My background is a coding bootcamp + relentless up-skilling and self-directed learning (with the help of some mentors), plus a healthy side of ADHD/spectrum issues, including, best of all, crippling social anxiety.
I cannot tell you in words how astounding it is to go from a full stack dev lead, to being reduced to failing junior-level code interviews because my brain just leaves the chat in the middle of most interactions with new people, let alone interactions involving cognitive effort/hazing.
You matter and the fact we have to spin our wheels on this grindstone does not change that.
(Have been on multiple different anti anxiety / depression meds, as well as a few anti seizure meds too fwiw.)
Adderall would make me super energetic for hours. Crazy chattt. Then I would be really focused for a for a couple hours. Then it would wear off and I would be drained. After a few weeks I started having horrific burning pain throughout body. Extended release is supposed to be better.
I do much better on other Medication. Kids do great on them. One is best on concerta. Other does better on vyvanse. My whole family is crazy strong ADHD. I prefer concerta. Vvyanze initially made me crazy sad. When I tried it again a year later it didn’t do that.
The crap you are going through is not fair, this entire process is not fair, but who the fuck cares - you will get this.
Do NOT let this fucking industry joke of an interview process harm you man. Seriously. It really is not you - its them.
most people find one of the most high paying jobs they can, then adjust their lifestyle to that income, then if they miss the mark ('lowball offer') they have to keep looking.
lifestyle regression is exceptionally hard for humans, especially if your friends/neighbors don't have to go through the same thing (e.g. there's no war raging in your country).
the best thing to do would be to keep your spend way below your means. this maximizes your options and gives you choice. but who does that?
One of my family members’ 12 year old son suddenly developed a health issue. His dad is worth at least 3M, and was looking to retire in his 40s. But the medical bills are insane, he can’t retire anytime soon, as most of the bills (tens of thousands a month) are being paid by the good insurance his employer gives him.
I have always spent much less than what I make (I don’t even have a bed, I happily sleep on the floor on a sleeping bag). But I also haven’t gotten any raise the last few years, while my rent (for the same apartment) has gone up 20% in the last 4 years. So has my other basic expense like phone bill (same phone, same carrier, same plan), internet etc.
There is a reason people spend long hours working because the alternative is worse.
The most sensible thing to do while one is young is to live frugally, but also earn as much as you can and save.
Then your life can be chaotic, messy, stressful, and you lose much freedom for many years! But on the plus side you learn to sacrifice everything you’ve done and earned for the good of children who don’t even know how to appreciate it!
Kids just happen to be the easiest way to force yourself to stop living for yourself.
My spouse and I have household income around the median for the area, and through a combination of discipline and good luck have managed to keep expenses very low.
It's not a life of depravation. We take nice vacations and buy the things we want, but we have to be careful not to want things like fancy cars or elaborate remodels. These seem like very unimportant things to forego when you stand to gain freedom from monetary worry.
And we enjoy our life, we rent (luckily not too expensive) and can do what we want. Of course we do not play the traditional "show off your nice stuff" game the society tries to force us into, but for us happiness is time well spent, not accumulated stuff.
Many do. The FIRE movement shows this.
Happiness is all about your expectations and who you compare yourself with. I try my best to compare myself with myself 1 year ago instead of random strangers. It makes me focus on what I can actually control (my own actions) instead of things I can’t control (the actions of others).
If you can’t help comparing yourself with your neighbours and feel “poor” where you live then moved to a place where you are “rich” compared with the neighbours. It will do wonders for your happiness.
The non-team thing is common but they do it to bring “objectivity” to the process and since it’s leetcode or system design questions, it usually doesn’t matter unless you’re applying for a highly specialized role.
I can speak for google and Amazon - you might not even apply for a specific team till you’re in, and do that afterwards. Facebook also did team match post boot camp.
Hell, they admitted as much a few years ago... and claimed they were going to try to be better.
Needless to say I was pissed.
He went on a Google interview, and they said he could solve a problem in the language of his choice. They gave him the assignment and left the room. Since we were at Apple at the time, he was coding daily in Objective-C. So he solved the problem in that.
Despite having said "use any language," the guy came back and said, "Oh, not THAT one."
And that's not even covering the douchebaggery that reportedly occurs once you work there. Another trusted friend, who worked there for years, reported being forced to rank coworkers with a graphical tool that shows pictures of them... and requires you to move them up or down on the screen to put some above others. It makes it impossible for you to put people on an equal level.
This is not from someone who makes stuff up, not to mention that this would be an oddly detailed thing to make up.
"Leadership principles" sound like Amazon. As far as I know they purposely get all their SDEs involved in hiring, and the bulk of their interviews is based on hard-skills, even when the interviewer's goal is to assess "leadership principles".
Also, one of their explicit interview goals is to have the candidate leave the interview round with a good impression of the company.
Nothing in your story adds up. Either you're embellishing it too hard or you're misusing the FANG keyword.
None of the FANGs I know ever had non-software engineers interview candidates for SDE positions, specially when software development managers are primarily software engineers themselves and interviews have a considerable software development aspect.
I'm sorry to say but your story doesn't add up.
