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Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by epistasis on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @11:56PM (#33715391)
I'm surprised that this article doesn't even mention the ongoing, continual attacks on the civilian Ukrainian electrical grid, in a concerted effort to take it out with thousands of cruise missiles and loitering drones.

Perhaps not all countries will be as determined as the Ukrainians are in their constant repairs, but even with half of their generation capability destroyed, and so many substations targeted, the effects are much like rolling blackouts.

My son has Ukrainian language lessons with teachers both in Donetsk and Kyiv several times a week, and only a single lesson has been missed despite the constant destruction that is ongoing. I'm astounded both by the resilience of the grid and the resilience of Ukrainians. I hope that if such a situation ever happens to the US, we will prove to be as resourceful.

This piece also completely ignores the ongoing changes to our grid as it is being revolutionized by distributed energy resources and storage. Soon, islanding of homes, and the spread of more micro grids, means that a lot of the older reasoning in this article won't make much sense. Already, many critical infrastructure from hospitals to data centers plan for independence during outages. This will become increasingly common as the more electric vehicles allow for vehicle to home usage, as well as charging directly from home solar. This is what wealthy people do today, and costs are falling to make this accessible to all. There's even a chance that islanding might be cheaper than the alternatives for a significant chunk of homes in the future.

Already the grid costs us more than electricity generation, something like $0.08/kWh of the average electricity price of $0.13/kWh in the US. As generation from renewables gets cheaper, and storage gets cheaper, and the grid remains stubbornly expensive, more and more people will be looking to abandon it for energy independence on their own, or in smaller micro grids.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by radu_floricica on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:19AM (#33715525)
All good points. A small note: there's yet a many orders of magnitude difference between the whole power consumption, or even only residential power consumption, and the storage available in distributed sources. Even projecting ahead a few years and counting what's likely to be built. I'd guess between 3 and 5 zeroes, in most densely populated cities.

If anything, I think the bulk of the flexibility will come from the addition of new greener power sources, plus NOT shutting down the old ones but keeping them either at a minimum or suspended.

The eco legislation in Europe in the past years is the perfect example of how not to do things. They kept going with more stringent regulation after covid, lockdowns and massive financial aids, when the likelihood of an economic crisis was high.

In my country (Romania) in a moment of revolutionary enthusiasm, the local law passed to fulfill the wider european legislation had specific phrasing to permanently close existing power plants, with no option to ever reopen them. Talk about misreading the flow. And now we're a net importer of power, even as we're one of the most power-rich countries around.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by jes5199 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:44AM (#33715672)
The densely populated cities are going to be the hardest to transition - but in rural and suburban areas it may already be cheaper to generate and store your own power than to get it from the grid, most of the year
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by paganel on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:38AM (#33716290)
You need capital to be able to generate "your own power", the same goes for storing it. Most of the people from the rural parts of Eastern Europe don't have access to that capital and most probably will never have, for the simple reason that they are (relatively) quite poor.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by snowpid on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:06AM (#33716817)
I doubt it. I suspect they're thinking of bank loans, but resourceful fintech already have solutions for getting by without a loan. I see similar business models in Africa, so poverty is not an argument against it.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by Melting_Harps on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:58AM (#33720826)
> I doubt it. I suspect they're thinking of bank loans, but resourceful fintech already have solutions for getting by without a loan. I see similar business models in Africa, so poverty is not an argument against it.

UA24 is prime example, the crowdsoured funds have helped disburse funds collected in both fiat and bitcoin (after a massive influx from various crypto communities early on in the war) for on the ground purposes; Zelensky just got confirmation of the EU and US funds last night and spoke [0] of a website tat was launched for centers for citizens to go that will have access to heat and electricity throughout the country in pharmacies and grocery stores as the shelling continues by Russia and keeps causin blackouts (Russia struck again today causing blackouts all the way to Moldova) .

It's possible, and i really hope such a thing never happens anywhere else, but their is a reason why Bitcoin was the prefered way of getting funds into the country when the UA central bank put capital controls on the first day of invasion: BTC was there since the Maidan Revolution in 2013 and had been battle tested, so when the Russian invasion happened it was battle tested and it was deployed to start doing evac and other emergency services that continue to this day.

