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Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by neilv on Friday November 18, 2022 @11:12AM (#33656815)
For anyone who doesn't know, Judas was the betrayer symbol maybe most familiar to US people then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot

Another facet of this reference is that Jesus was called "the Good Shepherd", and there were analogies of protecting and leading his flock in a caring and benevolent way, rescuing a lamb who was lost, etc.:

https://start.duckduckgo.com/?q=good+shepherd&iax=images&ia=...

Judas, an apostle (kind of an apprentice) of the Good Shepherd, when a slaughterhouse goat leading literal sheep to their deaths, sounds like a very Bad Shepherd.

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by whimsicalism on Friday November 18, 2022 @11:26AM (#33657057)
> Judas was the betrayer symbol maybe most familiar to US people then:

Probably still so now. Judas is the betrayer par excellence in American culture.

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by Mountain_Skies on Friday November 18, 2022 @11:35AM (#33657205)
Thought it would be Benedict Arnold for the US. Is Judas not considered a betrayer in Christian communities outside the US? Seems weird to connect Judas uniquely to American culture.
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by neilv on Friday November 18, 2022 @11:48AM (#33657458)
I have some idea of the US where and when the original article is talking about, but can't speak of elsewhere.
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by whimsicalism on Friday November 18, 2022 @11:55AM (#33657577)
Not sure where you read the "unique" statement in my comment, but it was never meant to be implied.

American culture is very Christian influenced, even now.

e: I would be curious if the name "Judas" or its equivalent is a common synonym for traitor outside of english, however.

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by gpderetta on Friday November 18, 2022 @12:47PM (#33658590)
It is in Italian.
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by bombcar on Friday November 18, 2022 @11:34AM (#33657180)
Even more than Benedict Arnold, I'd say. And certainly Judas is more well-known world-wide (c.f. Dante).
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by ben_w on Friday November 18, 2022 @11:55AM (#33657579)
I still find it weird that his story arc made it past the editors, such as they were, and I'm not sure if I mean the people who decided what was/wasn't canon back in the day and/or the English translators from King James edition onwards.

It's a massive plot hole in the NT, that a person whose mission can only be fulfilled by a death/resurrection cycle (to the extent of making sure none of his other allies prevented the death, nor making even a cursory attempt at defence in either of the two trials) would regard Judas as a betrayer.

And yet, he is named as such even before the deed. Although, looking at this text, I assume a wild mistranslation happened somewhere and that the original word which became "betray" had a much more general sense of causing harm rather than violating trust or confidence:

> After he received the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “Do quickly what you are going to do.”

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by dougmwne on Friday November 18, 2022 @12:16PM (#33657976)
Not much of a plot hole. Judas betrayed for greed. He fulfilled the resurrection through his evil, which does not make him good. In any random Hollywood movie, the villain would not be redeemed by accidentally helping the hero in the course of their schemes.
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by sam36 on Friday November 18, 2022 @12:08PM (#33657811)
Perhaps I am just dumb... but I'm not following anything you are saying. If Christ had to die to be a sacrifice, how is someone turning him in make it a "plot hole"?? Who else would it occur, just by chance?
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by ben_w on Friday November 18, 2022 @12:12PM (#33657891)
The problem isn't that Judas turned him in, it's that this is somehow a bad thing.
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by aerostable_slug on Friday November 18, 2022 @12:25PM (#33658146)
The fulfillment of the process wasn't bad, but Judas was. It's not like he was in on the whole plan.
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by ben_w on Friday November 18, 2022 @07:25PM (#33665076)
Except the bit I quoted kinda implies he was told to do it by Jesus (or both Jesus and Satan):

> After he received the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “Do quickly what you are going to do.”

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by boomboomsubban on Friday November 18, 2022 @08:41PM (#33665789)
From my recollection of Catholic school, Judas was tempted into being the betrayer, but his legacy as the betrayer is due to his abandoning his faith in Jesus and refusing to confess his sins. Both Judas and Peter are supposed to have betrayed Jesus on Good Friday, but Peter repented while Judas let his guilt drive him to suicide.

The message is supposed to be the devil tempts us all, and failure is inevitable, but God/Jesus forgives all.

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by collegeburner on Friday November 18, 2022 @03:26PM (#33661543)
right thing, wrong reasons. selling someone out is still morally wrong even if it all works out in the end.
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by whimsicalism on Friday November 18, 2022 @03:55PM (#33662029)
By your logic, the predator in To Catch A Predator is not doing a bad thing.
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by ben_w on Friday November 18, 2022 @07:22PM (#33665047)
I see zero in common at every level, unless you wish to count the name "Chris".
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by whimsicalism on Friday November 18, 2022 @11:58AM (#33657634)
It probably made it past the "editors" because the Judas betrayal actually happened (Christ myth theories aside), whereas the death/resurrection cycle... not so much.
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by toast0 on Friday November 18, 2022 @07:26PM (#33665094)
I'm not invested in this story, but Voldermort doesn't get a pass because without his actions Harry wouldn't be a great wizard.

