As for the danger, population collapse is often precipitous - and by the time you notice it, is very hard to roll back.

And it's not just our species impacted by the changes.

Oh also since we’re on a technicality forum. Trans hormones don’t necessarily cause permanent sterilization. Plenty of trans people have children

> Of the adult trans population, between 25% and 49% of individuals are believed to be parents (Dierckx, Motmans, Mortelmans, & T’sjoen, 2016)

> Trans parents may form their families in a range of ways, including through biological parenthood, step-parenthood, adoption, fostering, and assisted reproduction, with an increasing number of options available to trans people wishing to become parents.

> Trans hormones don’t necessarily cause permanent sterilization. Plenty of trans people have children

I was just pointing out that the evidence provided with the 25% number doesn't really speak to fertility, but rather all the possible ways of having children.

And if it did, it would probably be from something like pollution/climate change, not a tiny minority of trans people.

> Values that have been around for thousands of millions of years.

I could make the same arguments about modern therapeutics for asthma and short-sightedness being againsts millions of years of nature.

There are no self-grounding values. You cannot objectively justify why fertility is the overriding value here, rather than, say, fairness, liberty or anything else. So yes, you are absolutely espousing your values. If you want to make an argument, make it, don't pretend it's self-evident.

We have all benefited from the contributions made by members of past generations that didn’t reproduce, but their genes live on through their relatives that did reproduce. If all we care about is survival of the species, the best thing for all of us is that trans people get the help and support they need to leave the healthiest and most fulfilling lives possible, so that they can maximally contribute to society. I think that’s an overly reductive attitude, but that’s one way of thinking about it.

There is an inescapable choice in choosing the grounds from which to reason out to an ethical conclusion - there is no self-evident starting point, hence the riotous confusion of moral philosophy over the last two millennia.

Kidneys evolved, mutative replication remains the source of life.

If I'm exposed to poisons in the air or water, it's likely to happen to others as well - especially if it's at levels where it's not immediately noticed.

Many other causes of effective infertility are unlikely to impact entire groups of people across long periods of time.

if you died and then a millisecond after a chicxulub scale asteroid obliterated all mammalian life (again), who would be there to care about fucking fertility or propagation of the species??

the point is we don't have to be limited to biological mandates -- that's what transhumanism is about. moralizing it is just wasted and you clearly don't understand what it's about.

instead you decide to whinge about trans people being mentally ill. please

(Misremembering other people's arguments is a poor strategy in a technical forum.)

And regardless of what transhumanism as a whole is about, it will always be about continuation of sapience and its evolution through time.

Biological or otherwise.

what exactly is your word for unhealthy and undesirable? you are clearly referring to dysphoria. i don't know if you realized, but the DSM has changed in recent years.

classic intellectually dishonest HN concern troll

Well it seems you're the one trolling here.

If you deny the right to people to have opinions and judgments based on their beliefs about anything they wish, you're doing worse than you complain about.

Acceptance was a vital social step, but promotion crosses a line for me - and there are severe deleterious consequences are ignored and dismissed by the community.

I think in general the answer is to let kids be themselves and not to judge them for it; give them a say in their clothes and toys - and do not punish them for their selection.

though you are right, i am kinda a hedonist. do you mourn for me, or lament the condition I would bring upon civilization, right before chicxulub blows us up? haha.

don't worry, i have no power offline either.