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Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by djur on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @04:48PM (#32256721)
A substantial number of those 52 senators oppose free school meals not because they're "too expensive" but because the policy itself (the government giving free food to children) is something they object to on ideological grounds. A much smaller subset of that group also oppose the government giving free stuff to industry, but in either case the cost is not what they're concerned about.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by runarberg on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:43PM (#32257419)
I’ve stopped believing in the ideology of the average legislator. There are some high profile congresspeople or senators who are deeply ideological, and act according to their ideology, but I feel like that is the exception rather then the rule (hence the high profile).

Rather then ideology most legislators rule by the most persuasive lobbying, this includes people and PACs that pay for their very very expensive campaign funds. And in this case semiconductor monopolies simply has a better performing lobbying campaign then social advocacy groups, so the former gets passed but not the latter.

Note. I don’t believe this listing of democracy is unique to the USA. You see it in Europe as well. However USA is especially prone to this because of lax lobbying laws, lax campaign financing laws while also being one of the least represented democracy in the world (even less represented then non-democracies like China).

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by chmod600 on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @04:50PM (#32256750)
Or, perhaps feel that state governments are better suited to those kinds of assistance programs.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by mhneu on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @04:51PM (#32256776)
Unlikely, because many states then cut those assistance programs when given the opportunity. It's more likely that the 'state' argument is a way to achieve their ideological ends (cutting the program.)

That said, this bill is a very positive development. Investing in local manufacturing and R&D is a great idea, and it will help the economy. Hopefully it will efficient and money will not be captured by rent-seekers or cronyism.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by Grim-444 on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:05PM (#32256960)
Isn't that how it's supposed to work? The state is supposed to pass laws that represent the will of its constituents. If the majority of the people living in the state are opposed to such a program, then they shouldn't have such a program. The scope of the federal government is supposed to be for coordinating cross-state stuff that states alone can't decide for themselves.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by jonathanlb on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:17PM (#32257098)
> The state is supposed to pass laws that represent the will of its constituents. If the majority of the people living in the state are opposed to such a program, then they shouldn't have such a program.

You're ignoring that gerrymandering districts allow politicians to enact policies that don't reflect the will of the people.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by commandlinefan on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:35PM (#32257334)
> gerrymandering districts

But that would be even worse at a federal level because there are so many more districts to gerrymander, wouldn't it?

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by bobthepanda on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:17PM (#32257746)
The federal government is a lot less likely to be one-party than a state. We haven't had a same-party trifecta for over a decade.

Also, states draw the federal district lines, so generally the Dems and Repubs both do it and the end result is less lopsided.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by Retric on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:17PM (#32257105)
If we wanted local control then local towns/cities and counties would have the most power in our system. Instead things are reversed so smaller units of government have progressively less power.

This makes sense because we want people to freely move around the country without encountering wildly different systems in every small town.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by munk-a on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:25PM (#32257210)
Also, when education funding happens on the county level we end up having wildly different standards of education depending on if your county is where rich people live or not - everyone wants to demand the best for their own children, but I think it's pretty settled that children, who don't have freedom of movement and aren't viewed as fully rationale agents, should have access to good education regardless of who their parents are and where they choose to live.

Differing county education funding was a real and evident problem when I was growing up in Massachuesettes in the 90s - some areas (like Wellesley) had extremely well funded schools due to local taxes while other areas had far too many students for the funds they collected. This, in part, lead to a whole big thing involving student busing[1] which was honestly pretty awful for the students that rode several hours to attend suburban schools - even if they did end up in a better funded district it was a cheap patch that avoided the real issue.

1. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/04/boston...

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by bobthepanda on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:19PM (#32257766)
County level would be an improvement in some places, because school districts can actually be balkanized even smaller than that.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by chmod600 on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:28PM (#32257249)
The name of our country is the United States. The state was intended as the primary unit of general government.

Lots of land is outside of cities, and that can't be left ungoverned. And many counties have very few people, which make a lot of government functions impractical or insufficient.

So states are still a reasonable unit after 250 years.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by munk-a on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:34PM (#32257319)
Alternatively the name of our country (well my former country but whatever) is the United States because existing colonial governments held significant power and weren't willing to unite if it meant they could be unseated from their cushy political appointments.

I don't think going by names is the best approach when we've got legal documents and statements to go by which are far less vague.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by Retric on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:32PM (#32257295)
Over 4 million Americans aren’t living in States. United States is a name, but it consists of more than just States.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by chmod600 on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:40PM (#32257976)
Good point.

