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Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by tempsy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:09PM (#32928138)
This will be the trend among most tech companies.

Very clear the market has now negatively reacted to high operating expenses that largely stem from excessive headcount.

Most companies will likely not reduce pay if they can help it to maintain competitiveness, but if you’re a bottom or middle performer or on a non-revenue generating team suddenly your job security even at “safe” companies like Google is at risk.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by treis on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:37PM (#32928498)
>Very clear the market has now negatively reacted to high operating expenses that largely stem from excessive headcount.

Reducing staff by ~10% or whatever after doubling it in the last couple years isn't exactly a strong signal of anything.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by tempsy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:41PM (#32928548)
I’m speaking more to the stock price than Meta’s actions. Shares trading lower than they were 5 years ago. And many of the unprofitable growth companies down 80-90% in less than a year.

Point is tech companies are highly sensitive to interest rates and now have to course correct in a world where the market is punishing excessive spending.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by nappy-doo on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:14PM (#32930032)
Not really. Meta raised 10B (really their first debt ever) in April 2022, and GOOG has like 14B in debt. Google could pay that with less than a quarter's worth of earnings, and I think Meta's not far behind.

IMO, the market is overreacting. Both companies look pretty cheap to me.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by nluken on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:10PM (#32930865)
Markets are forward looking. FB's growth numbers don't look great, and if you don't buy into their bet on the Metaverse you might be less inclined to see a bright future for that company.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by edmundsauto on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:17PM (#32931645)
Markets are forward looking, but people making the decisions are plagued by recency bias and fighting the last battle. No comment on the relative contribution of different incentives, but being "forward looking" doesn't mean "correct" and it can also include an overreaction based on recent data points.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by acchow on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:11PM (#32931576)
If FB revenue stops growing, markets are going to keep punishing it. A PER of 11 won’t feel cheap with 0% growth
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by dafty4 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:43PM (#32928579)
The stock price dive at Meta is pretty clearly due to the $10B hit from Apple’s Do Not Track Feature.

Meta should make a free Android phone that allows tracking.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by tempsy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:47PM (#32928610)
Nasdaq is down 30%. Clearly macro factors like rates and inflation and recessionary pressures are putting pressure on rate sensitive companies generally speaking. You can’t just say it’s ad tracking when dozens of mid and large cap tech stocks are down 30-80% ytd
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by paganel on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:05PM (#32928871)
> Clearly macro factors like rates and inflation

To quote from the latest Economist [1]:

> This logic has broader implications than most investors realise. Now imagine you will receive $100 a year, for ever. By the reasoning above, this has a finite present value, since compound interest means payments in the distant future are almost worthless. With interest rates at 1%, the payment stream is worth $10,000; at 5%, it is worth $2,000. But as well as reducing the value, the higher rate also changes the distribution of that value. With rates at 1%, less than a tenth of the stream’s value comes from payments made in the first ten years. At 5%, around two-fifths does.

and

> In other words, higher interest rates dramatically alter firms’ incentives when choosing which timeline to invest over. Sacrificing short-term profits for longer-term gains is one thing when you are trying to persuade investors that your superapp, machine-learning algorithm or gene-sequencing widget has the potential to up-end an industry. It is another when even the best-case scenario has its value so heavily skewed towards what can be done in the next decade. Startup founders are used to shaking off derision over implausible, Utopian dreams. It is more of a kick in the teeth to realise that even Utopia is not worth much unless it can be achieved in short order.

Sorry for the long quotes, it was the best I could do, I highly recommend that article in its entirety.

[1] https://archive.ph/9GbfH

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by subsubzero on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:35PM (#32929352)
Thanks for this, its confusing for many as to why growth companies(low/no-profit) are getting hit so hard due to rising interest rates and these quotes and the article linked explain the reasoning very well.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by robocat on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @09:30PM (#32933841)
The NPV values didn’t look weird enough, but I got the same results from: https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/financial/net-pre... — Values used: Interest Rate = %5, Compounding = 1 times per Period, Line 0 = $0, Line 1 = 5000 periods of $100.

However, I think the economist column/article misses some important points:

1: There is a stereotype that corporations only look at the next quarter’s earnings. The article argues the opposite, that corporations are long term focused. The article needs to address that point.

2: Stocks and dividends should be inflation proof (with some assumptions, such as revenues increase with inflation).

