News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by qznc on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:30AM (#33121001)
Let’s use Google+ as an example. It did shut down and still not all wounds have healed yet. For example, the indie RPG scene laments its demise.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by loceng on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:32AM (#33121019)
"... the indie RPG scene laments its demise."

Where did they move?

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by noasaservice on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:39AM (#33121105)
Sometimes when communities die or are killed, they don't come back. Nobody knows where to go to re-convene.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by voakbasda on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:41AM (#33122025)
This should part of a plan for online organizational continuity. Any community that uses big tech’s services should probably have one.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by remram on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:04AM (#33122332)
This is different because mastodon.technology will keep operating until December 1st. This leaves them plenty of time to organize a move by discussing it on the platform like they always have.

They might move to different Mastodon instances (via the built-in migration system) or find a new network, but they are not getting killed with no way to find each other afterwards.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by dredmorbius on Friday October 07, 2022 @05:31PM (#33127110)
One of the huge problems with on-platform discussions is ... that the discussion itself dies with the platform, and any decisions or announcements disappear with it.

At the same time, based on my own personal experience, it is absolutely impossible to get people to move to another platform or service even for the purpose of discussing future plans.

My exceedingly strong advice is to have multiple points of presence defined as a matter of course, one of which should be a simple email list (which provides persistent contact information), regardless of any awareness of an impending platform shutdown.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by remram on Saturday October 08, 2022 @02:48PM (#33134859)
As I said, mastodon.technology announced shutdown in advance, they haven't yet shut down. So people can discuss future plans there, they don't have to move to do it.

I agree it is difficult in the situation you describe, which is not mastodon.technology's situation.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by dredmorbius on Saturday October 08, 2022 @03:56PM (#33135461)
Having gone through this multiple times on both Mastodon and other social networks (Google+), not having a readily-accessible discussion record is a problem.

I'd created both a subreddit (https://old.reddit.com/r/plexodus) and wiki (https://social.antefriguserat.de/index.php/Main_Page) to memorialise at least some of that discussion, as well as the on-platform discussion.

That last is of course now unobtainable, though there were over 700 snapshots of the community homepage saved to the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine, see:

<https://web.archive.org/web/20190401071102/https://plus.goog...>

Because of the mechanics of both G+ and IAWBM, actually navigating to articles from that archive ... mostly does not work.

The G+ community had over 4,000 members (pretty good for late-stage G+). The subreddit ... a hair over 300.

People. Will. Not. Go. Off. Platform. Even. If. That. Completely. Fucks. Them. Over.

It's a really perverse dynamic.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by insightcheck on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:45AM (#33121196)
This is just a guess, but probably various subreddits and Discord servers. It's probably not the same because the platforms are very different, but people will find new platforms even if the conversation changes due to different forum/messaging UI designs.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by dumpsterlid on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:28AM (#33122646)
"and Discord servers"

vomits in my mouth a bit

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by insightcheck on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:18PM (#33125717)
Could be more different. In less tech-focused communities, the migration that follows a forum closure goes to Facebook groups instead of subreddits, and Slack channels instead of Discord.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by pwinnski on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:18AM (#33121676)
Mostly discord as far as I can see. There's no single place, though.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by tfrutuoso on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:45AM (#33122074)
Google isn't really a good example, they love killing off services on a whim. Meta closing down Facebook would be much more... dramatic, shall we say.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by howenterprisey on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:31AM (#33122679)
Google+ is a great example of the point that once a community's platform gets shut down, it's often tough to find another place to meet, and some people don't survive the transition.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by galaxyLogic on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:41AM (#33122832)
Right. So what happened to UseNet-News? Would that not be an ideal federated platform with a standard protocol and everything?
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by vidarh on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:58AM (#33123076)
Maintaining federation of USENET was a massive effort. I used to run an NNTP server, and spent way too much time dealing with ensuring we had redundant feeds and kept up with the volume. And on top of that handling spam. It worked well for what it was at the time, but it was nowhere near an ideal federated platform.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by vgel on Friday October 07, 2022 @04:13PM (#33126359)
What has Mastodon improved on this process, though? It seems the same issues are in place -- difficult to administer technically (this post) and hard to deal with spam (have heard before, don't have a link on hand unfortunately). This is a genuine question -- I wasn't around for USENET so maybe this is a "quantity of difference becomes quality of difference" issue where the degree of effort for maintaining it was just way harder than it is now.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by jlkuester7 on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:23PM (#33129527)
I deployed and have been maintaining a very small Mastodon server (~10 active users) for several years now and I can say that at my scale it is not difficult (for someone with modest technical abilities but no professional sysadmin experience). Sure if your instance is as large as Mastodon.technology and you are the only admin doing it as a hobby/side-gig then things can get rough.

Regarding spam, there is some (seemingly inevitable in any community involving humans). But frankly Mastodon, right from the beginning, focused heavily on Moderation tools. Figuratively speaking, no expense has been spared to make it easy and convenient to block bad actors (or instances) from your account (or your whole instance).