Not enough to claim that the federal government must take responsibility for all assistance programs, however.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by lvspiff on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:24PM (#32257198)
Thats the abortion ruling in a nutshell - return it to the states and let the voters decide. However at the same time we have rulings saying gun rights are a federal issue and a state cannot regulate how permits are given out the way they want (although there are many nuances there), essentially making it a constitutional issue due to the 2nd amendment.

So in other words if it's the will of the country we need to pass an amendment, and if not then move to a state where your ideals are embraced. I know I've heard this story somewhere before...i think back in 1860's...

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by cal5k on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:44PM (#32257427)
> essentially making it a constitutional issue due to the 2nd amendment.

Yes, because that's how the American constitution works. If you think something else should have similar protections - or if you don't like the second amendment and think it should be repealed - lobby for a new amendment.

Until then, it's the highest law in the land and is on equal footing with any constitutional protection, regardless of your personal policy preferences.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by rurp on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:48PM (#32258075)
Oh to live in such a world... Unfortunately the Supreme Court is not a compiler that returns rulings from some objective process. The justices have massive leeway to decide how to interpret every part of the constitution, and they do so to align their rulings with their own personal and political goals. If we swapped this court with 9 other judges they would return very different rulings on the exact same cases.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by mrkstu on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @08:20PM (#32258908)
In this instance though, the majority's 'political goals' are textualism and originalism- where the intent of the written words is paramount. This at least has the virtue of limiting the power of their unelected personal policy outcomes- which we see much more often with the putative conservatives voting with the liberals against their presumed personal opinions on what they'd like the outcome to be.

You see that quite often from Gorsuch and Alito- you'll not once see that from Sotomayor.

Thomas is consistent, though conveniently for him his policy and political preference's and how he reads the Constitution seem to align nearly perfectly.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by eropple on Sunday July 31, 2022 @08:10PM (#32300197)
Gorsuch I'll give you as, while intensely conservative, probably pretty honest about it, but Alito is a whole-cloth mythmaker on his own in the vein of a Scalia. He's about as much of a "textualist" as Thomas is, and both will search for any wild port in a storm (see Dobbs itself for plenty of them) to get to the point he wanted to get to.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by maxerickson on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:55PM (#32258138)
How big of a majority needs to decide that the federal government should be what they want and not what you think it is supposed to be before it can change?
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by Clent on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:19PM (#32257121)
States Government don't have the taxing power of the Federal Government.

The only way to solve this equation is to drop Federal Government taxing power to as close to zero as possible and zero may not be enough as states power is likely to drop.

If economics was a harder science, it would be about mathematically proofs of these possibilities.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by yuliyp on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:25PM (#32257212)
> States Government don't have the taxing power of the Federal Government.

Sure they do (except stuff like tariffs). They just face competition from other states on how much they tax their citizens.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by shaklee3 on Thursday July 28, 2022 @01:07AM (#32260677)
California renewed it for next year
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by mathattack on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:02PM (#32256922)
I’m all for healthy free lunches for poor kids. Is it really necessary to give free meals to all Palo Alto kids independent of financial status? https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2022/06/19/palo-alto-uni...
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by SeanLuke on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:16PM (#32257096)
I'm all for free public education for poor kids. Is it really necessary to give free public education to all Palo Alto kids independent of financial status?

Snark aside, the answer is: it's much simpler to manage a program that offers the same thing to everyone regardless of income than it is to manage a program that has to work out who deserves it. And offering it to all avoids stigma.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by mathattack on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @07:17PM (#32258333)
When 90+% of the kids don’t need it, wouldn’t it be better to use the money to hire more teachers?
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by jprd on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:40PM (#32257382)
Yes!

Why would a human being feel that feeding children is NOT their responsibility?

Clearly you have never had to be the "free lunch kid", or idealize your childhood independent of the cruelty of "different". You are extremely privileged.

The idea that we'd limit what kids we fund for meals, education, etc. is just gross and bifurcates any moralistic or democratic ideals.

The US has a serious problem with "bootstraps" and whatnot. Which really means, survival of the sh1tt1est.

If you feel that investing in the future of your community is BS, stop living in a community.

You don't have kids? Cool!

Meanwhile, you don't feel like you need to contribute to the future you wish you had secured for yourself without struggle? F*ck you. Your community is an investment in the continued existence of a people with similar DNA as yourself.

It is beyond my understanding to fathom how in 2022 we're all still trying to deal with false scarcity as some sort of reality.

There is MORE than enough for everyone, but we don't really care about that beyond a family or clan directive. That's a shame for any culture.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by rubyist5eva on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:17PM (#32257737)
> Why would a human being feel that feeding children is NOT their responsibility?