3. The article doesn’t seem to mention bonds, even though it talks about constant $ returns. What?

The most interesting part of the article for me was “The original marshmallow test, it turned out, had a flaw. Exclude some children from better-off families (which seems to make them both more willing to delay gratification and more likely to succeed in later life) and much of its predictive power suddenly disappears.” [Slight edits]

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by Infinitesimus on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:11PM (#32930875)
Oh but they did! Meta leadership has always anticipated this risk. The problem is that they have not been able to fully mitigate it.

Facebook Phone (rebranded HTC) was released in 2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_First but had poor sales.

The metaverse is their next play to build a world where they are a bit more shielded from Apple/Google/Microsoft's hardware influence. Pivoting a large business is really hard.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by mistrial9 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:23PM (#32931021)
I appreciate when people inside FB/Meta speak directly like this (as someone who loathes the Metaverse project)
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by Infinitesimus on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:00PM (#32931456)
To clarify, I'm not affiliated with Meta. Just an internet nerd who likes following how organizations think and evolve
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by stocknoob on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:05PM (#32928865)
Do not track is an easy scapegoat, but I think the rise of TikTok is a larger factor. Meta lost users.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by badwolf on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:37PM (#32929391)
I think this, along with a slew of other factors as well.

Meta pivoting to burn money on a VR universe that nobody actually seems to want. Meta burning FB users by constantly altering their FB news feed, making it less and less a place for friends, and more a place to see endless reposted memes and ads for drop-ship products and stolen IP tshirts. Meta burning Instagram users by trying to force everyone's favorite photo-sharing app to be a shittier version of TikTok, as well as the above constant feed refactors...

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by disgruntledphd2 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:04PM (#32929876)
It's definitely the ATT changes, literally cratered all their direct response ads on iOS (i.e. rich people).

TikTok is definitely a concern but turning off the money pump is a much, much bigger one.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by retinaros on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:26PM (#32931043)
if this is tiktok they shouldnt worry for long i bet it will be banned before end of year
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by VirusNewbie on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:32PM (#32931790)
The article says its 50 people at Google who are affected. And they have a chance to apply to other teams.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by jejeyyy77 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:24PM (#32928338)
Personally, being laid off sounds pretty good right about now. Paid vacation before going back into a hot job market for a full remote job.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by jzb on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:49PM (#32929606)
The job market seems to have cooled substantially from where I'm looking. I have friends at a lot of different major tech companies and hiring has slowed or stopped in all cases. Earlier this year it was full steam ahead hiring, now it's harder to get reqs, reqs are being pulled, etc.

Now, if you have really in-demand skills / experience that may not matter much. But companies are slamming on the breaks. If I was laid off tomorrow I'd expect it to take twice as long to find a job as it would've at the end of 2021 or early this year. Not "there aren't any jobs" but I wouldn't consider this a "hot" market for the majority of roles.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by marktangotango on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:52PM (#32930613)
I think the parent was posting ironically or forgot to add the \s? Otherwise, yeah, folks need to hang on to those '21/'22 salaries if they can. We may not see those again for some time.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by iepathos on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:49PM (#32931330)
Yeah, it definitely depends on what your occupation is. If you're a software engineer it's still crazy hot right now.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by ZephyrBlu on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:57PM (#32933608)
The poster above is talking about the SWE job market... If you think it's "crazy hot" at the moment what did you think it was last year?
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by mmmpop on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:13PM (#32931607)
I presume it’s web dev because good lord the market doesn’t need more people that only know how to do a React.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by subsubzero on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:31PM (#32929277)
Job market is on ice now, I used to get dozens of emails from recruiters every week, its trickled down to 1-2 now, which is nice as I am not looking to leave my company but its a stark contrast from 3+ months ago. And its a clear sign that companies are not hiring like they used to.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by tempsy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:30PM (#32928409)
Depends what your salary expectations are, I guess. Finding a role with the same compensation as a Meta/Google is more difficult than finding one of many dozens of companies that will pay you low six figures and some questionable equity package.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by throwaway22r on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:23PM (#32930164)
> some questionable equity package

one might argue it's a good time to gamble on a startup.

