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Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by colejohnson66 on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:53AM (#32899164)
Unicode's mission is to make every document "roundtrip-able". Even if a character is only used once, it should be possible to save a plaintext version of the containing document without losing any information. Roughly, I should be able to put a transcription of that one translation from the 1400s on Wikisource without using images.

You may disagree with me, and that's fine, but it doesn't change Unicode's mission. Besides, there's room for 1,112,064 codepoints[a], and only 149,146 are in use. It's predicted we'll never use it up, so what harm is there in one codepoint no one will ever need?

[a]: U+10'FFFF max; it used to be U+FFFF'FFFF, but UTF-16 and surrogates ruined that

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by tzs on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:23PM (#32903420)
If that was once its mission, it was clearly abandoned long ago. They rejected Klingon characters on the grounds that it has low usage for communication, and that many of the people who do communicate in Klingon use a latinized form.

ꙮ seems to just be a fancy way of writing О. I haven't seen anything that says it has a different meaning. The arguments for excluding Klingon seem to apply even more so to ꙮ.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by mananaysiempre on Monday September 19, 2022 @06:34PM (#32905065)
If you look through the old mailing list postings, the oft-left-implicit problem with Klingon (as well as Tengwar, Everson’s [EDIT: misspelling] pet project) is that it may get people into legal trouble (even though in a reasonable world it shouldn’t be able to). So in the unofficial CSUR / UCSUR they remain.

A weird solitary character from the 1400s isn’t subject to that, and even if it’s a mistake it’s probably not worth breaking compatibility at this point (I think the last such break with code points genuinely changing meanings was to repair a mistaken CJK unification some time in the 00s, and the Consortium may even have tied its own hands in that regard with the ever-more-strict stability policies).

Similarly, for example, old ISO keyboard symbols (the ⌫ for erase backwards, but also a ton of virtually unused ones) were thrown in indiscriminately at the beginning of the project when attempting to cover every existing encoding, but when the ISO decided to extend the repertoire they were told to kindly provide examples of running-text (not iconic) usage in a non-member-body-controlled publication. (Crickets. The ISO keyboard input model itself only vaguely corresponds to how input methods for QWERTY-adjacent keyboards work in existing systems—as an attempt at rationalization, it seems to mostly be a failed one.)

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by lifthrasiir on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:13PM (#32905431)
[EDIT: Removed a section about the now-fixed typo]

> I think the last such break with code points genuinely changing meanings was to repair a mistaken CJK unification some time in the 00s, and the Consortium may even have tied its own hands in that regard with the ever-more-strict stability policies[.]

Not exactly, the last break happened between Unicode 1.1 and 2.0 and the new CJK Unified Ideographs Extension A block still contains unified characters. The main reason for break was that both Hangul and CJK(V) ideographs required tons of additional code points and it became clear that 16-bit code space is dangerously insufficient; by 1.1 there was only a single big block of unassigned code points from U+A000 to U+E7FF (18,432 total), and there were 4,516 and 6,582 new Hangul and CJK(V) ideographs in 2.0 (11,098 total).

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by bobsmooth on Monday September 19, 2022 @06:40PM (#32905131)
Unless it's legitimately someone's native tongue, conlangs shouldn't be in unicode. If there are kids out there that are native Klingon speakers, then you can make the argument it should be included.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by thfuran on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:57PM (#32905804)
I think it makes way more sense to put a conlang in Unicode than it does a peculiar stylistic flourish only ever applied once to a single letter in a single document. If that belongs in Unicode, why not every bit of marginalia ever doodled and every uniquely adorned drop cap / initial letter?
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by hoseja on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @04:12AM (#32909011)
There is a smattering of missionary-made alphabets that have way less usage than some conlangs. Why are they legitimate but conlangs aren't?
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by brokensegue on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:36PM (#32907380)
so all you need is one crazy parent? shouldn't be too hard to find
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by Someone on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @02:07AM (#32908220)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1229808/Linguist-re... (2009):

“A linguist has revealed he talked only in Klingon to his son for the first three years of his life to find out if he could learn to speak the 'language'.

[…]

Now 13, Speers' son does not speak Klingon at all.”

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by koboll on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:50PM (#32900792)
Okay, let's take a look at the context where the multiocular o was used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O

I see that near it, there is an ef (Ф) with a very tall stem.

Why should that not be included as a standard unicode character? Surely it is used more often than the multiocular o.