Perhaps we should ask the parents who are encouraged to not feed their own children because of the existence of these programs.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by tacotacotaco on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:42PM (#32258010)
I was at the house of the owner of a company I worked for. I mentioned my amusement at seeing a school bus in this very rural area on the way to his house. He complained that he didn’t have kids so he didn’t see why he should have to pay for that. I replied that, as my employer, he was benefiting from my public school education. That ended that conversation.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by mathattack on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @07:07PM (#32258262)
It’s not defunding education. It’s saying rather than waste money on something unnecessary over here (like free lunches for the wealthy) let’s spend it on something better (like teacher salaries).
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by djur on Thursday July 28, 2022 @12:46PM (#32266854)
If you have a progressive tax system, excess government aid used by wealthy families is more than made up for by the higher tax rates those families pay. In exchange, you end up with programs that are simpler to operate, have less red tape, and have a broader base of political support.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by powerhour on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @09:58PM (#32259592)
How much higher would their salaries be?
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by mathattack on Thursday July 28, 2022 @12:23AM (#32260467)
Order of magnitude calculation…

Let’s say there is a 22 to 1 student to teacher ratio. And 20 don’t need the free lunch but you give it to them anyways. Let’s say you’re spending $5 per meal per kid. That’s $100/day. 180 days per school year. $18k per class.

It could be higher, it could be lower. Certainly it’s enough to be out to good use.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by djur on Thursday July 28, 2022 @01:03PM (#32267127)
The additional subsidy for free lunches in the US currently is closer to $3.60, and you are massively overestimating how many additional free lunches would be consumed. The majority of school lunches consumed are already free. In 2019[1], 20.1 million free lunches were served compared to 7.7 million full price (and 1.7 million reduced price). And even the "full price" lunches are partially subsidized. So even assuming that all of the students in that class are eating school lunches (they aren't; only about 60% of kids do), the difference is more like 5-6 "unnecessary" lunches, not 20. The real number would likely be significantly lower than that.

[1]: https://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/child-nutrition-tables

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by mathattack on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @07:07PM (#32258253)
I apologize for triggering you into profanity. This is clearly an emotional topic for you.

Actually I’d rather they spend the money on teachers rather than lunches for kids whose parents can afford to pay for their own.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by gene91 on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:35PM (#32257335)
“Free lunch” isn’t free if one pays enough tax to cover its cost and other free things that they receive. Given there’s already progressive taxes, what’s the benefit of having income threshold for free lunch programs (or similar assistance programs)?

Universal “free lunch” is cheaper to manage, avoids filtering out children who needs it (but is filtered out due to administrative error or rigid rules), prevents children’s embarrassment, etc.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by jagged-chisel on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:06PM (#32256969)
Doing it for everyone makes management simpler. I suspect it leads to better academic performance, too.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by danenania on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:18PM (#32257758)
Exactly.

It's not about the kid in Palo Alto who doesn't need it, but gets it anyway.

It's about the kid who lives in poverty and should get it, but doesn't, because their family didn't properly submit forms A65, B39, and F12 proving their annual income meets the ever-changing requirements.

Giving a benefit to everyone is by far the simplest and most effective way to be sure no one falls through the bureaucratic cracks (though it's probably more accurate to call them gaping chasms than 'cracks').

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by jonny_eh on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:59PM (#32257581)
Also, it doesn't stigmatize the kids that do receive the free meals.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by mathattack on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @07:14PM (#32258316)
You’re suggesting that buying free lunches for the 92% of students who don’t need it [0] is more efficient than just paying teachers more or hiring more intervention specialists or counselors?

[0] https://www.schooldigger.com/go/CA/schools/2961004596/school...

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by Jensson on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @07:25PM (#32258408)
Many parents who can afford things still don't pay for them for their kids. Not sure why nobody thinks of those kids, there ought to be millions of them...
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by tbihl on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @09:22PM (#32259331)
You think there are millions of US American school-age children whose parents voluntarily undernourish them? Out of 73 million children under 18 in the US, that's at least several percent. Do you have a citation?
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by kergonath on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:22PM (#32257168)
It is not necessarily a problem with progressive income taxes: the wealthier still pay more.

Also, giving every kid the same treatment is a good idea in general as it reinforces the idea that they should be treated equally.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by ejb999 on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:41PM (#32257383)
>>Also, giving every kid the same treatment is a good idea in general as it reinforces the idea that they should be treated equally.

