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Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by toto444 on Monday July 18, 2022 @06:27AM (#32136551)
I have been donating some money every month to an Icelandic tree planting project to offset my carbon emissions after reading an article on HN about how the Vikings cut all trees of the island. I find the numbers fascinating :

> Forests and bushes now cover over 2% of Iceland, Vísir reports. That number may not seem like much, but since 1990, the surface area covered by forest or shrubs in Iceland has increased more than six times over – from 7,000 hectares to 45,000. In 20 years, the number is expected to be 2.6%.

And from another article :

> The Forest Service intends to deliver six million plants this year, says Þröstur, which is equivalent to pre-crash levels of production. “It was around five million last year, and four million the year before that. This is a rapid increase. Then we need seven to eight million next year, which we may not manage, and ten to twelve in 2025.”

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by pasiaj on Monday July 18, 2022 @06:44AM (#32136636)
For comparison: Finland (338,440 km²) is three times the size of Iceland (103,000 km²)

Finland has 23 million hectares (76%) of forest cover.

http://www.metla.fi/metinfo/sustainability/finnish.htm

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by BurningFrog on Monday July 18, 2022 @09:59AM (#32138435)
A hectare is 0.01 km², so Finland has 230,000 km² of forest.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by lucb1e on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:20PM (#32140752)
Frankly I find both of these really hard to wrap my head around. Not like football fields or olympic swimming pools are better, but the country of Finland being ¾ covered gives me a much better sense of scale than x million hectolometers.

Probably that only works for people that are from nearby Finland and/or into geography, though. For huge scales like these, I'm thinking degrees might theoretically be a better unit, since it's easier to visualize a fraction of the globe (presuming people know there's 360 degrees around the globe) than picturing hundreds of thousands of some other unit.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by bloppe on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:31AM (#32136986)
If the goal is to sequester as much CO2 as possible, it's much better to support tropical rainforest than planting trees near the arctic circle. The Coalition of Rainforest Nations is consistently cited as one of the most impactful NGO's in terms of carbon saved.

I'm all for planting more Icelandic trees, but I don't think you're getting as much bang for your buck as you could.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by melling on Monday July 18, 2022 @08:37AM (#32137598)
The old “Wait, wait, stop what you are doing. I’ve got a better idea.”

You know what would really be better than planting trees? For the world to stop burning so much coal.

40% of global electricity is from coal. Europe needs to increase coal usage because of the war.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/germany-coal-renewable-energ...

There are 8 billion people on the planet. “Hey, everyone stop what you’re doing, let’s all do this” is quite ineffective. We don’t need to stop planting trees in Iceland in order to save the rain forests.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by bloppe on Monday July 18, 2022 @09:52AM (#32138371)
While I appreciate the irony of this comment, you actually have a point. I would love the ability to personally sponsor the energy transition. Privately subsidized renewable energy projects could be a game changer. Anybody here done much research into this?

Again, I think planting Icelandic trees is awesome! Just since OP specifically mentioned "offset my carbon emissions" I thought I'd shill one of my favorite ways of doing that :)

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by krallja on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:06AM (#32138524)
Duke Energy’s “Shared Solar” in North Carolina USA is one such community-funded system

https://www.duke-energy.com/home/products/renewable-energy/n...

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by melling on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:07AM (#32138546)
Yes, losing the rainforest is a serious problem and it doesn’t seem to be improving.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/19/deforestation-in-brazils-ama...

Isn’t the land being destroyed so people can have more meat, palm oil, etc.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2022/03/09/...

What are organizations doing to improve the situation? Fighting consumer demand is difficult

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by otikik on Monday July 18, 2022 @12:32PM (#32140181)
I also find it hypocritical.

My ancestors on my “civilised” country uprooted an tore down all the trees and forests, most of the countryside is farmland. And now that we have destroyed our forests we go “no no, preserve the rainforests”… so we can keep planting wheat?

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by User23 on Monday July 18, 2022 @11:43AM (#32139644)
I'm sure you'd have no trouble getting people to let you pay for their solar install and buy them an electric vehicle.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by hedora on Monday July 18, 2022 @03:12PM (#32142249)
I wonder if there's a charity that will pay for / subsidize heat pumps in Europe this winter. The war in Ukraine is an actual existential crisis for many countries over there, and ending gas imports is the easiest way for them to defend against future Russian invasion.

I'd expect the politicians to be launching a WWII-style industrial mobilization to ramp up heat pump installations. Even if they can't switch away from coal / natural gas this year, typical heat pump coefficients of power are well above 4. Going from 100% gas furnaces to 100% heat pumps powered off of natural gas peaker plants would more than halve natural gas demand! (And, in coming years, the natural gas plants could be replaced with greener options.)

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by fleddr on Monday July 18, 2022 @04:18PM (#32143103)
Note that in moderate/colder countries (taking the Netherlands as an example), heat pumps are not a solution when your house is not up to modern insulation standards. Which is true for almost all houses older than say 15-20 years.

The insulation needs to happen first for those houses, and this can be a massive undertaking costing tens of thousands of euros. The next best thing is a hybrid heat pump.

Although there's some subsidies here and there, you're very much right that we need something way more aggressive. For the houses I mentioned (which is almost all), a total sum of ~50K EUR is just not something the average family can afford. Those that do probably up their mortgage to finance it.