In short, despite the inept bleating from so many in these circles: Bitcoin (the network) isn't solely the affectation of techbros and grifters in Japan or the Bahamas, it was battle hardened in conflicts and environmental catastrophe.

I fear, however, that despite these microloans geopolitics plays a much bigger role in getting infrastructure put in places like Africa since China has been exercising it's soft=power colonialsm policy for decades in order to pay off despots and have access to rare-earths. It's just another example of how the technological side of things may have been resolved, bu things like kleptocracy and nepotism prevent it from having the impact that it can and should have at addressing an issue.

0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCGWEQIrieY

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by KptMarchewa on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:46AM (#33717101)
That's a misguided view. Giant amounts of money were pumped into rural parts, mostly under EU agricultural funds, cohesion policy and other similar programs.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by pmontra on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @03:01AM (#33716419)
If I have to start generating my power now, with no preparation and a failed grid, I think my only option is logging and burn wood. At least I can cook with that and heat a room.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by jes5199 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:11PM (#33721805)
maybe that’s true today but within five years I bet the economics will have pushed you and your neighbors to install at least some amount of solar and batteries
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by pmontra on Thursday November 24, 2022 @05:27PM (#33736964)
That was already planned for but I don't know if I could rely on the sun in winter when maybe it's cloudy for a couple of weeks, plus the shorter days.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by paganel on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:36AM (#33716281)
The issue with those was that they were indeed very ecologically dirty, especially the lignite mines from Gorj. You can actually see the devastation that they have brought on the ecosystem even from satellite images [1]. I agree though, if one takes a step back and looks at the whole thing (i.e. if you add the socio-economic conditions) this was a very bad decision.

I personally don't think renewables will be able to fill the gap for us. For one thing, transporting all the wind-generated power from the likes of Dobruja to Western Romania and Transylvania using existing power-transport infrastructure is no easy task. Second, I don't see solar taking over, for the simple reason that the fields from Southern Romania which it would best to use for such task are of greater use to agriculture (from an economics pov, that is).

On a more general note, we, Romanians, already have past history related to this, not a successful one at that. I'm talking of the period after the 1970s oil-shock crisis and of the '80s in their entirety, when the then government was very aware of the energy problem and was also very actively trying to tackle it and, in a way, solve it. That's why the discourse that we now hear from the West is in many ways familiar to us Romanians (only numbers with odd cars which should be allowed travel during weekends, energy "rationalization" etc), i.e. because we have been in that place before them (and failed).

There are several books from that period who explain the problem in detail and which also write about possible solutions. Most of them are from Editura Politica, such as Energy in a finite world [2], published in 1983, but one of the best, imo, is this one: "Energy, whereto?" [3], published in 1978, that has a very comprehensive list of almost all of the solutions that were available back then. It's very interesting that they also talk about shale gas, and about how it's not a recommended solution because it generates mini-earthquakes (they might have also mentioned the heavy water-use as a negative, I don't remember exactly).

Of course, when the mini-earthquakes did indeed happen in the early 2010s when we try to extract shale-gas in Eastern Romania the powers that be all acted surprised, like "what could all of this have happened?". It's not like there had been actual books written about the subject 30 years prior by people who most probably were still around in one way or another. Which would bring me to one of the most important problems we know have, i.e. the lack of specialists on the subject, but this post is already getting too long.

[1] https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8953743,23.1365373,18333m/da...

[2] https://www.targulcartii.ro/wolf-hafele/energia-intr-o-lume-...

[3] https://www.targulcartii.ro/i-popescu/energia-incotro-scrisu...

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by radu_floricica on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:50AM (#33716371)
We actually have a pretty awesome energy mix in Romania. It's a hard thing to rank, but we could be in the top 3. A lot of hydro, a fair amount of nuclear and we're expanding the nuclear, and a bit of hydro as well. Plus quite a bit of wind, and an almost-working program to encourage private individuals to install solar and sell back to the network.