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by vidarh on Saturday October 08, 2022 @09:10AM (#33132001)
The biggest thing is that expectations are different. Mastodon doesn't do much (or rather ActivityPub doesn't do much - there are many ActivityPub implementations), though there's at least a less manual way of handling federation than having to e-mail people and get added to their config by hand.

With USENET people expected to see every posts in the newsgroups they were subscribed to, and a lot of people would complain loudly if anything was missing. With a network like this nobody expects to read everything. At the same time receiving everything is easier (still) - if you federate with a couple major endpoints you get most stuff. There will be challenges with this as the network grows but I spent too much time ensuring we got messages from newsgroup X within Y hours (less was unfeasible, as there were still sites exchanging on a schedule via dialup).

With respect to spam, once you accept you're not likely to see everything, things get a lot simpler and you can apply a lot more aggressive filtering.

Personally I'm working on my own ActivityPub implementation, and one of the things I've used on Twitter in the past very effectively via the Twitter API was a simple Bayesian network used to rank things to surface interesting stuff, but lots of room to apply more sophisticated machine learning there too.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by galaxyLogic on Friday October 07, 2022 @07:46PM (#33128374)
Maintaining anything takes effort, so who's gonna do it for free?

Maybe there could be a variant of NNTP which allowed some amount of advertisement posts in between. Then let the maintainers keep the proceeds from those?

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by vidarh on Saturday October 08, 2022 @09:11AM (#33132007)
For NNTP there's a whole (small) industry around providing paid subscriptions.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by louky on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:55AM (#33123041)
I'm back on Usenet, and hey my 5 digit uid on /. Still works! Meta-moderation!
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by ZWoz on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:43PM (#33123743)
Usenet is still here. Smaller, than used to be, but still here. Probably average English speaking person even don't understand, how big it is: there are healthy German speaking userbase, lot of people from Italy, even some Finnish groups have life in them.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by politician on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:47PM (#33124656)
The main problem here is that contact information is lost. If there's one problem that distributed blockchain technology would be the better solution for, it's a durable collection of self-managed identifiers and groups of identifiers.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by monocasa on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:52AM (#33122159)
MySpace and AIM might be better examples then.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by lapcat on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:25AM (#33122612)
MySpace today still has more active users than Mastodon.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by monocasa on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:21PM (#33123396)
MySpace deleted all content prior to 2016, making it effectively a new network from the Myspace people normally talk about.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by edgyquant on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:58AM (#33122241)
No, there are no good examples is the point because we’ve never been here before
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by nix23 on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:42PM (#33124584)
Oh the youngsters....
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by deelowe on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:31AM (#33122681)
Or geocities.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by TedDoesntTalk on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:37PM (#33129032)
Yahoo Groups
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by dimitrios1 on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:59AM (#33122250)
Not even. Still a fraction of the userbase and daily activity we are talking about with today's social sites.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by riffic on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:44AM (#33122883)
Google's the best example to be honest.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by jefftk on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:51AM (#33122146)
> Let’s use Google+ as an example.

Facebook and Twitter are extremely popular services, and have been at or near the top of their categories for over a decade.

Google+ was an attempt to challenge them, shut down after it failed without ever becoming anywhere near as popular.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Friday October 07, 2022 @08:11PM (#33128522)
But still plenty popular - at it's peak it had 200 million users. For comparison, that's nearly 2/3 the population of the USA
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by thephyber on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:10PM (#33128896)
That metric is very misleading.

That is the number of Google accounts that didn’t go through the effort of disconnecting from / opting out of Google+. For a few years, all new accounts were automatically enrolled in Google+. It’s likely an extremely inflated number compared to the number of users that engaged with Google+ social features.

Citation: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/01/google-doubles-plus-...

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by ufmace on Saturday October 08, 2022 @04:25PM (#33135684)
I agree with the sibling that that isn't a representative number. I think we'd want to know something related to actual participation - what's the average daily or weekly number of posts or likes or whatever equivalent is in Plus versus Facebook, Twitter, etc.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by rco8786 on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:02AM (#33122303)
> Google+ as an example

It's probably a better example of a service that never got off the ground.

Twitter and FB could survive for decades just on the their current cash positions alone.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by dredmorbius on Friday October 07, 2022 @05:27PM (#33127061)
I suspect otherwise.

One of the challenges of a social network, especially in a declining phase, is that there is far less commercial value being generated at the same time that various sorts of costs, including attacks on the network in both technical and social/economic senses increase. High-value members abandon the network, and those who remain are either stuck (say, because of institutional circumstances elsewhere), or are actively seeking to exploit other members.

This means that Trust & Safety costs are constantly increasing at the same time that recruiting talent to serve that role becomes increasingly difficult.

What the true cost curve looks like isn't clear, but basing your statement on a constant cost based on present experience is ... probably flawed.