You may say "it's a decorative flourish", which is of course true, but so is the multiocular o. Should we allow every conceivable decorative flourish into unicode? What is the standard for where flourishes become distinct characters?

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by bityard on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:12AM (#32899441)
Today, I wrote a document by hand containing a new symbol that only looks like genitalia if you squint really hard. Where do I apply to have it included in unicode so that it can be digitized properly?
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by lucumo on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:05PM (#32900185)
Rule-lawyering wise-asses try to mess with many policies. It's rarely a sensible indictment of a policy, nor is it very effective. Anyone dealing with such people just ignores them.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by fluoridation on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:19PM (#32900386)
What's the criterion that includes the document in the tweet, but excludes the document referenced by the GP?
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by bzxcvbn on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:20PM (#32901179)
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by fluoridation on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:33PM (#32901354)
I don't see any anything on the inclusion of symbols that are not icons, such as U+A66E, or the symbol proposed by bityard.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by koala_man on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:57AM (#32900068)
Can you reuse 𓂸 or 𓂺?
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by 0xbadcafebee on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:46PM (#32900729)
And for years we've just been using eggplants!
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by GekkePrutser on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @11:52AM (#32913451)
Lol I never knew those existed. Apparently they're egyption hieroglyphs but it really makes me wonder the meanings of them now :)

I also wonder how these didn't become insanely popular overnight, like the famous eggplant.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by 411111111111111 on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:49PM (#32900774)
( ノ ≧ ∇ ≦ ) ノ ミ ┻ ━ ┻

〜 ( ꒪ ꒳ ꒪ ) 〜

( ༎ຶ ෴ ༎ຶ )

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by Akronymus on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:31AM (#32922213)
Reuse rectangle or rectangle? (Seems to not render for me, win 10, chrome)
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by bawolff on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:29PM (#32905574)
Given that “𓂸” (U+130B8) is already in unicode (and related 𓂹,𓂺) pretty sure the only problem is you made it up, not that it looks like genitilia
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by kadoban on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:51PM (#32901580)
For as inclusive as that mission is, it seems weird to me how limited in certain areas unicode is. For instance, people use peach emoji since there isn't one for butt, eggplant since there's no penis, etc.

This doesn't contradict the stated goal exactly, but it seems against the spirit of it at least.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by yakireev on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:58PM (#32901663)
One could argue that emoji should have never been added to Unicode in the first place. Peaches and butts are images, pictures, illustrations, whatever - but they are not characters. There's no writing system which has a colored drawing of a peach as a character.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by PeterisP on Monday September 19, 2022 @05:06PM (#32903955)
Yes there is - a widely used character set (when Unicode talks about "writing systems" it explicitly includes all the computer character sets used in practice pre-unicode) used by japanese 'featurephones' had emoji characters, so in order to be able to include that character set in unicode, unicode had to add emoji.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by squeaky-clean on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:45PM (#32905691)
They're sort of neither. The peach emoji will render differently on iOS, Android, Windows. And I'm sure emoji-replacement packs are possible on Windows and Android (even though it's also guaranteed to be a virus).

So a peach emoji is not the same thing as the iOS peach-emoji-image. Similar to how changing my font doesn't change the actual characters.

I don't think including emojis was a great idea, but now that it's happened and people everywhere use them, emoji have become characters. I agree with your point, but it's already happened and so now there's not really any going back.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by bzxcvbn on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:58PM (#32903869)
Yes there is. We're using it right now. Even linguists are studying the use of emoji today.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by eternityforest on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:24PM (#32903432)
But that doesn't change the fact that most people use them snd like them, and there is not much technical disruption. They just chose practicality over purity.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by bawolff on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:32PM (#32905595)
Not only that - people use them in textual communication the way letters traditionally are used. There is probably a lot better argument for emoiji than a lot of other things in unicode (but it is a slippery slope)
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by yakireev on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:50PM (#32903789)
Most people (me included) like funny cat videos and send funny cat videos. Shall we include some to Unicode?

I mean, this ship has long sailed, but that was a mistake nevertheless. Not everything has to be a unicode character.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by kadoban on Monday September 19, 2022 @08:19PM (#32905967)
If there were specific funny cat videos that were culturally relevent, maybe.

For example I could see there being an emoji for keyboard cat.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by eternityforest on Monday September 19, 2022 @09:10PM (#32906402)
That wouldn't be practical. It would make fonts too big, and videos aren't a thing that goes inline in text.

