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Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by adaml_623 on Thursday August 18, 2022 @02:32AM (#32506056)
I thought it was a commonly held thought that Google didn't want Chrome users using bookmarks because it directly competed with their search (and advertising).
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by lozenge on Thursday August 18, 2022 @03:37AM (#32506483)
Vertical screen space was very precious when Chrome came out. I remember their first feature over Firefox was moving tabs into the title bar and removing the menu bar, bookmark bar and bottom status bar, so saving about four bars of space for page contents.

Since launch, they've reduced the vertical space of the tab bar/title bar, even as screens gained more pixels.

Original design- https://www.google.com/googlebooks/chrome/small_12.html

The competition- https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Screenshot-of-Mozi...

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by fmajid on Thursday August 18, 2022 @04:04AM (#32506687)
Vertical space is still at a premium because most laptops use the obnoxious 16:9 aspect ratio. That’s why I keep my tabs on the right in Vivaldi.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by franga2000 on Thursday August 18, 2022 @08:49AM (#32508875)
Not to mention most websites love to waste vertical space. Navbars keep getting thicker, designers insist on having top bars even when the navigation is in the sidebar and the bottom is eaten up by cookie banners and chat/feedback popups.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by ssivark on Thursday August 18, 2022 @12:53PM (#32512113)
I’m guessing the problem there is that mobile is far more unforgiving on horizontal space than laptops are on vertical space, so anybody building a webpage to target both ends up in the regime you’re talking about.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by fmajid on Thursday August 18, 2022 @07:19PM (#32515989)
Good point. I suspect websites that start out as a Photoshop mock-up rather than a HTML5 prototype are more susceptible to this.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by dotancohen on Thursday August 18, 2022 @08:14AM (#32508501)
I've tried that, but you haven't lived until you've tried Tree Style Tabs in Firefox.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by permo-w on Thursday August 18, 2022 @09:41AM (#32509430)
I like tree-style tabs, and I use it when working on projects, but I find that it is a long, long way from what it could be, which is probably a direct result of the lack of competition

the settings UI is absolutely awful;

depending on which appearance you choose, it either looks ugly or blurs together;

it frequently has visual glitches;

could certainly be more customisable appearance and shortcut-wise;

doesn’t allow you to have a title or marker as the top level tab;

as far as I can tell doesn’t let you save a session of tabs;

has an unpleasant glitch where if you drop a tab in the wrong place it’ll disappear behind the current window and never be reachable;

the new tab behaviour irritates me;

and probably a few more complaints that I’d have to actually open it up to remember

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by PetitPrince on Thursday August 18, 2022 @11:35AM (#32511089)
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by dotancohen on Thursday August 18, 2022 @12:07PM (#32511499)
I might try it next week, but if you'd mention Sideberry's advantages over TST that would be great.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by wintermutestwin on Thursday August 18, 2022 @03:52PM (#32514110)
Sideberry lets you turn off the "tree" feature and just have the vertical tabs.

The whole point of vertical tabs is so you have enough characters visible to tell what the tab is. Tab trees waste this precious space.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by ohyash on Thursday August 18, 2022 @12:43PM (#32511958)
Sideberry is more complete out of the box. TST is more flexible for low level tinkering. That's what I read somewhere for TST, I use Sideberry.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by wintermutestwin on Thursday August 18, 2022 @03:49PM (#32514072)
As far as I can tell, Firefox, Edge and Vivaldi that are the only browsers with some way to get vertical tabs.

I don't know much about Vivaldi. Can you tell me what its monetization model is? Does it strip the google crap out of chromium?

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by fmajid on Thursday August 18, 2022 @07:15PM (#32515956)
Vivaldi was started by Jon von Tetzchner, the founder of Opera, and is meant to be a power-user’s browser with an emphasis on customizability and keyboard shortcuts, along with a range of unique features.

They do strip Google crud like FLoC, don’t pander to crypto scams and are employee-owned, you can check out their statements on Vivaldi.com. The only valid reason not to consider them would be that they are not open-source.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by kkfx on Thursday August 18, 2022 @03:53AM (#32506602)
And that's why Tab Center Reborn (formerly Tab Center Redux) FF extension came to live, while vertical space is scarce on modern monitors horizontal is ample normally.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by layer8 on Thursday August 18, 2022 @07:51AM (#32508231)
Ironically, Chrome still wastes slightly more vertical space than an appropriately configured Internet Explorer did.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by marginalia_nu on Thursday August 18, 2022 @08:02PM (#32516266)
> Vertical screen space was very precious when Chrome came out. I remember their first feature over Firefox was moving tabs into the title bar and removing the menu bar, bookmark bar and bottom status bar, so saving about four bars of space for page contents.