Yes, as part of that mix we had some horribly dirty old school plants. I'm not contesting that they should be replaced per se - but the current thread is about flexibility, and the way it was done left no wiggle room whatsoever. And now we have absurdly high energy prices, Moldova is in danger of going dark, and we probably could be doing more to export power to Ukraine. All because some politicians guessed wrong, at a moment when it was already pretty clear this whole direction is dangerous. The local legislation happened, I think, only last year.

It's not a new story, politicians making bad decisions. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be called out when they do, especially when it's costing all of us. And speaking of, what they should really do now is unlock the solar power program - which on paper forces the utilities companies to buy back power, but in practice allows them to drag their feet indefinitely.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by AstralStorm on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @07:08PM (#33726191)
The coal power plant however gives you little flexibility for all the maintenance cost.

Can it burn wood? Nah. Biogas? Nope.

Do you have coal everywhere? As we found in Poland it's a scarce resource controlled mostly by a few parties and hard to store and transport in required bulk. I wonder how much of your coal is imported.

The proper replacement would be biofuels, if anything.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by pmontra on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:59AM (#33716409)
> transporting all the wind-generated power from the likes of Dobruja to Western Romania and Transylvania using existing power-transport infrastructure is no easy task

Do you mean, lack of capacity in the power lines to that regions?

> only cars with odd numbers which should be allowed travel during weekend

That was also the norm in Italy during the oil crisis. It was done more recently as an anti pollution measure too.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by paganel on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @03:57AM (#33716747)
> Do you mean, lack of capacity in the power lines to that regions?

Yes, more exactly reaching full capacity for the existing power/energy transport infrastructure. Which transport infrastructure is not bad per se, and that's another big plus for the government that used to rule until about 30 years ago, but most probably it wasn't built with this new energy source in mind.

I would have dug deeper for a source of the Romanian power transport network, but taking into consideration the existing geo-political conditions most probably that information is getting more and more sensible by the day, so I'll leave that sharing to someone else.

> That was also the norm in Italy during the oil crisis.

Yeah, I had a geography atlas published in 1982 who also had maps related to the major countries' economic infrastructure, so to speak, i.e. where most of their industries were located, where were they generating their power/energy, stuff like that. Being the kid that I was, with no internet access because the late '80s and no TV program to speak of, I of course devoured it, so that I can remember from those maps that Italy and France each of them had one tidal power unit installed, France somewhere around Bretagne or Normandy, Italy somewhere on the Tyrrhenian coast, near Grosseto (I might be slightly off with the Grosetto thing, though).

So, yeah, different countries were trying all sorts of unconventional stuff back then (in the late '70s - early 80s), but I do have the feeling that the cheap energy that I don't know how exactly (maybe Eastern Europe getting rid of its entire industry after 1990?) was available again starting with the 1990s made us forget almost all of that, on an institutional level.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by ammonammonammon on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:27AM (#33715569)
Sincere question so please don't overreact as if I'm trolling. Why is your son learning Ukrainian! I could make a couple guesses but the subject is understandably too sensitive I'd like to just inform myself as to something I may be missing! I detest ignorance, above all especially my own.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by epistasis on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:48AM (#33715693)
Long digression away from energy here: My wife is Ukrainian, and we have two бабусі (grandmas) living with us now due to rockets making their Ukrainian home uninhabitable. So Ukrainian is actually the dominant language in my house, though I only know a tiny bit, since I grew up in the US. The lessons are speech therapy, not merely learning the language as itself. But the therapy immediately transfers from Ukrainian to English. When he figured out pronouns in Ukrainian from the lessons, he immediately started using I/me/you correctly in English. His particular speech pathology allows for acquisition of many languages very quickly once he is taught the concepts (he's roughly equally strong in English, Ukrainian, and Russian now, and is quickly picking up the very small amount of Spanish I know).
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by captainkrtek on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:23AM (#33715878)
That’s fantastic that learning new languages works well for him as a form of speech therapy! Best wishes to your family as well during this time.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by Joeri on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:54AM (#33715727)
I have a friend whose mom lived in zaporozhya until 2 weeks ago, and the rolling blackouts were the reason she finally fled the city, despite months of explosions. The blackouts were getting more severe, and when you live on the 11th floor with no elevator, no water, no heating, no way to warm food, life is very difficult.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by FrontierPsych on Thursday November 24, 2022 @05:56PM (#33737157)
For sure it depends on the circumstances. Being on an 11th floor of an apartment building would be difficult. I wouldn't want to live there because although it is apparently still there, I'd be afraid it would be a massive target for artillary.