However, I could totally see some kind of open source GIF library of a few hundred meme videos and pictures, to standardize the "Reply with a GIF" thing in some P2P chat ecosystem, and maybe it could have a new URL scheme for referring to OpenMemes images.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by hoseja on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @04:16AM (#32909033)
You can have entire sentences constructed out of emoji.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by vcxy on Monday September 19, 2022 @05:55PM (#32904607)
I tried to reply with just a unicode penis but that got flagged immediately, so I'll be more substantial and leave out the actual penis. It appears in Egyptian hieroglyphs, so actually there is a penis included in unicode.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by kadoban on Monday September 19, 2022 @08:25PM (#32906022)
That's true, good call. I feel like there should be one without the context of Egyptian hieroglphys though, though I'm not exactly sure how that kind of thing works in unicode.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @06:03AM (#32909795)
I thought peach was a vulva. What's the emoji for a vulva then?

Don't tell me Presidents of the United States' song "Peaches" was about butts!?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaches_(The_Presidents_of_the...

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by kadoban on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @09:14AM (#32911201)
I'm not sure if there is one. Or maybe it's used for both, depending on context/community?

The song was definitely a vaginal reference as far as I ever knew.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by GekkePrutser on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @11:45AM (#32913342)
> For instance, people use peach emoji since there isn't one for butt, eggplant since there's no penis, etc.

Personally I think there should be, actually. There's all these other body parts but these are left out. Emoji is almost becoming a language and the good thing is that everyone can understand them, regardless of language. For example I could imagine these could be very useful in an international medical setting. Or for sexting, obviously, we can pretend that's not a thing but that's a bit too Victorian for me.

Of course they're not appropriate in some settings but so are many words.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by Akronymus on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:34AM (#32922233)
I REALLY don't like that emojis are beholden to companies. For example, when the emoji for a gun was changed from a pistol to a squirtgun on many platforms, it changed the meaning of its use by a lot. You could argue that it is a good thing, but I see it as a pretty bad direction to go into.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by djur on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:05AM (#32899346)
Unicode doesn't have a character for every illuminated initial, nor should it. I'm not clear on why this character should be considered any differently.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by skyyler on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:02PM (#32900133)
http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3194.pdf

It was introduced with other "ocular O"s which are seemingly more commonly used than this one.

It's not quite an illuminated initial.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by akavel on Monday September 19, 2022 @06:39PM (#32905122)
Wow, this is probably the most actually useful and interesting comment in this whole discussion, thanks! For anyone interested, the most relevant quotes from the document are in particular:

"This document requests the addition of a number of Cyrillic characters to be added to the UCS. It also requests clarification in the Unicode Standard of four existing characters. This is a large proposal. While all of the characters are either Cyrillic characters (plus a couple which are used with the Cyrillic script), they are used by different communities. Some are used for non-Slavic minority languages and others are used for early Slavic philology and linguistics, while others are used in more recent ecclesiastical contexts. We considered the possibility of dividing the proposal into several proposals, but since this proposal involves changes to glyphs in the main Cyrillic block, adds a character to the main Cyrillic block, adds 16 characters to the Cyrillic Supplement block, adds 10 characters to the new Cyrillic Extended-A block currently under ballot, creates two entirely new Cyrillic blocks with 55 and 26 characters respectively, as well as adding two characters to the Supplementary Punctuation block, it seemed best for reviewers to keep everything together in one document.

(...)

MONOCULAR O Ꙩꙩ, BINOCULAR O Ꙫꙫ, DOUBLE MONOCULAR O Ꙭꙭ, and MULTIOCULAR O ꙮ are used in words which are based on the root for ‘eye’. The first is used when the wordform is singular, as ꙩкꙩ; the second and third are used in the root for ‘eye’ when the wordform is dual, as ꙫчи, ꙭчи; and the last in the epithet ‘many-eyed’ as in серафими многоꙮчитїй ‘many-eyed seraphim’. It has no upper-case form. See Figures 34, 41, 42, 55."

