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Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by samwillis on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @07:41AM (#32749298)
I really like the concept of this, it's basically a step further on from SIPs (structural insulated panels) by having standard composable blocks. The things I think are particularly good:

- Standardising on screw pile foundations. Standard concrete foundations are often be about 30% of the build cost, with the quantity of earth removed and cement used it's a massive part of the carbon footprint of a home. For a "light weight" timber construction, screw piles are the future.

- Having services recesses and notches built into the panels, and there is no need to batten the internal walls for boarding. this will increase the speed of construction significantly.

- Being an "Open" standard allows any timber frame or prefab construction company to adopt it.

My one concern (I wouldn't go as far as criticism) is that the panels have a somewhat complex manufacturing process by having to be CNC machined. Realisticly they almost always will be, but I would have liked to see the panels designed to be constructed a little more simply - you will always have to make changes on site.

I wander why they went with ply over OSB, they have similar structural properties but OSB can be cheeper.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by forgetfreeman on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @09:42AM (#32750481)
Mold abatement & home restoration contractor here. OSB should not be considered code-compliant material, full-stop. Imagine your home has been constructed with slabs of sponge that have are purpose-engineered to provide optimal growing conditions for fungi when moisture is introduced. Now consider that over the lifetime of a structure some combination of exterior cladding failure, roof leaks, ground moisture issues, and plumbing fails are not only likely, but basically guaranteed.

My biggest concern with this system is given this system's "tightness" to water vapor (similar to SIPs), all of the same issues with mold and related air quality are inherited. If structures don't breathe they rot. i

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @09:55AM (#32750684)
All excellent points, and why moisture vapour transmission direction/rate must be taken into account during a build. If you live somewhere where AC is the primary mode of interior conditioning, you will build to where the AC will pull moisture in from the structure for removal via the condensate line. If you live somewhere not so tropics, you're going to build where the moisture is pulled out of the home by the natural environment.

Building sciences are both fun and fraught with peril. I'm somewhat excited and cautiously optimistic about Boxabl from a housing manufacturing perspective.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by signaturefish on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @10:10AM (#32750884)
It is indeed a concern, and I suspect that's why they're recommending any wikihous project include a full-house MVHR system (see About=>Product, the bent arrow near the middle of the image map). MVHR is the solution I've settled on for my house retrofit project - it should allow the house to breathe in a controlled manner, without leaking warm air in winter.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by throw0101c on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @11:46AM (#32752183)
> OSB should not be considered code-compliant material, full-stop.

OSB is a fine air barrier, and most water vapour volume happens through air leaks. Vapour diffusion tends to be a smaller percentage:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXXgjvOJcYI

The main place that vapour concentration really becomes a problem is at the highest point of the house (e.g., ridge):

* https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-i...

The main point is to not have your condensing surface on the inside of your structure:

* https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-t...

Which is why so many jurisdictions are encouraging / mandating external insulation. When the sheathing is the coldest surface, of course there's going to be condensation, but if it's the same temperature as the inside air how would moisture accumulate.

> If structures don't breathe they rot.

If structures don't dry they rot. There are plenty of of <1.0 ACH@50 structures that do not "breathe" that have no moisture/rot issues because they take care of water mechanically, e.g., ERV/HRV and (whole house) dehumidifiers.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIcrXut_EFA

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by forgetfreeman on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @12:32PM (#32752830)
OSB is absolutely a fine air barrier assuming <60% humidity at all times. That does not make it a sane choice for sheathing/flooring material given the likelihood of moisture ingress. Every form of seam sealant known to man bites it at some point due to thermal expansion cycles, uv damage, etc. and that's assuming perfect installation of all layers of the moisture control stack. It isn't even a good choice for cabinetry due to it's propensity to devolve into Nature Valley Granola when put in proximity to a sink, dishwasher, or refrigerator (if a cold water line is part of the install).

In theory vapor accumulation is only really problematic in the overhead plenum spaces. In actual practice (setting aside acute water ingress) 100% of the time moisture problems start in the crawl space and then spread to the plenum.