So in places like that, sure, you'd want to move out. And hopefully other Ukrainians are taking people like her into their own homes, because otherwise, what would one do if they have nowhere else to go?

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by throwaway742 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:01AM (#33715761)
I have a friend who works for a major power company in the US. They told me there are severe supply chain issues that are making it difficult to order new replacement parts for electrical infrastructure. As critical infrastructure they do have stockpiles of replacement parts, but they are limited. I wonder how long Ukraine can sustain these repairs.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by baq on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:35AM (#33716268)
This is a topic that’s come up before, pre war. One can hope some of those help packages will be used to bring up grid equipment factories.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by paganel on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:43AM (#33716326)
One of the major issues with the Ukraine power infrastructure is that it was set up back in the day by the, well, Soviets, which means most of the equipment dates from Soviet times, which also means most of the repairs/replacement work can only be done by factories located in the former USSR. Most of those factories are now located in present-day Russia, which is where the major problem comes from.

Speaking of this, I'm not sure how the three Baltic states handle this. Granted, they're way smaller compared to Ukraine and they had at least 20 years (since their NATO accession) to try and untangle themselves from all that, but until now I haven't seen any article written on this subject.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by Sakos on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @07:15AM (#33718219)
For an example I looked into Poland: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%C5%82chat%C3%B3w_Power_St...

Apparently to some degree they've been modernizing through the help of Western energy companies like Alstom. I have no idea how widespread this is though.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by vkou on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:06AM (#33715784)
> I'm surprised that this article doesn't even mention the ongoing, continual attacks on the civilian Ukrainian electrical grid, in a concerted effort to take it out with thousands of cruise missiles and loitering drones.

It doesn't have to, because the past 83 years has proven, over and over again that strategic bombing does not work. [1] And so far, this war is once again, proving that same point.

The purpose of those missile and drone attacks isn't to win the war by making the Ukrainian army unable to fight. The purpose is either terror, positive domestic Russian propaganda, or, most likely, it's just something keeping the Russian Aerospace Force generals busy.

[1] It doubly doesn't work when you aren't actually bombing the warmaking industrial capacity of your opponent (Which in this case is located in North America and Western Europe).

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by epistasis on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:21AM (#33715869)
Agreed on your points with regard to waging war.

But with regards to destroying an electrical grid, it would be a very topical intro to the idea. And there's some interesting info, in that destroying a grid is proving to be much harder than one might expect. Russia is a particularly incompetent foe, much like the Pakleds in Star Trek, but even with their massive armament, and being able to target an indefensible number of positions spread over an indefensible geographic area, they have not yet been fully successfully in their technical aims of grid destruction.

And to fail at the technical aim, while also accomplishing the exact opposite of your social aim (Ukrainians are more resolved, rather than demoralized), is utterly embarrassing and pathetic.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by hn_go_brrrrr on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:55AM (#33717167)
I'm now imagining Putin talking like the Pakled captain. It's a tremendously amusing mental image.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by snoopy_telex on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:28AM (#33715902)
> I'm surprised that this article doesn't even mention the ongoing, continual attacks on the civilian Ukrainian electrical grid, in a concerted effort to take it out with thousands of cruise missiles and loitering drones.

I would guess that it was an intentional decision to avoid. Grady goes to great lengths to prevent anything political in his videos, and the Ukrainian war happens to be politically charged in America currently.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by epistasis on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:35AM (#33715937)
The Russian war is actually one of the least political things in the US right now, there is great bi-partisan support, and it's hard to imagine anything else that garners such broad support from all but the most fringe of fringe (the left-right red-brown alliance against Ukraine is so tiny that it can barely be found).

