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Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by hbn on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:17AM (#33531878)
> Many people predicted this would be a permanent acceleration that would continue even after the pandemic ended.

I mean people who had financial gain on the line (like yourselves) pretended this was the case so you could cash in at the time and then pull the rug once it wasn't working any more (as you're doing now), but everyone with half a brain knew it wasn't sustainable.

Literally how could that acceleration be permanent? With the insane exponential growth inflated by covid in 2020/2021, you'd have a few years before these big tech companies would have to be gaining more users than exist on earth.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by martius on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:28AM (#33532063)
I read this as "we expected to stay at the levels we were at at the beginning of 2022, but instead things went back (down) to the levels of 2019".
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by hbn on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @12:05PM (#33534547)
They specifically said "acceleration" though, not velocity

Meaning they expected to continue picking up speed, not maintain their speed

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by roflyear on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:21AM (#33531929)
FB is making $30+bn a year profit, and is laying off people to reduce costs by $2b. They could continue to pay these people.

Large corporations are insane. Every small and medium company would wait to do layoffs until it threatened the business. Some even until after that point. Layoffs are awful.

Large corps, nah. Just lay people off if we get a little nervous!

Note, I don't think these corps are entitled to employ you. Absolutely not. I just think the corporate situation we got ourselves in is really nasty.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by 8b16380d on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:35AM (#33532164)
Completely agree.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by abstractmath on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:50AM (#33532344)
> Large corporations are insane. Every small and medium company would wait to do layoffs until it threatened the business. Some even until after that point

This is super idealized. How many layoffs have been going on in startup land recently?

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by skrebbel on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:01AM (#33532519)
You mean teeny tiny cutesy startups like Stripe and Twilio?
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by abstractmath on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:07AM (#33532619)
Look at the companies on http://layoffs.fyi

Lots of small and medium sized companies, and I know for some that it was not their last move before going under.

We had a hiring boom driven by cheap money, which is now ending. Now we get the inverse.

Has nothing to do with insane large corps and saintly SMBs.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by tomtheelder on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @12:56PM (#33535350)
While I agree it's very idealized, a lot of those startups probably are legitimately financially threatened in the immediate term in a way that Meta most certainly isn't.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by roflyear on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @01:01PM (#33535440)
It is absolutely idealized.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by martindbp on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:39AM (#33533119)
They are laying off people because the value of the company just tanked 70% in a few months. The value of a company contains all the future estimated discounted earnings, the trend of earnings matters more than current earnings. The actions of a company is determined by what its shareholders want, which is to maximize stock price, not be satisfied with X billions in profits when the stock is down 70%. The actions of companies will remain a mystery to people who do not understand this.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by roflyear on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @01:01PM (#33535434)
Well, yeah. But I think that mechanism is pretty awful.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by martindbp on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @09:50PM (#33541588)
Yeah it's awful, but that's life. FWIW I have family working at Meta so I'm not just being callous.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by oblio on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @05:29PM (#33538968)
The value of a company contains Lalaland logic, as Tesla, Toyota and GameStop prove.

The link between actual business logic and company valuation broke down around 2010.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by jbverschoor on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:56AM (#33533423)
Small companies don't pay over 200k + perks for someone who just graduated
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by pm90 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @11:19AM (#33533784)
SFBA companies do, actually.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by 22SAS on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @01:23PM (#33535765)
Trading firms are small companies, and most of us definitely pay that (sometimes a lot more) to new graduates.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by xyzzyz on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @11:09AM (#33533636)
They lay people off, because companies always want to lay some people off, and doing so in normal times is even less palatable. Employees are not fungible, and some employees are worth to companies less than the company wants.

This is not to say that every single person being laid off is of low value, that’s not true. It’s just it is hard to lay off only low performers, some average or even good performer will always be collateral damage. But, overall, if you want well-performing companies to not do mass layoffs on recession, the only way is to make it more palatable to people to see mass firings in good times.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by rajman187 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @12:31PM (#33534953)
> FB is making $30+bn a year profit, and is laying off people to reduce costs by $2b. They could continue to pay these people.

The quarterly revenue was about $27bn but net profit $4bn, so you're off by a factor of 7 or more on the estimate. R&D expenses alone are $9bn, and the largest operational expense is employee comp, by a LOT, distant second being data centers. For added measure, they also reduced real estate footprint along with the 11k employees.