Yes absolutely it is possible to design complex interlocking systems that at least in theory both provide high efficiency sealed construction and control moisture. In practice the complexity of these systems is sufficient that even top-end contractors frequently run into issues that lead to full blown abatement projects. There is also the minor issue of what happens if all of these systems aren't subjected to aggressive inspection regimes and/or a structure goes a significant amount of time unoccupied. The one thing all of these super high-efficiency sealed systems have in common is they quite literally tear themselves apart if neglected or the power gets turned off for any meaningful amount of time.

The statement "If structures don't dry they rot" is absolutely true, but only in the context of traditional lumber products that are comparatively resistant to rot in the first place and are capable of weathering swell/shrink cycles without falling apart. Highly engineered products degrade aggressively just by getting damp in the first place as swelling wood fibers break down bonds with the adhesive that's holding the material together.

I absolutely stand by my original statement that OSB shouldn't be code-compliant and with the exception of shitty flat-pack furniture has no business anywhere in a home.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by wpietri on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @01:49PM (#32753775)
I appreciate all of your comments here, but let me just pause for a moment to appreciate the perfection of the name "Nature Valley Granola" for that failure mode. That's spot on for texture and appearance. And given the crumbly, dry vagueness that is a Nature Valley Granola bar, possibly for taste as well.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by throw0101c on Thursday September 08, 2022 @08:27AM (#32764509)
(I'm in Canada, which is generally a 'basement using' zone.)

> In theory vapor accumulation is only really problematic in the overhead plenum spaces. In actual practice (setting aside acute water ingress) 100% of the time moisture problems start in the crawl space and then spread to the plenum.

Which is a good argument for conditioned crawl spaces.

* https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/bareports/ba-0401-...

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by forgetfreeman on Thursday September 08, 2022 @09:35AM (#32765288)
No argument here. Sealed crawlspaces may be the best thing building science has brought to the industry in the last 30 years.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by bombcar on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @06:59PM (#32758320)
The reason OSB wins so much is that the average house is built to last just about as long as OSB does in normal conditions (even with water damage).

Shit is wack yo. Perfectly usable houses are remodeled all the time.

I hate OSB so much. And it no longer is that much cheaper than plywood, which still can die in water but at least doesn't die immediately.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by fhackenberger on Thursday September 08, 2022 @04:45AM (#32762984)
One aspect that's missing for me here is the toxicity of the glues used in OSB products. Compared to multi layer timer its massive amounts of glue being using in these OSB panels. Nothing you want in the room where you breathe at least 8 hours a day/night.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by throw0101c on Thursday September 08, 2022 @08:33AM (#32764568)
Plywood also uses glue:

* https://www.greenhomeguide.com/askapro/question/i-m-concerne...

* https://greenhomeguide.com/askapro/question/we-have-osb-that...

Unless you're using planks for siding and your flooring, you're going to have to use some kind of glued product product. Further your OSB is generally behind your drywall (sheet rock, gypsum) which can act as an air barrier.

Ideally you should have an HRV/ERV that exchanges the air in your dwelling constantly.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by turtlebits on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @12:29PM (#32752778)
OSB is fine with a proper WRB, vapor control and venting. Things like rainscreen/strapping under siding and roofing go a long way of letting your house dry out when water gets in.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by forgetfreeman on Friday September 16, 2022 @01:44AM (#32862531)
Sure it is, for the first year. Or the first five years. Or however long it takes for a caulk seam around a window or door to get sprung or a plumbing fitting somewhere to develop a drip. How long do you expect your home to last without major restoration work?

The fact that you have to cut that many backflips just to get the stuff to work should tell you something. Once it finally does get wet all hell breaks loose because OSB cannot tolerate wetting cycles in the same way plywood can.