But it is a very timely issue. Maybe in a couple years, after it's no longer timely, he will dive into it a bit more, such as with damn failures, when there's a lot more solid retrospective data to look at.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by snoopy_telex on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:19AM (#33716180)
My experience differs. The right leaning members of my family strongly support Russia and the left leaning strongly support Ukraine. It’s caused a lot of strife in my family. And I don’t think the right folks feel like they’re on the fringe. They do watch a lot of Fox, but they’re not Q folks, afaik at least.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by baq on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:31AM (#33716246)
I honestly can’t comprehend how it is possible to support Russia in the US after the Cold War and Putin. I literally have a blank space in my mind when thinking about that.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by vxNsr on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:36AM (#33716278)
I agree and my guess is this “support of russia” is really just opposition to sending billions to Ukraine. Some might argue that’s the same thing, but to many on the right it’s not.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by pmontra on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:51AM (#33716380)
Isn't at least a part of those billions going back to the USA as purchases of American weapons? They are subsidies to American workers.

Example from https://www.defensenews.com/congress/budget/2022/11/15/white...

> The $21.7 billion in Pentagon funding is “for equipment for Ukraine, replenishment of Department of Defense stocks and for continued military, intelligence and other defense support,” according to a summary table accompanying the supplemental request.

And anyway, if the USA wants to keep benefitting from their empire they have to pay the costs to maintain and expand it. No more money, the empire shrinks and other countries take what's American now.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by thaumasiotes on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @03:26AM (#33716542)
> No more money, the empire shrinks and other countries take what's American now.

What would that be?

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by pmontra on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:33AM (#33717015)
Future is hard to forecast but let me try.

The USA de facto surrenders to Russia in the Ukraine war and Europe starts to buy gas from Russia again (if the USA can't protect us we have to buy protection somewhere else). Russia use European money to start buying European politicians again. Eventually they'll politically control all of Europe. Maybe not the UK.

China gets East Asia because a retreating USA must be seen with suspect there too.

The USA maybe keeps the Americas, which however are not very happy with them even now (the countries that don't speak English.) Some countries will try to jump ship to Russia and China. More colonial wars to follow.

Overall effect: reduced reach for American companies, products and services. A small side effect: we won't be here to discuss this on HN but on a site of another country/language. Eventually: switch to a different worldwide common language (France experienced that demotion around the 60s/70s - French was the previous lingua franca) and further reduction of reach. Eventually: a poorer USA.

Seen from outside the USA this doesn't look MAGA to me. The opposite of it. Hard to assess the impact on inequality, healthcare, tuition, etc. Maybe the USA will go the way of the European Nordic countries or they'll implode. I won't get into that.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by thaumasiotes on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:45AM (#33717093)
Are political control of all of Europe and East Asia (a term that refers to 4-5 countries...) things the US has now?

Note that Wikipedia's statistics have China comprising just over 90% of the population of East Asia. In what possible world would China not be in control?

By analogy to the Manchus, you'd need an invasion from Japan or, I guess, Korea, that was supported by the PLA.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by t-3 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @08:58AM (#33719121)
https://ubique.americangeo.org/map-of-the-week/map-of-the-we...

Military bases and alliances aren't a perfect proxy for political influence, but they're a pretty good one.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by marmadukester39 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:06AM (#33719212)
Political control of Europe is not a thing the US has now, but a friendly climate, yes. The avoidance of leadership capture by Russian assets, more importantly, which keeps the climate more friendly.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by Sakos on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @07:09AM (#33718177)
It's so weird to me. I thought this was a part of MAGA. The world being dependent on the US military industrial complex is a core part of how the US was in any way considered to be great. You'd think it'd be a good thing to realize how good US weapons are and for the PR that is being created.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by epistasis on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:55AM (#33720779)
There are lots of dark money flows from Russia to these politicians, at least for any that I have bothered to check. Fortunately they are extremely fringe at the moment. But it is far far cheaper to buy these politicians than it is to build a fighter jet, far far cheaper to buy social media influence and campaigns than it is to buy cruise missiles.