I'm recently spared from a massive layoff, but it wouldn't have been bad if I was part of that. The severance was 4 month pay plus accelerated vesting (for that 4 months)

I paid off my house thanks to the hot stock market in past 2 years (no one's saying it out loud, but pendamic has been a boom for IT workers), and have some cash cushion to maintain the lifestyle anywhere between 2 yrs to 5 yrs (depending on how frugal I choose to be)

So a 200 base and questionable (but high reward) equity in a startup working on things I'm interested in after a 4 month paid vacation? Doesnt sound too bad.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by jejeyyy77 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:32PM (#32928450)
True, prob won't be comparable to a really good equity package from Meta/Google. But seeing a lot of $200K+ cash comp for full remote companies.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by moonshinefe on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:36PM (#32928490)
Any recommendations for sites/services to look at job openings that aren't obvious? Or are you seeing these through your network or something?
[dead]
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by pb7 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:07PM (#32929939)
So you agree it's a downgrade in quality of life? Not sure what the point of this comment is other than being rude to people earning more than you.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by rjh29 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:52PM (#32930624)
Adjusting to drinking your own coffee rather than ordering Starbucks via uber 3 times a day is an easier adjustment from going to affording food to not affording it all. Didn't think it needed to be spelled out but there you go.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by pb7 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:26PM (#32931050)
No one said otherwise, this is just a strawman. You don't have to be a dick just because something bad happens to someone doing better than you. Didn't think it needed to be spelled out but there you go.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by paganel on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:59PM (#32928782)
> hot job market for a full remote job.

I honestly don't think there are that many remote jobs available that pay at the FAANG level, outside of FAANG companies, that is. Unless one goes into consulting, which comes with its own risks even during a non-turbulent and recession-proof market, which most definitely we don't have right now.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by jollyllama on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:45PM (#32928595)
It's cooling off. Zombie companies are going to have trouble continuing as rates rise.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by lumost on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:13PM (#32928984)
This. There are more than a few companies where their burn rate + valuation make it impossible to do anything except go full steam ahead. If you lose a billion dollars a year on 500 MM in revenue with 2 billion in the bank and cost of goods sold of 600 MM /yr what else can you do? Hopefully you'll continue growing and get to the point where cutting costs leaves a viable business.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by jejeyyy77 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:49PM (#32928644)
people have been saying this for 2 decades. I'll believe it when I see it.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by tempsy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:55PM (#32928715)
You haven’t noticed a bunch of multi bil tech cos down 90% in less than a year?

Carvana is the poster child of zombie tech co that only made sense in a zero rate environment. Many others like it.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by walthamstow on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:41PM (#32930473)
I see your Carvana and raise you a Klarna
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by jszymborski on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:10PM (#32931571)
I must be pretty out of the loop because these sound like new Pokemon names.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by wollsmoth on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:52PM (#32928685)
rates haven't been rising for two decades.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by jejeyyy77 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:54PM (#32928698)
there's been a new reason for why "this time is different" for the past 2 decades.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by Apocryphon on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:07PM (#32929924)
The boom of the past two decades was fueled by low interest rates!
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by jejeyyy77 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:39PM (#32930436)
and before that it was the other thing. As I said, I'll believe it when I see it ;)
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by Apocryphon on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:54PM (#32930649)
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by wollsmoth on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:45PM (#32929541)
I mean a number of tech companies are declining in value. What would you need to see happen to consider them "in trouble"? More layoffs?
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by jollyllama on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:57PM (#32928751)
Well, there was at least one significant downturn during that time. Raising rates are causing problems. This isn't an apocalyptic prediction.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by karmasimida on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:04PM (#32929879)
Well you can always test the market, it won't hurt anyway.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by karmasimida on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:42PM (#32929483)
> hot job market

You'd be surprised :). Even Amazon isn't eating up engineers like it was a year ago.

No, there is no hot job market, unless you want to take 30-40% pay cut.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by retinaros on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:18PM (#32930963)
amazon is still massively hiring because they already pip people and they have a 4year cliff where people leave willingly cauz they make less.

also frugality is already looped in amazon values so they wont overhire like google or meta

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by karmasimida on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:42PM (#32931250)
At least retail/Alexa is on some sort of hiring freeze as I heard.