Overall, I somewhat expected such an experience and am glad I ended up where I did. The place I am going is filled with great people, and honestly, more intelligent and curious people.
While that's not always true, it is far more often than you think. So assume that's what happened to you, it probably was if you look at the odds.
As far as thick skin, that's life. Stay strong. Remember that failure is never achieved until you give up. This is a cold, hard world if you don't benefit from nepotism as many do.
I've seen the same thing as well. One company even flew me out to their headquarters to interview for a position they knew they were going to give to somebody internally. I found out because they left me alone with a senior developer on the team. I asked him what my chances were of getting the job and he told me.
I wonder if there's a good way to filter out these roles earlier in the hiring process.
If we only made one of these businessmen president instead of a politician.
Trying to tease out these roles that are starting off on such a horrendous level of efficiency is difficult.
As a hiring manager, I'm desperate for good talent. For the company that liked you, ask if there's other roles in the organization or to be considered for future rounds. Can't hurt, but don't hold your breath. Laws often prevent honesty in rejections.
It's extremely difficult to find good people. Even the most prestigious companies with the most stringent hiring processes are filled with people who shouldn't have been hired. Half the time I hire someone, my workload increases rather than decreases.
I finally find a promising candidate, only to have FAANG come in and offer 50% more than I can. Significantly more than I earn. I try to compete by offering a better work environment, team, and growth. But 50% is life changing. And while I've helped so many grow, they leave holes when they do.
So I find myself questioning my life and worth.
That said there are a lot of people on HN. I would update your profile with at least your site/resume and what you are looking for.
In the mean time since you are out of work, start volunteering, participating in the community and even create some youtube / twitch content.
The interview process my major companies are often designed to convince you of prestige and the illusion that they are coveted, but if you really look at how things work in the corporate world, we are individually a product that they buy into as consumers. If they undervalue the product, and the product is something they don't really need for whatever reason, they will try to haggle.
If they need you as a product, and you develop and know your value, you can negotiate better, from a position of strength. Personal growth and confidence is a continual process of building and renovating, but it always has a peak, and even ebb and flows throughout. There is never one clear path to success, but rest comfortably in knowing that all you have to do is survive and grow, carrying only what matters for each role you need to play in life.
Your life isn't linked to a job, it's linked to survival. Never let an employer convince you that you are not worthy of a job, and never let a job be the only value you have...
Work to qualify for interviews at companies where you get interviewed by execs, not by middle and lower management. The friends you make in those roles carry weight. A big part of success is the "Grey Hair" rule. Accept that when you are young and less experienced, things will be harder. It gets easier to navigate as you grow grey hairs and more experience if you work efficiently and effectively (not furiously). Resume formatting and a cover letter aren't really what get you the job. Your experience, personal product, and presentation does... Don't overthink the process... Overthink your personal life goals (What you want to accomplish in your personal life, not in work for an employer).
I am not usually a positive person, I am a practical one. The world is a lot less intimidating and more easily understandable when you focus on what you can control... Work to live, don't live to work.
There is a handful of cases I would concede that you shouldn't keep searching for a new job but they are rare, like when you reach the position and company you dreamed your whole life and it's everything you wanted (e.g an artist that dreamed of becoming head animator at studio ghibli), or a company where you own a big stake and strongly believe soon will increase in value, or you found a company that provides so much generous benefits that looking for better position would likely be a waste of time (e.g. 200K, 3 day work week, great teammates)
The tech recruitment process is clearly broken. Companies have left this as an afterthought, its so clear to anyone interviewing that entire recruitment departments are doing the most and putting devs to hell for it
The worst thing is to be refused without knowing what's wrong so you're kept wondering why. Is it geographical reason? Is it national border reason? Legal reason? Culture fit? Personality fit?
Another worst thing is to be denied without any tests. Nowadays, I'd pick difficult and time consuming technical tests over being denied by technical merits due to incomplete CVs
- it is either looking to get sustainable as early as possible,
- or, if not, it is a research into the unknown (e.g. quantum computing, different purpose of db, new kind of AI, space exploration, green earth initiatives, even the early phases of blockchain)
Another points would be if the founders have the motivation to give back rather than take as much profit. My current company's founder have a dream to make an incubator for aspiring game makers, for example.
> I have never worked in an early stage startup.
The young company I have been in is when it was 1-year old. Founders are not looking for a mere "engineer", but one that can drive the team "above and beyond" style, because it is important for a small company. But, it is very difficult to see in people. The common mistake of many is to look for their own virtues in other people, which pretty much limits the other set of people not having the same virtue. E.g. Founders that focus on verbal communication and sales filter out people that cannot speak fluently, even though those are excellent product and engineering people.
Says who? If it was easy to get a high-paying job, everyone would just apply.
It's up to the person with money to decide on the kind of people they want to pay lots of money to, and what the testing methodology is (within the bounds of the law, of course).
I've played that game for over 20 years, and I'm completely immune to rejection. Most of the time you don't even get rejected, there's just silence. It used to bother me, maybe the first couple of years, but not anymore. I'd go to 50 onsite interviews and get maybe 2 offers, even though I'd solve most of their challenges correctly.