Russia's propaganda machine was caught off guard because Putin grievously miscalculated in ability to take over Ukraine, and kept the invasion so secret that there was barely any propaganda. But the propaganda campaign is kicking up again, and you can see it in some of the ghost comments on HN, even.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by epistasis on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @11:42AM (#33721458)
I disagree on that, I think they fully support Russia and Putin, meaning at this point in time Russian imperialism, and the money is just an excuse that is palatable.l to the public. These same politicians will praise and push for increases military spending that is two orders of magnitude higher, for no definite strategic purpose. The only reason for them to complain about the money right now is because they are trying to support Russia without saying they are supporting Russia.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by irrational on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @03:14AM (#33716479)
How is it possible to fly a confederate flag after the civil war? How is it possible to be a nazi sympathizer after WWII?
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by hef19898 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:21AM (#33716922)
Aren't those people, in Germany without the Confederate Flag since the German Empires flag from WW1 is used instead, quite often the same people?
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by manicdee on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @06:58PM (#33726101)
There are plenty of folks who support “states rights” (to slavery) but don’t support fascism. They just don’t realise that they are fascist themselves (government by corporations, profit before people, find some minority group to blame for all your problems, etc)

There are also folks caught up in pro-fascist organisations simply because they want to express their general anger at the world for not living up to their expectations.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by ihatepython on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @05:32AM (#33717439)
Are you familiar with how Putin came to power, the situation with Yeltsin, and Gorbachev?

Also, everything the media tells you is a lie to get everyone on one side.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by vxNsr on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:34AM (#33716262)
Odd, I know lots of right folks and none support russia, they just don’t support sending more money to Ukraine, either bec they believe the accurate reports of widespread corruption (which Biden himself attested to 6 years ago) or bec they’re isolationist and don’t really believe our interventions have helped “spread freedom” anywhere. And would rather we dedicate our resources to bettering our own clearly failing country.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by KptMarchewa on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:42AM (#33717075)
The thing is you can easily check that the funds are spend property: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-docum...

Also, nation united against aggressive, genocidal war does great to improve cohesion and trust, and remove low level corruption.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by vxNsr on Sunday November 27, 2022 @11:15PM (#33769767)
A similar list could be compiled by Russia for destroyed/captured Ukrainian equipment. This doesn’t negate the fact that there is rampant corruption throughout the entire Russian military.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by account42 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:55AM (#33717168)
"And would rather we dedicate our resources to bettering our own clearly failing country."

So do that too.

"But that's socialism."

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by vxNsr on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:56PM (#33723764)
Here’s an idea: tax the rich and pay off our debt. Don’t tax ppl and spend the money right away. Maybe stop trying to do the same things that have been clearly failing for decades. Throwing money at random problems in hopes it will solve them hasn’t worked and probably never will.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by chillwaves on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:01PM (#33727388)
> And would rather we dedicate our resources to bettering our own clearly failing country.

The vast majority of our support is in the form of weapons, and the vast majority of those weapons come from existing inventory.

Even the new spending is just money cycling back to US weapons manufacturers.

What good would weapons do to solve our domestic issues?

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by Markoff on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:44AM (#33717085)
> The right leaning members of my family strongly support Russia and the left leaning strongly support Ukraine.

Yeah, I doubt anyone really supports Russia, it's more like you are projecting them NOT supporting Ukraine and wasting money in that blackhole of corruption as "supporting Russia".

"You are with us or against us" - there is nothing in between for Democrats/NPCs.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by concordDance on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @07:11AM (#33718194)
What in particular do they support? Russia invading Ukraine? Russia keeping Crimea? Russia conquering and annexing Ukraine?
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by mmcnl on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:27PM (#33722025)
All of the above? They feel Russia is a defender of conservative values and has been treated unfairly by NATO and was pressured into a proxy war with the West.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by mikewarot on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @08:24AM (#33718813)
The narrative is that it was persistent NATO expansion after the end of the cold war that "forced" Russia into this.

It's mostly a lie... but many Fox viewers believe it to be the whole truth.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by P5fRxh5kUvp2th on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:55AM (#33719851)
Are you sure about that?

I've seen discussions from a specific professor going back years (long before the actual invasion) talking about the dangers of exactly that. After it happened this specific person (forget his name) then started talking about how it was a consequence of the things he had been talking about for years.