If you're ever curious about just how big the gap in durability is here's a free demonstration: next time you see a new house going up stop by after the framing crew has the place sheathed and ask for a small scrap of OSB sheathing and plywood they have sitting in the scrap pile. Take both home and let them sit out in the yard for six months. The plywood will warp a bit, and it might discolor. The OSB will disintegrate unless you live in a desert.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by hedgehog on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @11:19AM (#32751792)
Do you see that in modern construction? As long as there is adequate insulation and the vapor retarding layer is in the right place (per code) the OSB shouldn't ever be more than damp for any extended amount of time.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by forgetfreeman on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @01:17PM (#32753402)
I've seen catastrophic moisture damage in every form of home construction utilized in North America from the 1850s to present day. Anecdotally the most common failure modes break down roughly thus:

1850s-1960s: Termite damage followed by rot. This time frame is notable for ready availability of dense, tightly grained building materials. Lumber from this time period shrugs off all but the most egregious wetting cycles. So what happens is high humidity attracts termites which break down the structure. This in turn gives rot a plate to establish a foothold and spread (slowly).

1970s-1990s: This period is notable for a steady decline in quality of building materials and introduction of first and second generation engineered products. First-to-market siding products, condensation issues due to the aluminum craze in the 80s, and material adhesives edging out toward the end of their life expectancy all contribute to problems with mold/rot. Looser grained building materials also mean that when a problem is present it will quickly spread to larger areas of the structure than older materials would permit under similar conditions.

2000-2010: Easily the absolute nadir of home building in the US. The industry saw a massive influx of "budget" engineered materials, with no substantive changes to code to address the deficiencies of these materials. My personal favorite from this era include OSB siding that turned into a kitchen sponge whenever the paint layer was breached.

2010-present: same as it ever was. The market is still flooded with engineered materials that have a fraction of the life expectancy of more traditional materials. Building codes have largely caught up with the obvious limitations of these materials, however now the biggest issue is as a nation we are short two full generations of trained craftspeople in the construction industry and as such installation errors are rampant. This leads to more and bigger issues, bigger abatement projects, and in significantly newer homes. Case in point: a pinhole leak in a caulk seam on a window surround that resulted in all of the structural members surrounding that window, the wall cladding, the sill beam, a section of the floor, and several joists rotting out in short order. Root cause: didn't use plywood. Engineered sheathing acted like an enormous sponge both retaining and broadcasting moisture to all of the surrounding materials.

So yeah, you're not wrong inasmuch as according to theory and per code it is within the realm of possibility to use these construction methods and materials successfully. In practice, however, the least competent subcontractor on any given jobsite presents a hard ceiling to what one can get away with. You design a fault-intolerant system that has any flavor of complexity to it's installation and odds are good someone's going to screw something up. The Achilles Heel of modern vapor tight building systems is the fact that houses leak. Either through incompetence during the initial build or breakdown of materials over time all houses leak. Whereas older construction methods would tolerate this to varying degrees, newer systems do not.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by wpietri on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @01:51PM (#32753800)
This is fascinating stuff. So what would you do if you were building a house today?
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by forgetfreeman on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @04:22PM (#32756251)
Assuming I was building in the Southeast where I live, that someone handed me a blank check, and without drilling down to specific products?

- Hardwood timber framing

- Stone or masonry curtain wall from the foundation to the bottom of the window sills.

- Fully sealed crawlspace with inline registers broadcasting conditioned air into the space

- Insulate the curtain wall instead of the interstitial space between floor joists

- Standard soffit-to-peak venting in the attic space

- Two layers of plywood subfloor separated by a layer of tar paper

- Double layered sheetrock on all interior walls

- Wall-to-wall sheet vinyl floor treatments in all of the rooms where water is a thing.

- 3/4" hardwood flooring everywhere water isn't a thing.

- Passive/active solar combo meal on the roof to offset any efficiency losses incurred by "loose" construction methods

- Temperature & humidity sensors in the crawl space & plenum

- Wood window frames and sills. Modern plastic window frames and sills are excellent at hiding a problem until it's turned into a $50k project (see also: aluminum siding). By comparsion wood trim acts as a bellwether. I'd much rather have to scrape, recaulk, and paint a window than be looking at deconstructing an exterior wall that's rotted to the foundation.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by saeranv on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @09:00PM (#32759649)
> Wall-to-wall sheet vinyl floor treatments in all of the rooms where water is a thing.