I normally ask the interviewing team to allow me to ask an advanced (worthy of PhD thesis) comp sci question for every canned leet code exercise they ask me to do.
They usually say no thank you. Or they say we believe you have the skills (based on the tens of github/youtube links on my resume) and won't test you.
Don't let them get away with one-sided penalty kicks.
It sucks and it is a blow, and it is emotionally quite draining. Try to stick in there - for me things all worked out in the end, and I hope they will for you too.
I try to live my life by the maxim of "you never know what is going to happen" and it cuts both ways, but there are times when something amazing just comes out of nowhere.
Good luck.
Complete shot in the dark, but my consulting company is hiring and I'd be happy to hook you in with a recruiter. We hire all types (background matters little if you have the skills), including career industry folks. Drop me a line if you would like more info -- email in profile (email domain is personal, not the company I work for).
Regardless, I wish you the best of luck in your search!
The problem is upwork takes a 20% cut and has bad terms and has a very flaky client base, while everything that VC money touches pays way better but hires non-contract fulltime only (fine) and has these rediculous interview cycles that I never seem to pass through.
I think if you put me in a stack of candidates that did leet code, i am basically never in the top 3 fastest, so that makes me unemployable in a system where resumes dont matter, personality is suspected to be bullshit, and speed of test completion is the only metric that can be used to rank candidates. Not in the top 3 fastest test takers? Get fucked.
I've never interacted with UpWork. My experience is that smaller companies pay fairly well, the interview process is usually easier, and you can learn a lot more about development, and that particular industry. The down side is that office politics matters more, you might have challenges with setting realistic expectations, and you might have trouble with comparisons to the last programmer they hired/fired.
There's no amount of meritocracy that can override billions of immigrants.
It's why immigrants are coming to America.
And how come Indian teams hire 99% Indians? They don't call that meritocracy with white people....
Also I didn't get lucky. My family has been here for many generations, and helped to build this country, got ancestors died building the railroad My grandfather got a purple heart in world war II.
My ancestors worked hard to contribute to create a country with a stable government and civilized society.
So it is really depressing to see collapsing in on itself. if anyone ever wonders, what Trumps appeal is That's why.
You were lucky in that YOU were born in the US. Your parents could have lived in India. Or China. Or Chad. Or the Ukraine. Just so happens they lived in the US and, as a lucky consequence, you were born in the US.
But unless you're Native American your ancestors weren't born here. They were immigrants too. America is a huge multi-cultural melting pot spanning generations. 97% of the population are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants.
Getting tired of the folk that move in and then say, "Hey, I've got mine. Now it's time to close the door on everyone else."
Only European immigrants for hundreds of years until 1965 Hart Cellar. Coincidentally a few years later:
https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
> Getting tired of the folk that move in and then say, "Hey, I've got mine. Now it's time to close the door on everyone else."
You're tired!!!?
I'm sick and tired of Western countries being responsible for Eastern countries billions of children! Stop having children! Maybe your country might actually be livable and not be something you want to run away from!
Notice that almost all of the countries that are desirable to immigrate to have a native population with a declining birth rate.
Also no one's closing any doors. any country can create their own prosperous economy? why not do that? Are they incapable of creating their own prosperous economy? It's closing the door because they're incapable of being successful on their own?
Instead Western countries get a billion people trying to immigrate and make the cost of labor dirt cheap.
It's pretty sad situation because the desirable countries are being turned into the rest of the world.
8 months is seriously too long if it’s the company dragging it out.
I went through something similar where I pulled the plug after 3 months.
Find the time for it by rubber stamping a few code reviews.
It gets boring after a while. Just a very repetitive process after 100 or so.
1. Interviewing is a career skill that has an outsized influence on your earning potential. You need to practice it to get good and keep those skills sharp.
2. Interviewing regularly (minimum twice per year, YMMV) keeps you up to speed on what skills are in demand and what problems companies are trying to solve.
3. It's a great way to network. I'm up-front about being a passive candidate and I still get takers for interviews. Even if you don't take the job after passing an interview, you'll have a foot in the door if you revisit your interviewee in the near future or have somebody you can send their way.
4. You never know when you'll need to change jobs. Job satisfaction, change in life circumstances, layoffs/economic downturns, or any number of things completely outside of your control can force a change in your employment.
It doesn't matter if you're happy, busy, or hate interviewing--interview regularly or suffer the consequences for being unpracticed and unprepared.
The amount of deception you’ll have to do is what holds me back from constant “practice” interviewing
You don’t need a BS excuse. You can just say you took a higher offer/offer with more vacation.
A lot of these companies aren’t paying competitively anyway, so they are used to people declining.
Currently, at least, big tech cos will keep that door open. Think of it this way - a company spending $$$ on recruiters cold-emailing a bunch of candidates, the majority of whom fail the process, isn't gonna throw away leads of people who they know have passed the process at least once.
I’m sorry, dude. That blows.
The offer was a pay cut from my current, very boring, but stable role.
Interviewing shouldn’t require such thick skin. I’m here questioning my life, and reduced to worthlessness.