Was it really? When Netscape Navigator came out, 640x480 was probably the most common resolution. It used significantly more vertical space than Chrome has ever done. What happened between then and the release of chrome to make vertical space more precious?

Desktop computers have had very abundant screen-space for a long time.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by JohnFen on Thursday August 18, 2022 @11:17AM (#32510874)
> moving tabs into the title bar

Of all of the terrible UI elements that have become fashionable, this is probably the one I hate the most.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by MasterScrat on Thursday August 18, 2022 @04:12AM (#32506758)
I definitely feel like autocompletion in the omnibar is getting worse and worse, especially when the URL i'm looking for is bookmarked. The "this is just to make me google it again" thought does regularly crosses my mind.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by permo-w on Thursday August 18, 2022 @09:43AM (#32509465)
google makes a point of deleting your history after a certain amount of time and does not give any option to change it. I find this extremely irritating
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by atoav on Thursday August 18, 2022 @02:59AM (#32506227)
Why click on a bookmark if you can make your users google it?
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by cma on Thursday August 18, 2022 @03:15AM (#32506335)
And if the user is wanting to visit something like Ford.com, Google can charge Ford millions over time to be the first result, pitting them in a bidding war against Chevy for the top result (with tiny ad disclaimer) for a search for "Ford".
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by hk__2 on Thursday August 18, 2022 @04:02AM (#32506679)
> And if the user is wanting to visit something like Ford.com, Google can charge Ford millions over time to be the first result, pitting them in a bidding war against Chevy for the top result (with tiny ad disclaimer) for a search for "Ford".

That’s not how it works. If you own the website Ford.com, Google won’t charge you millions to bid on the keyword "Ford". They _will_ do it if you are Chevy and are bidding on Ford.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by corobo on Thursday August 18, 2022 @07:23AM (#32507976)
Apparently it is how it works if you go by Basecamp's words

https://twitter.com/jasonfried/status/1168986962704982016

I'm making an assumption we're all talking about the ads above the results, as afaik you can't pay to shuffle the real results

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by redhedgehog12 on Thursday August 18, 2022 @10:02AM (#32509725)
You can't pay to shuffle the organic results.

As for how much you pay for a click on any specific keyword, it isn't fixed and depends on two main things. I am simplifying here.

1. How related (google thinks) your page and ad copy is to the intent behind the keyword. More related = (generally) lower cpc

2. The reserve price that google sets for that keyword.

It used to be a second price auction in that you'd only ever pay 1p above the second highest bidder. It has now changed in that there is a reserve price for each keyword based on your page, ad copy and google's valuation of that keyword. This reserve price can be lowered or raised depending on how good and related Google thinks your page and ads are. It can fluctuate lots depending on your input but if google's valuation is high you'll never get it to pennies per click.

Insurance for injury claims for example will always be more than £10 per click no matter how good your page or ad copy is. Google just knows that those conversions are worth tons so people WILL pay high cpcs for them.

So in the Ford Chevy example, Ford's page is much more related to someone searching for Ford, Google knows the intent is likely to find a ford page so ford would pay FAR less than Chevy.

Chevy's page likely isn't matching the intent that google assumes the user has so their reserve price and hence final cost per click would be much higher.

Competitor bidding on google search is expensive.

Brand protection - bidding on your own brand terms - is (in my 7 years experience doing this) always incredibly cheap, 1 or 2 pence per click.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by corobo on Thursday August 18, 2022 @10:28AM (#32510135)
Where did you get this information? I can't find anything about ads on the internet without 300 copy paste articles popping up about 10 great ways to write ad copy so couldn't just google it.

Temporarily intrigued, don't go too far out of your way for my curiosity.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by redhedgehog12 on Thursday August 18, 2022 @10:47AM (#32510432)
I've put some links below that might explain it a bit better than I did. My info above is a mix of from google's docs as well as experience, talking to others in the industry etc.

Ad Rank[0] - this is the algorithm that determines essentially how much you pay like I mentioned. It's far more complex than my simplified explanation as it also takes into account context around the user. The device they're on, their previous searches etc. So a user who is on their 5th search for shoes and is now searching from their desktop may be more interested in a product page than an article since google may assume they're ready to buy now and they always buy from their desktop etc.