The company has also essentially doubled in size every year since ~2013, and that was certainly encouraged by false positives in terms of future projections when the pandemic hit. So this is really not surprising, and a major cost-saving function for them.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by roflyear on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @01:00PM (#33535422)
Mmm, I was looking at 2021 profit. Anyway, 16b a year is not a factor of 7 off from 30b.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by rajman187 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @01:56PM (#33536229)
Yeah 2020-21 was wild. Revenue is not profit, though.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by RandomBK on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:23PM (#33536568)
7.4% of profit (2/27) versus 50% of profit (2/4) was the factor of ~7 parent was referring to.

Granted these are comparing annual cost versus quarterly figures, but the overall narrative still stands.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by riku_iki on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @01:10PM (#33535584)
> R&D expenses alone are $9bn

Are RSUs included into this number?

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by _zoltan_ on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:32PM (#33537432)
why would RSU (a comp element) be included in R&D spending?
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by disgruntledphd2 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @04:41PM (#33538301)
Because r&d spending at tech companies means engineers and product.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by gregshap on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @01:15PM (#33535658)
In the last four quarters FB's reported profit went from $10B to $7.5B to $6B to $4B. The business is threatened.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by sabellito on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @11:13AM (#33533698)
> but everyone with half a brain knew it wasn't sustainable.

Did you short all these companies and are currently a billionaire? Since it took only half a brain to know.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by enumjorge on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @11:31AM (#33533982)
Isn’t part of shorting also predicting when the drop will happen?
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by three_seagrass on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @01:04PM (#33535482)
Yeah, I shorted during the pandemic but missed the drop several times. Everyone knew to short, it's the when that nobody could fathom.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by mattnewton on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @11:52AM (#33534319)
He's also not an accredited investor, selling a stock short in any significant volume is not like making a retail purchase. It can be quite hard to make money off knowing a stock will crash, and that's not even accounting for needing to know _when_ precisely since most of the ways involve short dated options. I gave up after investigating ways to bet on interest rate hikes and market corrections, and just went cash heavy at the end of 2021. That doesn't make you a billionaire it makes you just not lose principle.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by RandomBK on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:19PM (#33536511)
Buying some puts also works.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by throwaw20221107 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:58PM (#33537725)
lol exactly (https://xkcd.com/451)

"i need to short a stock"

"have you tried options?"

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by mattnewton on Thursday November 10, 2022 @10:14AM (#33547648)
buying puts probably isn't going to make you a billionaire though? The maximum return is the difference between the strike and the lowest price before expiration, and prices generally don't drop to 0. Realistically, you would need access to a lot of leverage to become a billionaire with puts, or already be a multi-millionaire.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by danielmarkbruce on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:20PM (#33536534)
From a practical perspective 99.999% of people can short most stocks as much as their net worth will allow. And there are many options trading out over a year.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by andromeduck on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @06:42PM (#33539845)
Most people on HN probably are - especially those at FAANG.

It's just 2 years with 200k individual or 300k combined income, or 1M NAV.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by mattnewton on Thursday November 10, 2022 @10:16AM (#33547674)
True, this was the wrong way to phrase it on my part. What I should have said is "they probably aren't a professional investor who knows what they are doing and has access to lots of capital or leverage, and a Bloomberg terminal or whatever people use these days to locate stock to borrow and sell short".
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by twoWhlsGud on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @12:24PM (#33534843)
the economist John Maynard Keynes notably said, “the markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.”

A good thing to remember when you're tempted to sell short.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by Invictus0 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @12:29PM (#33534923)
Do you actually think that reciting this quote is contributing to the discussion? Maybe you should tell us the alphabet next.
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by Qub3d on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @12:53PM (#33535302)
It's a good counterpoint to the equally throw away argument that "if you disagreed with x you should have shorted it".

The problem with shorting is you can't just be right about the eventual direction... You have to be pretty bang on with the timing as well.

Therefore it's absolutely possible for people to suspect or have strong belief that something is unsustainable without having the liquidity or confidence on timing to take action on it.

No it's not to say there aren't Perma bears and other I told you so people crawling out of the woodwork, but that doesn't mean that every person who didn't capitalize on this is Monday-morning quarterbacking.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by MagicMoonlight on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:35PM (#33536729)
I don't know how you think investing works, but you can't become a billionaire unless you are already a 900 millionaire
Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by dolmen on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @11:58AM (#33534415)
Many thought that commerce was switching to online.

But in fact stores reopened and people went back to massively buy at stores instead of offline. Parenthesis is closed.

Re:Meta lays off 11,000 people by fullshark on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @02:34PM (#33536725)
Have you heard of the metaverse?