Doesn't this risk any water that does end up getting in, to accumulate and cause more damage over time since there's no route for it to dry out?

I was always taught in my building science courses to put the water/air/vapour control layer inside the wall, before the insulation, so vapour can dry out from both sides.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by forgetfreeman on Thursday September 08, 2022 @01:52AM (#32761690)
Pretty much, yeah, but it just never becomes an issue. Folks have been using wall to wall impermeable floor treatments (hello linoleum) in kitchens and bathrooms since the 1870s so the stuff has a pretty well established track record. Vapor barrier under the house passively blocks ground moisture, conditioning systems in the crawlspace actively prevent moisture buildup, and the floor treatment rejects both vapor and spills. In practice you'll end up renoing the floor treatment decades before any problems crop up.

If you really want to rot a floor though the absolute best A+ gold star method for doing so is adding a gas log fireplace with surround. I had a house a couple years ago that had moisture from the flue pooling inside the surround and under the unit. Rotted through 3/4" red oak hardwood flooring, 2 layers of 3/4" plywood, and bit off the top 4" of the 2x8 joists under the unit. Interior space was a solid sheet of black mold. That was one of those bag-the-room negative air pressure break-out-the-space-suits jobs. Six months later I was on a job where condensation off another gas log flue pooled inside a surround and got into the OSB cladding, then wicked 9' straight up. Only time I've ever seen cedar siding actually rot. We ended up having to cut the entire fireplace surround and a portion of the roof off the side of the house and rebuild it studs and all. Never a dull moment I tell ya.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by saeranv on Thursday September 08, 2022 @12:52PM (#32768242)
Cool, fascinating to get such detailed insights from actual practise.

> ... and the floor treatment rejects both vapor and spills.

That's a good point I didn't consider. Drying out the inner surface works well for interior vapour that gets into the enclosure, but won't handle spills, or standing water well.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by hedgehog on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @04:44PM (#32756564)
Fascinating, I understand most of it but why vented attic vs conditioned?
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by forgetfreeman on Thursday September 08, 2022 @01:32AM (#32761562)
Simplicity. Sealed crawlspace prevents the plenum from ingesting ground moisture, so as long the roof is maintained that space shouldn't see any significant issues at any point in the next century.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by wpietri on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @10:53PM (#32760554)
Thanks! Very interesting.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by kupfer on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @07:53AM (#32749409)
From their FAQs:

>Which material is better, ply or OSB?

>Ply is lighter and generally better structurally but more expensive. OSB is cheaper but heavier. With the recent research on WikiHouse Skylark we did test both materials, but in terms of the full spanning floor beams it’s clear ply offers advantages in terms of strength but also because it’s lighter it’s easier to move and carry. A hybrid approach is also a possibility.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by LegitShady on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @02:42PM (#32754582)
He's talking about the moisture resistance property of plywood over OSB. OSB absorbs moisture readily and turns into mush.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by the_other on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @09:59AM (#32750739)
> Realisticly they almost always will be, but I would have liked to see the panels designed to be constructed a little more simply - you will always have to make changes on site.

I feel this way about the current trend in plant-based meat replacements. I’ll trust the hype about lower carbon footprint, but they take food production further into industrialisation and profit motive territory which was, in part, how we got into this environmental crisis in the first place.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by Jeff_Brown on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @10:11AM (#32750888)
I live in Colombia, where ag tech is a lot farther behind. The profit motive for farmers here is as strong as anywhere. They wouldn't farm if it wasn't for the money. But the lack of industrialización means that more people are invested in the activity, producing less output, and living in poverty.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by merlinran on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @12:47PM (#32753017)
Industrialized agriculture would push most people out of land (no longer need that many people), and if the people can't find alternative for living they would be even poorer. If there are better alternatives, peasant farmers will chase them anyway.