You can disagree with the guy, but he's an academic who apparently has an expertise in that area, and I question whether or not you're dismissing it due to your own political bubble rather than because there may be some truth to it.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by epistasis on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:49AM (#33720664)
Absolute nonsense, Russia will invade what they call "little Russias" because they believe they are superior and that the people in those land belong to them, and that the resources belong to them. NATO has nothing to do with Russia's urge to invade and oppress other cultures, but NATO is a way for such countries to defend themselves. So if a professor claims to have expertise and not understand these basic facts that all former USSR states understand, then the professor is just repeating Russian propaganda.

For example, on national TV in Russia this week, they are laying the groundwork to invade Kazakhstan right now, claiming that they need the uranium for Rosatom and that the "same nazi process in Ukraine could happen in Kazakhstan," meaning that the President of Kazakhstan is refusing to be a puppet of Putin lately.

These dynamics are extremely clear to anyone who spends even a small amount of time talking to someone from Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Chechnya, etc. But those voices are almost never heard, and instead Russian propaganda gets the air time.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by P5fRxh5kUvp2th on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:08PM (#33722531)
You mean such as the academic who spent his entire career studying the politics of the area?
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by reducesuffering on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @05:41PM (#33725449)
You think there is one single academic studying Russian geopolitics?

Ok, I've seen an MD saying covid vaccines will give you AIDS. Must be true?

One person's opinion doesn't make the truth.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by P5fRxh5kUvp2th on Monday November 28, 2022 @08:06AM (#33773128)
^ link or it didn't happen.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by epistasis on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @07:55PM (#33726564)
That's an argument to authority, but there are many many more authorities that would disagree vehemently, and could back it up with specific statements. For example, Timothy Snyder, who is a historian specializing in the area, but really any sort of fair sampling would find that most Russian Studies professors would not be willing to uncritically repeat Kremlin propaganda like the "realist" school of international relations.

Plus, the idea that Russia had to invade a country to stop NATO expansion, if that's what's being asserted, is so farcical because countries want to join NATO to avoid getting invaded; it's a rather comical reversal. NATO expansion would stop really quickly if Russia would cease wanting to conquer neighboring countries; saying that Russia has legitimate security concerns just means that someone believes all these sovereign nations bordering Russia are not actually sovereign and should be part of Russia, which is again just repeating Russian imperialism as being right because it's right.

Plus, Putin has been pretty explicit in his writings on Ukraine, as he pretends to be a historian. Putin just wants to eliminate Ukraine as a nation and force Ukrainians to be subservient to Russians, it's all there out in the open in his writings. Denying this is kind of like trying to argue that Mein Kampf wasn't Hitler's real thoughts, and that Germany had to invade Poland and then the USSR simply for their own security concerns.

But if you can recall the name of this academic, it will be pretty quick to refute the specific claims made by other authorities in the area.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by P5fRxh5kUvp2th on Monday November 28, 2022 @08:05AM (#33773123)
yeah, no shit, I defer to someone who has spent their career studying the area.

That this even has to be defended says more about your mindset than any damnation of the person in question.

And as I've said already, I don't recall, nor do I think it's worth the time or the effort to figure it out, certainly not for you.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by selimthegrim on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @05:14PM (#33725198)
You are probably talking about John Mearsheimer.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by nec4b on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @01:28PM (#33722802)
Where I live the Russia supporters are usually the ones wearing T shirts with the sickle and hammer symbols or the Che Guevara images.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by dicriseg on Friday November 25, 2022 @10:48AM (#33743437)
If they strongly support Russia, I’ll suggest to you that they aren’t just right-leaning.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by EGreg on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @03:31AM (#33716578)
I find it interesting that the words "political" and "politicized" really means "partisan". It's quite political obviously.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by mmcnl on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @12:25PM (#33722003)
The tide is shifting. Anti US/globalist sentiments and conservatives are quickly emerging as one group.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by brnt on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:48AM (#33716363)
Perhaps worthy to note that the timing of the invasion coincided with an EU-Ukraine test of syncing up their power networks. A wholesale switch of Ukraine away from synchronisation with Russia and permanent synchronisation with the EU was planned later in 2022. Interrupting this switch, and the Ukrainian resilience against Russian manipulation through power was likely a reason to start the war when it started.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by Kbelicius on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:24AM (#33716941)
IIRC Ukraine synchronized with EU earlier because of the invasion, sometime in march I believe.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by brnt on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:33AM (#33717016)
I believe so too [1]. Of course, Russia and many others believed that by mid march, the war would be over and that the change would not have completed. I'm relieved that those initial expectations collided with Ukrainian resilience.

