blame on both sides. But interpreting it as the US threatening to invade NK is a pretty biased take.

Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by quickthrower2 on Sunday November 27, 2022 @09:48PM (#33769289)
This has to be the absolute best example of survivor bias!
Re:North Korean ICBM launch detected using GPS by chiph on Sunday November 27, 2022 @07:11PM (#33768344)
The problem is that NK has thousands of traditional artillery pieces stationed along the DMZ that are capable of hitting Seoul and other large population centers [0]. They also have short range ballistic missiles [1] which can reach much of South Korea.

So negotiating with them has been dicey. Especially since they have figured out that "If we do this thing the west doesn't like, we can go to the negotiating table and get them to send us food."

I do want to point out that the war never ended in 1953 - there was just an armistice signed, so technically North and South Korea are still belligerents.

So far as the DPRK leadership acting rationally - by their standards, they are. From talking with people who have visited there - the North Koreans have a world view that is substantially different from everyone else on the planet.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-1978_Koksan

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KN-25