Actually what it does is teach kids they should depend on the government for handouts - even if there families can easily afford to pay their own way. Not a message I would choose to send.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by jonny_eh on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:00PM (#32257591)
Kids depend on adults. Those adults are primarily their parents, but it need not be.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by jancsika on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:17PM (#32257099)
I keep asking the same thing about why it's necessary for malloc to give so much memory to Electron, but they are way less friendly on the glibc mailing list to that argument for some reason.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by fipar on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:19PM (#32257123)
Most likely only those who need it will take it, and making it available to everyone makes it simpler to manage.

I went to a public school in Uruguay and we had a daily free meal (not really lunch, it was more of a snack, school ran 13 to 17 for me) and I never went to get mine, but I always had a couple of classmates who didn't get a square lunch at home and they went to get that.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by beachtaxidriver on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:28PM (#32257254)
When middle class people use a government service, the quality goes up.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by mathattack on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @07:16PM (#32258322)
You clearly haven’t seen what passes for a school lunch.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by jpdaigle on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:42PM (#32257398)
The Palo Alto school meals are by no means healthy. At least at my kindergartner’s school last year, nothing’s really prepared onsite, it’s mostly microwave-in-a-bag fast food (factory made burritos, pizza, 2-ingredient sandwiches). Often this would come with a side of fruit (canned and sweetened) and crackers.

My kid would always bring a lunch from home but often return with it uneaten, because when you pit healthy home cooked food against microwaved pizza and crackers, for a six year old, it’s no contest.

I’m still supportive of the program - if there are starving kids in our community, of course having free options is great, I just wish they’d managed to have a cook onsite so it wouldn’t be so factory-made and artificial.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by klodolph on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:28PM (#32257252)
There's an added cost if you want to sort through which kids qualify and which kids don't. Trying to filter kids out also reduces the program's reach for kids which do qualify for various reasons.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by catawbasam on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:04PM (#32256938)
My experience is that the rich kids mostly bring food, because the cafeteria food is terrible.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by Clubber on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:05PM (#32256957)
The idea behind it is not to embarrass the poor kids who need the free lunch by making lunch just free.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by nsxwolf on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:50PM (#32257492)
And then the government gets to decide what the lunches are for everyone.
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by Clubber on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:53PM (#32257523)
>And then the government gets to decide what the lunches are for everyone.

Well, no. You always have the option to bring your lunch if you can afford it. So the government gets to decide what the lunches are for poor people who don't have another option. Take that for what it is, but shit lunch is better than no lunch, ask any hungry person.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by thereare5lights on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:09PM (#32256998)
Necessary is a bad way to evaluate because it often devolves into whether or not it is "absolutely necessary". Of course the answer is often times no.

Rather than embrace minimalism, the better question is if it is more efficient to run the program that way and often times, universal programs are indeed more efficient.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by diordiderot on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:17PM (#32257744)
earn more > you pay more tax > kids 'free meal' isn't free
[dead]
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by pram on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:20PM (#32257137)
Corporations need to eat too!
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by Smoosh on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @07:58PM (#32258703)
Won't somebody please think of the billionaires!
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by kortilla on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:11PM (#32257027)
It’s almost as if that’s not the ideology at all!
Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by bilbo0s on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:19PM (#32257135)
Yep.

In the US, a lot of the time support for one program or another is given not on the basis of ideology, but rather on the basis of whether or not the beneficiaries of a program provided commensurate, um, "campaign contributions".

Pretty sure impoverished school kids contribute pretty much zero to political campaigns.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by ch4s3 on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:56PM (#32257561)
Increasingly campaigns are funded almost entirely by small dollar donations raised through social media. This is about to make US politics really weird, and I'm not sure what to think of it.

Also basically all legislation that passes which is very little, is written by the staffers of House and Senate leadership without going through committee. It's then handed to members to rubber stamp on the floor if the votes are already secured. Buying some random senator or rep is basically worthless these days unless they hold swing vote and can't be primaried for some reason.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by feet on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @06:59PM (#32258178)
There's a ton of legislation written by think tanks like ALECS

It would be nice if all campaigns were funded by small donations. We should get large corporate donors out of politics

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by ch4s3 on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @07:23PM (#32258393)
Sure, but most of that stuff doesn't make it into law at the federal level. State houses are a different story. Congress really doesn't pass a lot of legislation anymore.

> It would be nice if all campaigns were funded by small donations

If you go look at the videos congress people are putting up to pull in donations, you may not have such a rosy view. It tends to be the most divisive stuff, and really leans into fear of the other in general. It seems unhealthy to me.

Re:Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semi... by jorblumesea on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @05:19PM (#32257127)
It's not that crazy if you think about the fact that most senators never went to public schools, are from wealthy families, went ivy league, mostly hang around other wealthy people.

Completely out of touch is probably the right mental framework.