Problem is the same, lot of businesses get cut or deprioritized

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by KerrAvon on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:29PM (#32932995)
Amazon will have to keep hiring ravenously or they will run out of people to feed to the stack ranking fire.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by boringg on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:38PM (#32929403)
What job market are you looking at? The small shops with help wanted? I don't know any tech companies on major hiring and not many small companies have had any big rounds to raise and grow on AFAIK...
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by jejeyyy77 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:58PM (#32930700)
you don't know any tech companies hiring?
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by j-krieger on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:01PM (#32932745)
No idea what you‘re on about. I‘ve just been let go from a large fortune 100 company (contract expired) and its been tough so far.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by lumost on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:13PM (#32928195)
In fairness, at a mega-corp there is very little data on whether an employee would be successful in a different group. Some groups have bad charters/bad team dynamics/bad skills match. An internal transfer has a huge amount of visibility into these aspects when they transfer, much more than an external hire would.

Its a pretty good deal to suggest to employees that they find a new team rather than performing a layoff, I wouldn't be surprised if the profitable/successful teams can still add head count for people they like.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by tempsy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:16PM (#32928228)
>Among some Meta employees, the process of reapplying for jobs within a limited window internally is known as a sort of human-resources purgatory they call the “30 Day List.”

I mean from the article it’s pretty clear giving employees a month to find a new job internally is more like Hunger Games than some guarantee you will be successful. It sounds like a way for companies to not have to admit they are doing layoffs.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by ras3022 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:26PM (#32928365)
Especially as it's not obvious how much headcount the other teams have.

i.e. giving not-cut (the profitable/successful) teams a 1% headcount increase and cutting 10% of total staff is roughly equivalent to a 9% layoff.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by zerkten on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:40PM (#32928544)
Other teams may be able to add headcount, but my experience with big companies is that the organization wants to manage the number of tenured people, and people who are now sitting in non-terminal levels. Given how many people externally are competing for spots there is less of an incentive to prioritize internal people. I don't necessarily agree with this, but you have to be aware of all the stakeholders perspectives.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by disgruntledphd2 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:15PM (#32930047)
Based on my experience at FB, they way prefer to get internal transfers as they require less ramping up time. It's often not worth changing orgs though, as your equity doesn't get reset so you may end up with much less than a new hire
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by xracy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @06:37PM (#32932509)
> Very clear the market has now negatively reacted to high operating expenses that largely stem from excessive headcount.

Are you saying that because stock prices are dropping that the market has reacted to excessive headcount?

Cause I think a better explanation for that, is that in the past 2 years we've had inflation, and that was reflected in the profits of the companies for 2020-21, and now that the fed is lowering interest rates, we're expecting that inflation to stop, and so that's affecting the stock market.

This seems to have very little to do with these companies business models, and everything to do with them failing to recognize that their profit changes are readily explained by inflation/deflation. Which seems to be a better explanation of what the markets are reacting to.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by water-your-self on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:07PM (#32932800)
Yeah but overfitting is still a better strategy, for a number of reasons. Match your competition. Equity grants on the uphill, reduce them on the downhill.

What if the market goes up and stays up? Fed does or doesnt hike rates? Do you really want to play hiring catch up when everyone else has a 2 year head start?

Also, your board of directors doesn't give a shit about the reason, they only care what is being done in response.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by xracy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:52PM (#32933577)
I disagree that overfitting is a better strategy. Because if you recognize why things are happening are unrelated to profit/work at the moment you can accept that you're going to have losses regardless, and try and plan past that in the long term. Which should lead to better profits when you're not entirely dependent on the federal reserve.

In particular, hiring benefits don't take effect immediately, it's going to be a while before productivity is realized from the new hires. So it is very short-sighted to freeze that before an economic downturn, when you want new forms of revenue and innovation to allow you to outlast the competition and grow a business into something that will become the "next big thing".

Also, as a commentary, it makes it more clear that your stock is actually stable, because the only thing that's really changed is inflation and catch up to reality from the fed turning off the money hose.

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by madeofpalk on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @01:58PM (#32928762)
> or on a non-revenue generating team

Apart from Search and AdSense, What team at Google isn't a non-revenue generating team?

Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by sudosysgen on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:01PM (#32928822)
GCP, GSuite, Google Play Services/Android, Pixel, YouTube, Maps, off the top of my head.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by danellis on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:25PM (#32929166)
Presumably also Nest and Fi.
Re:Meta and Google are cutting staff by dasil003 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:02PM (#32928824)
Off the top of my head: Workspace, GCP, Android

Maybe they are not strictly black in the P&L sense, but they are strategic revenue-generating business priorities.