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by prmoustache on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:52AM (#32908140)
Literally everyone in choir: we have boooobs!
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by j-bos on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:46AM (#32899929)
Because it's already been added to unicode. Now it's not a question of whether or not to add, rather to remove, and unicode almost by definition does not remove.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by thayne on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:47PM (#32900757)
Unicode does have deprecated code points though. Not that I necessarily think making this character deprecated makes sense.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by lmm on Monday September 19, 2022 @06:29PM (#32904997)
Meanwhile one still can't roundtrip regular Japanese without some kind of funky out-of-band signalling. By itself this kind of thing is harmless, but it speaks to poor prioritization from Unicode.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by lifthrasiir on Monday September 19, 2022 @08:38PM (#32906124)
This is incorrect. I think you defined round-trip as something else, but some character set A providing a round-trip compatibility with other set B means that B can be converted to A and back to B without a loss. And it is one of Unicode's explicit goals to provide a round-trip compatibility with major encodings including Japanese ones.

Han unification only means that when you convert Japanese encodings (B) to Unicode (A), it is not distinguishable from non-Japanese encodings converted to Unicode. This means that the Unicode text doesn't always follow domestic conventions without out-of-band signaling or IVD or so. But if you know that the text was converted from a particular encoding, you can perfectly recover the original text encoded in that encoding.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by lmm on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:00PM (#32907157)
By that logic any 8-byte encoding is round-trip compatible with all encodings, since however bad the mojibake is, if you know what the original encoding was then you can always just convert back to that.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by lifthrasiir on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:43PM (#32907418)
Yes, but only under a very wrecked hypothetical definition of "conversion".
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by josefx on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @06:06AM (#32909812)
To be fair they wanted to keep everything representable with 16 bits and that wasn't going to happen without the Han-unification. The mess when everything still had to move to a 32 bit representation has been far reaching, many programming languages went from exposing code points atomically as "char" to some half encoded nonsense value that just happens to also be a valid standalone value in UTF-16 most of the time and a source of bugs when you least expect it.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by umanwizard on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:56PM (#32905793)
Why can’t it round-trip Japanese?
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by lmm on Monday September 19, 2022 @08:13PM (#32905930)
"Han Unification" - in Unicode many Japanese characters are represented as Chinese characters that look different (and subjectively ugly). The Unicode consortium's answer is that you're supposed to use a different font or something when displaying Japanese, which is pretty unsatisfying (e.g. if you want to have a block of text that contains both Japanese and Chinese, you can't represent that as just a Unicode string, it has to be some kind of rope of segments with their own fonts, at which point frankly you might as well just go back to bytes-with-encoding which at least breaks very clearly and visibly if you get it wrong).
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by kevin_thibedeau on Monday September 19, 2022 @09:24PM (#32906497)
You can use the deprecated language tag control codes to distinguish unified code points. It is unlikely to be well supported but it is there.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by shp0ngle on Monday September 19, 2022 @06:19PM (#32904895)
The thing is, this is just a decorative way to write “o”. It’s not a specific letter by any definition.

I can’t speak of other letters that were added in the same batch in 2007. Some of them seam meaningful, I donno, I don’t speak old church slavonic (although I am told it sounds like Croatian, which I understand a little)

http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3194.pdf

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by sloonz on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @08:07AM (#32910574)
> so what harm is there in one codepoint no one will ever need?

Fonts bloat (do you want a font with 1 million characters in it ? I don’t. Do you want to have to install 1000 fonts having 1000 characters each to be sure to cover all the Unicode table ? I don't).

Lots of issues for everyday programmers (how do you handle weird unicode characters in your validation code ?) potentially leading to security issues (bypassing validation rules by close-but-different characters, phishing…)

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by bhk on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:13PM (#32901107)
Cataloging every doodle ever drawn inline with text by anyone at any time in history would exhaust any finite set of code points.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by layer8 on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:05PM (#32901001)
> Unicode's mission is to make every document "roundtrip-able".

Only for characters from existing coded character sets.

Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by IshKebab on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @11:18AM (#32912892)
That isn't Unicode's mission though. To get new characters added you have to show that people use it or would use it if it were available.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by umanwizard on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:53PM (#32905767)
The artist Prince changed his stage name to an unpronounceable symbol for a few years. It appears in more than one document. Should it be added to Unicode?
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by caf on Monday September 19, 2022 @08:23PM (#32906001)
Probably. Maybe you can propose it.
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by rhplus on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @09:43AM (#32911554)
By the original reasoning, shouldn’t every fancy illuminated character from medieval manuscripts get its own codepoint?
Re:Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated by modzu on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:08PM (#32900234)
why isnt the artist formerly known as prince in unicode?