Ad Rank thresholds[1] - This is the friendly term for the reserve price I mentioned. It's the reserve price for a keyword based on all your inputs. Can go up and down depending on how relevant google thinks your stuff is at that moment for the user but generally google will set a floor for it.

Just more info[2] - more info from Google about how this stuff is worked out and what it means in practice.

If you google around "ad rank effect on cpc" you'll get more relevant stuff if you're interested.

[0] https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/1752122?hl=en-G... [1] https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/7634668 [2] https://support.google.com/google-ads/answer/1722122

When you think about what google is trying to do with ads it does make sense. If they let anyone serve rubbish for any search, people will stop clicking ads and advertisers will stop using it. Google loses out.

It's in the users (arguably, depending on how you view ads), the advertisers and Google's best interest to incentivise advertisers to make their stuff relevant and good.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by corobo on Friday August 19, 2022 @08:53AM (#32520355)
Appreciated, thank you!
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by cma on Thursday August 18, 2022 @11:47AM (#32511237)
$0.02 per click is not cheap for your own name, and this protection is more like protection in the mafia sense of the term.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by hk__2 on Thursday August 18, 2022 @05:57PM (#32515365)
> $0.02 per click is not cheap for your own name, and this protection is more like protection in the mafia sense of the term.

This is something you have to pay only if someone else is bidding on your own brand. Otherwise you’re already the first result and you don’t need any ad. This occurs only if you’re already a big player, and so $0.02 is nothing for you compared to what your competitors are spending. There’s nothing mafia-like here, it would be exactly the same (but much more expensive) in the physical world.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by cma on Thursday August 18, 2022 @11:16PM (#32517284)
For Ford, $0.02 per click is millions, which is all I said.

> This occurs only if you’re already a big

I see this for a tiny local food truck and accidentally click their ad instead of first result many times when ordering lunch, when I'm trying to not cost them by going through Google's "protection."

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by hk__2 on Friday August 19, 2022 @04:35AM (#32518698)
> For Ford, $0.02 per click is millions, which is all I said.

Yes, and that’s peanuts compared to the money they make from these clicks.

> I see this for a tiny local food truck and accidentally click their ad instead of first result many times when ordering lunch, when I'm trying to not cost them by going through Google's "protection."

I don’t see what’s wrong in having to pay to get back the first place when someone else is already giving money to overcome you.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by Barrin92 on Thursday August 18, 2022 @03:08AM (#32506291)
I think that's venturing into tinfoil hat territory. More likely telemetry told them that some percentage > 50 always toggle the bookmark bar off and they decided to make it the default. It's still there on new tabs after all. Companies like Google are long term greedy, they don't make unpopular UX decisions for scraps.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by mattlondon on Thursday August 18, 2022 @03:48AM (#32506571)
More likely there was a large amount of telemetry saying that the bookmark bar was visible but never used by a large group of users.

I can never imagine e.g. my mum turning the bookmark bar off, but I can certainly imagine her just totally ignoring it/not knowing what it is.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by malepoon on Thursday August 18, 2022 @09:39AM (#32509416)
It's true though. You see something similar with the address bar: Chrome's is pretty horrible for accessing history or bookmarks, it instead tries to push you to do a search. Firefox has much richer information here.
Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by ithrow on Thursday August 18, 2022 @12:25PM (#32511704)
Companies like Google are long term greedy, they don't make unpopular UX decisions for scraps.

Like not letting you add tags? not tagging definitely makes you use google search more.

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by westurner on Thursday August 18, 2022 @03:47PM (#32514050)
"Do you like the browser bookmark manager?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24511454 :

> Things I'd add to browser bookmark managers someday:

> - Support for (persisting) bookmarks tags. From the post re: the re-launch of del.icio.us: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23985623

>> "Allow reading and writing bookmark tags" https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1225916

>> Notes re: how [browser bookmarks with URI|str* tags] could be standardized with JSON-LD: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1225916#c116 *

***

WICG/scroll-to-text-fragment "Integration with W3C Web Annotations" https://github.com/WICG/scroll-to-text-fragment/issues/4

***

W3C Web Share API & W3C Web Target API https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30449716

Re:Ask HN: Why are bookmarks second class citizens in browsers? by amadeuspagel on Thursday August 18, 2022 @01:43PM (#32512693)
I think both tags and folders would confuse people. I'd personally like them to remove folders and have only tags, but you can already imagine the HN comments ... google screwing with bookmarks to make you use search more ... not compatible with other browsers (import/export) ... monopolistic ... lock-in.