This is especially true at Facebook's scale.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by chimeracoder on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:06AM (#33122357)
> Let’s use Google+ as an example. It did shut down and still not all wounds have healed yet

Despite (and in contrast to) the absolute massive marketing effort that Google put into Google+ right from launch, it never achieved mainstream success as anything other than an OAuth login tool. That doesn't mean nobody used it, but it was always niche.

It's not a proper comparison for Twitter or Facebook, which grew organically and are both mainstream successes as social networks.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by eitland on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:46AM (#33122906)
Sad sad story.

It was the best social network that existed, and before it shut down it had so gotten so much right that I think no others have matched anywhere near the complete feature sets.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by ipaddr on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:55PM (#33124744)
I remember Google+ and thought it was bad for the average person overall and I'm glad they shut it down for unrelated reasons.

Having the biggest social network sucking up personal data to feed the ad network is the reality we are in. Having Google with a larger collection of personal data linking everything to a large social network would have made things worse. Google+ forced real names which made facebook force real names. Google appstore and preinstalled apps you cannot remove force location data. Google obtaining your social graph leads down a dark path.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by eitland on Friday October 07, 2022 @04:23PM (#33126475)
Very good points.

Still, technically, Google+ was far ahead of their competition.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by tanepiper on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:59PM (#33123970)
I'm still pissed at Google for deleting everything related to a Google+ profile. I had a second gaming profile linked to my main one which also has a YouTube linked to it.

Their email about shuttering went into a tab in Gmail and didn't spot it, a suddenly my entire YouTube channel was deleted.

Hundreds of hours of work of crafting early videos of Elite: Dangerous and the beauty of its simulated galaxy just gone.

Luckily backed up on a NAS but I've never put them back up.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by ByThyGrace on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:15PM (#33124212)
TIL about .compact on reddit threads. Thanks!
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by giantrobot on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:42PM (#33124580)
Wait until you learn about .json and .rss on Reddit threads! IIRC they used to work for subreddits as well but I have not tested either in...forever.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by dredmorbius on Friday October 07, 2022 @05:28PM (#33127075)
A few of the Reddit RSS features I've found / documented:

<https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/1sxfar/reddit_...>

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by groffee on Saturday October 08, 2022 @03:54AM (#33130603)
That's crazy. I built an entire scraping engine just to get Reddit posts, I'm pretty sure .rss isn't documented anywhere at all, would have saved me so much work!
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by dredmorbius on Saturday October 08, 2022 @04:32AM (#33130741)
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by andsoitis on Friday October 07, 2022 @04:05PM (#33126274)
Didn’t G+ shut down primarily because nobody was using it (failed to compete against other options)?
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by Kye on Friday October 07, 2022 @04:16PM (#33126402)
They shut it down because PR disasters were adding up due to security breaches from not having enough people paying attention to it.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by dredmorbius on Friday October 07, 2022 @05:23PM (#33127021)
Google's stated reason for shutting down Google+ was on account of security issues.

That said, Google's stated communications regarding Google+ had and have been questionable from the start. I'd had my own part in this in addressing the true size of the active community on the site, which was far below the 3--4 billion listed profiles and many hundreds of millions of active users touted. In practice, probably closer to 4--6 million true frequently actives within 30 days or so (itself not unsubstantial), and perhaps 100 million who'd been active at some point.

<https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/naya9wqdemiovuvwvoyquq>

But I'd take that stated reason with a large dose of salt.

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by jrnichols on Sunday October 09, 2022 @01:35PM (#33143421)
I vaguely remember Ello being mentioned as the place to go that wasn't Google+, and I see that they have now pivoted to being an artist social network. kind of interesting.
Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by dredmorbius on Sunday October 09, 2022 @04:15PM (#33144848)
Ello's had an interesting ride.

It began as a venture by a couple of graphic artists, focused on artists. It happened to have (for a few iterations) a quite clean design based on Markdown, and (with a couple of what should have been reasonably small tweaks) could have done well in the long-form text+images space (now largely owned / failed by old-school blogging engines such as Wordpress, Medium, and Substack).

The features it had, including Markdown's sections and tables was why I'd posted that particular take on G+ there. It simply presented the information better than any other readily-available platform I was using at the time.

In 2015 a bunch of trans activists and sex performers who'd been hounded off Facebook by its Real Names policy wound up on Ello, and a few people arrived from other platforms (I was at the time a refugee from G+). For about six to twelve months it was the New Hawtness, and attempted a few pivots to the space, but performed fairly poorly in doing so. My own Ello profile has a link to a set of curated posts, one section of which details various gripes and failings.

One thing Ello did do was organise as a B-Corp with a community focus. That went swimmingly until it didn't, with the first accepting VC money then being sold to a collector of such sites. The B-Corp language seems to have disappeared, along with the community principles texts. What's left is now ... a sort of vaguely art-aggregation site with an interesting history but little future so far as I can tell. It's burned virtually all its early adoptors (myself included).

Re:Mastodon.technology Shutdown by madeofpalk on Friday October 07, 2022 @08:15PM (#33128559)
Twitter and Facebook has users.