There are also better ways for agriculture which can regenerate soil, maintain biodiversity while at the same time harvest more.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by Jeff_Brown on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @01:23PM (#32753459)
> Industrialized agriculture would push most people out of land (no longer need that many people), and if the people can't find alternative for living they would be even poorer.

The places where industrial agriculture has taken off, that seems not to be the story. Grandparents in China are thrilled to see their children working city jobs. It's a hard life still, but much easier than they had.

> regenerate soil, maintain biodiversity while at the same time harvest more.

I very much want those things. And corporations do sometimes make stupid decisions. But it's hard for me to believe there are such free lunches on a large scale. If there were, some enterprising soul ought to go start a business exploiting them, make a killing, put Monsanto out of business, etc.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @03:06PM (#32754997)
biodiversity doesnt make you money

Also there are many potential biotech revolutions - like China developing rice that can use salt water - if our crops could use seawater like the mangroves, that wouod be huge.

Another massive thing, is perrenial crops - meaning you dont have to plant them every year. There are perrenial cousins of our staple foods like wheat, but firstly they are harder to automatically harvest/manage, secondly they do not benefit from thousands of years of selective breeding. So we gave to invest massive amounts of money to ger their yields up, and even if you do, there is no guarantee consumers will eat them - they taste a bit different

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by Jeff_Brown on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @04:34PM (#32756429)
If they're productive enough, they'll be cheap enough that consumers will accept a little taste difference.

Fun fact: Italians hated tomatoes for centuries.

https://lithub.com/unhealthy-smelly-and-strange-why-italians...

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by ClumsyPilot on Thursday September 08, 2022 @09:42AM (#32765389)
You are talking a muti-billion investment that will take decades to yield fruit, that people might hate the taste for for centuries?

When most corporate leaders don't care what happens 2 years from now?

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by baggy_trough on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @12:38PM (#32752895)
How do plant-based meats take food production "further into .. profit motive territory"?
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by the_other on Friday September 09, 2022 @08:59AM (#32778603)
Try making them at home.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by baggy_trough on Friday September 09, 2022 @12:08PM (#32780973)
I can't make a cow at home either, or an avocado.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by hpkuarg on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @12:35PM (#32752865)
One man's environmental crisis is another man being lifted out of crushing poverty by the abundant energy and wealth produced by that same industrialization and profit motive.

Unless you think cavemen shouldn't have burned sticks for warmth out of concern for CO2 emissions, the way out for humanity will be through (further technological gains enabling more energy expended per capita, hopefully cleanly), not backwards.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by the_other on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:08AM (#32778715)
> One man's environmental crisis is another man being lifted out of crushing poverty by the abundant energy and wealth produced by that same industrialization and profit motive.

The problem with that is it's only one man that gets the benefit.

Yes, I'm twisting your words a bit. The point I'm making is that these profit motives tend towards capital hoarding by individuals. _That_ process tends towards selfish decision making where the only long-term benefit is the individual and their family, often at the cost of short and long term damage or hinderance to other people and the environment. I confess I make many such decisions myself, but it's very hard not within our current economic system.

I'm not arguing for a return to some imaginary glory projected onto images from the past at all. I'm trying to feel out ideas for future systems more of us can engage with comfortably, which don't promote the double hit of individual-focused power imbalances and environmental damage.

Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by wizofaus on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @03:17PM (#32755229)
Burning sticks isn't increasing the amount of carbon in the natural cycle (unlike digging up fossil fuels and burning them). Though obviously if enough people burn them faster than nature can regrow them it's still a problem, such that 8 billion of us returning to trees as our primary source of fuel would be pretty catastrophic.
Re:WikiHouse – Open source, modular, wood based, zero carbon... by nemo44x on Wednesday September 07, 2022 @11:59AM (#32752371)
OSB is a really risky thing to use, especially in environments (like England) that are constantly damp. One leak and the panel is ruined. Plywood can dry out and retain its structural integrity. Plywood is generally considered the better material for home construction for all uses, walls, roofs, subfloors. I think the majority of homes are built with OSB today and I consider it the most glaring sign that the construction is cheap and to be avoided.