[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-european-power-grid-rus...

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by f137 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:53AM (#33716387)
Your Kyiv teacher is lucky. Blackouts vary a lot between regions and even within a single town. We have a distributed team and track blackouts in daytime, 8am-8pm. A couple of people had no blackouts so far whatsoever, a few had about 40 hours off out of 60 last workweek. The median is somewhere between 25-30. It is getting worse gradually.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by epistasis on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @10:38AM (#33720498)
Indeed, the class was cancelled this morning despite the valiant efforts of the teacher to find the combo of a connection plus electricity.

This will get worse as grid equipment spares run out too.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by hef19898 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:19AM (#33716908)
Despite real world examples constantly showing the opposite, from civil wars, famine, large scale disaster and all-out war, people still believe that somehow 3 weeks in the world turns into The Walking Dead or something. Not gonna happen, society in the 14th century survived the plague.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by t-3 on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @09:02AM (#33719160)
It's the effect of persistent long-term propaganda. No government ever will ever admit that society could survive without effective government.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by dncornholio on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @04:53AM (#33717154)
If Covid has learned me anything, it's that people are not resilient at all and love to give it blame for their own problems. It worried me how many people thinks Covid has had a permanent impact on their lives. It's negligible imo..
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by stareatgoats on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @05:01AM (#33717204)
> Soon, islanding of homes, and the spread of more micro grids, means that a lot of the older reasoning in this article won't make much sense

This. Not only is it not mentioned in the article, it seems to be largely absent from the minds of planners, as the development and implementation of micro grids is mostly ad hoc and haphazard. But the lessons learned from the war in Ukraine, as well as the increased likelihood of natural disasters (tornadoes, floods) should make the support of microgrids priority number one.

I assume the tardy adoption is because microgrids is still a fairly new technology, and not some nefarious plot by central governments to keep people dependent on their centralized systems. Right?

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by cudgy on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:45PM (#33723652)
Unfortunately, the massive influence of central grid profiteers make the obviously beneficial (especially in times of disaster and war) move to micro grids progress at the slowest possible pace.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by AstralStorm on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @07:02PM (#33726144)
The thing about microgrids is that maintenance falls onto the owner. You still require specialized knowledge and perhaps team of people who can handle it to maintain the microgrid and repair it.

You still require supply chains for the complicated parts that cannot be easily replaced, mostly batteries and inverters. In a shortage situation, central grids will be under pressure to be fixed immediately, but your single set of wind turbines or solar panels might not be.

So the way I see it, microgrids would be maintained by cities and communities instead. The level of distribution would make it similar in action to the times of old coal power plants, one per city.

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by kkfx on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @02:37PM (#33723572)
I suggest a far simpler technique in the modern society: just use a long list of crapware vulnerabilities.

Instead of expensive missiles just use cracked from the factory EVs, smart ovens, boiler, p.v. inverters, ... to simply create peaks loads (both demand and demand drop) and you have crushed the enemy "smart" grid without much effort, physical damage and still having it functional if you want to invade.

Oh, did you see the crappiness level of EVs crapware? The push toward more and more IoT?

Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by epistasis on Wednesday November 23, 2022 @07:59PM (#33726596)
Ukraine's electrical grid has been under severe cyber attack for years by Russia. I suspect their defenses have come pretty hardened, and Ukrainians are no slouch when it comes to software.
Re:How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse? by kkfx on Thursday November 24, 2022 @07:02AM (#33730343)
Ukraine electrical grid is Soviet one, so hardly crackable from remote being essentially purely electromechanical. Westerns grids on contrary...

Just to say one recent https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/23/microsoft-boa-server-energ...