The Baron Harkonnen doesn't get a pass on killing Duke Leto cause it put Paul on the path to becoming a messiah. Dr. Yeuh doesn't get a pass on betraying the Atredies because that put Paul on the path either; of course, his situation is a bit more nuanced what with the promise of joining his wife and leaving stillsuits for Paul and Jessica.

> “Do quickly what you are going to do.”

So, maybe this is supposed to illustrate forgiveness. I know you're gonna do this thing, but it's going to work out, and I don't blame you. Or maybe it's do it or don't do it, but let's not take all day wondering about it.

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by galdosdi on Friday November 18, 2022 @08:29PM (#33665680)
It's not a plot hole, it's a plot point, that makes Judas a complex, tragic character. John 13:27 addresses this a little. You might enjoy Jesus Christ Superstar, which is reasonably based on the text but takes some interpretive liberties, and is set from Judas's troubled point of view.

Interestingly, JCS was controversial among some christians for portraying Judas in a sympathetic light. But the text always did portray him in a more complex manner. He did end up hanging himself in shame over his actions very soon after, for example.

Perhaps in today's era of nonstop marvel superhero movies and super partisan political content, you have become accustomed to simple stories where all the characters and motivations are very black and white. But in older times, people were able to appreciate a good complex story told about complex characters with complex and conflicting motivations and emotions...

PS: King James is a notoriously mediocre translation whose only advantage is nostalgia for English speakers and a false patina of "ancientness" (in fact, the KJV is pretty new compared to the original texts, just as the English language is, obviously). If you are interested in learning more, I would avoid everyday bibles sold to everyday christians and look at textbooks with nice commentaries of the sorts you might see used in a college religion or theology class

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by sillysaurusx on Friday November 18, 2022 @11:52AM (#33657529)
Heh:

> Assembly ship, also known as a Judas goat, a bomber aircraft used by the U.S. Air Force in World War II to lead formations.

Imagine being the pilot. Funny name.

(I tried pasting the link too, but apparently the back button no longer remembers input text on iPad. If only there was a kill buffer. Regardless, it’s via the bottom of that page -> Judas goat -> disambiguation.)

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by WorkerBee28474 on Friday November 18, 2022 @10:08PM (#33666442)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_ship

Amazing. I've been reading WWII history for decades, and I hadn't heard of this until today.

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by zeristor on Friday November 18, 2022 @12:00PM (#33657673)
Erm, I hate to break it to you.

Shepherds work in the life stock industry, a Shepherd that doesn't bring sheep to slaughter is eventually going to have too many sheep.

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by neilv on Friday November 18, 2022 @12:21PM (#33658069)
Sunday School didn't delve into that. :)
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by lurquer on Friday November 18, 2022 @12:49PM (#33658651)
Not always.

Some flocks are for wool.

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by Retric on Friday November 18, 2022 @01:56PM (#33660047)
Generally the same sheep is used for wool and slaughtered for meat. Old sheep produce subpar wool, just like old humans hair is thinner etc. You also don’t want to keep feeding an animal that’s likely to die before you can harvest the wool.

Warning video at bottom of page is graphic: https://www.woolfacts.com/wool-and-animal-welfare/slaughterh...

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by EdwardDiego on Saturday November 19, 2022 @12:53AM (#33667385)
In the past, yes, you were correct, but now, you're incorrect.

For starters, no-one buys hogget or mutton anymore. The only sheep meat there's a market for is lamb.

Secondly, the largest profitable market in wool is fine wool used in clothing, like from merino sheep. They're terrible eating, but their wool is amazing.

Dual purpose breeds like the Romney provide coarse wool, which is great for carpets and blankets, but the market for both wool carpets and wool blankets has shrunk in the face of competition from synthetic fibres.

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by Retric on Saturday November 19, 2022 @06:48AM (#33669303)
Domestic demand is low, but cheap protein is always in demand.

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/sheep/sheep-live-export?page=0%2...

https://www.worldstopexports.com/top-sheep-and-lamb-meat-exp...

The US is an outlier here.

Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by EdwardDiego on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:39AM (#33689205)
I'm a New Zealander :) And if I wanted to purchase a mutton or hogget roast, I'd have to go to a specialist butcher, and cross my fingers. Pretty much all of our sheep raised for meat are butchered as lamb, simply because it's what the world market consumes.
Re:Judas Goats: Drug-Addicted Masters of Deceit Once Ruled t... by neilv on Friday November 18, 2022 @03:14PM (#33661379)
This had 3-4 upvotes quickly, then got to -1. It's about the meaning of the name, and I thought in the same vein as the article.