Also take into account the shortages. I have a family member that installs heat pumps, he orders them by the dozens. Currently he's afraid to place orders as the delivery time is a minimum of 6 months with no guaranteed final date nor is the price fixed. It's "6K but we will charge you whatever it will actually be when we deliver". "I don't know when it is coming or what it will cost" is not a great message towards home owners.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by scifibestfi on Monday July 18, 2022 @02:46PM (#32141883)
> 40% of global electricity is from coal. Europe needs to increase coal usage because of the war.

Or put another way, because they didn't bother to become energy independent and shut down nuclear plants instead of investing in more.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by jacoblambda on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:40AM (#32137050)
Sure for the purpose of sequestering CO2 it may not be the most "economically efficient" but in general attempting to restore Iceland back to the pre-settlement forest coverage of 40% seems a worthwhile goal in of itself.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by throwaway894345 on Monday July 18, 2022 @08:27AM (#32137503)
Agreed. I’m also of the impression that cutting down the trees led to intense soil erosion (winds and rains washing the topsoil off of the relatively flat island). In addition to minimizing soil erosion, I also wonder if forests will help regenerate topsoil.

Also, I wouldn’t mind retiring early and doing some tree planting in Iceland or similar volunteer work to pay my way around a country.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by spenczar5 on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:15AM (#32138644)
It’s complicated. Iceland is less corrupt than many nations with tropical rainforests, so your dollars are more likely to actually be used as you intended. There is very little logging industry competing against you and virtually no poaching so your effort is more durable, too.

It’s hard to quantify these things and get a conclusive answer on which is better; I think we can leave it at “both are good.”

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by lucb1e on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:25PM (#32140811)
> There is very little logging industry

I wonder why :P

When I was in Iceland, they told me the reason they don't have forests anymore is that the vikings and other later settlers logged it. (Of course, a random horse tour person isn't the best source so I could very well be misinformed.)

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by yownie on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:57PM (#32147019)
you were correctly informed, it was a combination of early settlers logging heavily plus long forest regrow times due to sparse sunlight plus sheep overgrazing saplings.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by belorn on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:08AM (#32138556)
If the goal is to sequester CO2 then its not enough to just grow trees, you also need to prevent them from being cut down and burned. One thing that I would argue in favor of using iceland and other areas around the arctic circle is that people has demonstrated in the last several decades that it isn't economical worth to grow and farm the land for anything, which include trees. That might then mean that people will leave the trees alone for a long enough time that the sequester of CO2 matters.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by koheripbal on Monday July 18, 2022 @08:00AM (#32137243)
In general, mature forests are net CO2 neutral as they exist in a balanced carbon cycle.

Only when they are initially planted and growing is there a net CO2 sequestration going on.

Burning fossil fuels is the problem we need to fix.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by jazzyjackson on Monday July 18, 2022 @08:27AM (#32137498)
if your only metric is CO2, you miss the forest for the trees ;)

the problem with climate change is the wild swings in weather - if you want to stabilize and buffer these swings, you need to maximize biomass. having a mature forest ecosystem acting as a carbon/nitrogen buffer does a lot of good, but in a way that is difficult to measure

I think we get tunnel vision on CO2 ppm because it's a metric with a nice clean causative effect (greenhouse), but more energy on earth is not what's actually causing us grief, we've destroyed most of the mature ecosystems and decimated total biomass, and we are surprised that this causes issues with the total ecosystem because we consider atmospheric problems somehow unrelated to all the living things participating in chemical cycles with that atmosphere. we need more buffer wherever we can get it, and I hate to see someone poo-pooing ecosystem restoration in favor of carbon sequestration.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by soco on Monday July 18, 2022 @08:45AM (#32137675)
Carbon sequestration is a technological problem so technology people will absolutely love it - unlike something as mundane and boring as planting trees or breeding frogs.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by jazzyjackson on Monday July 18, 2022 @12:30PM (#32140164)
personally my favorite is coral propagation, just take some coral and split it into smaller chunks and let those chunks grow up - they are self replicators, what more could a techie want?
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by snewman on Monday July 18, 2022 @08:08AM (#32137308)
We need to do many many many things. Halting the combustion of fossil fuels is absolutely #1 on the list, but it's a long list.

That initial sequestration can't make up for ongoing use of fossil fuels, sure, but it still has nonzero value.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by KptMarchewa on Monday July 18, 2022 @08:56AM (#32137776)
> In general, mature forests are net CO2 neutral as they exist in a balanced carbon cycle.

Can we cut down forests and store them deep in former mines?

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by clankyclanker on Monday July 18, 2022 @09:04AM (#32137850)
Sure, but it’s even more efficient to leave those coal mines unmined.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by KptMarchewa on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:38PM (#32140961)
There is already a ton of open pit coal mines. Like here https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6155147,14.3242528,60602m/da...

I'm not advocating for new mines.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by mschuster91 on Monday July 18, 2022 @09:29AM (#32138120)
No, because as soon as a tree is dead it will begin to rot and decompose (there's fungi everywhere in the air that is just waiting for a piece of juicy fresh tree to digest), thereby releasing CO2, methane and other decomposition gases.

The only way to sequester CO2 using trees is keeping the trees alive (or blasting them with chemicals to prevent rotting).

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by spenczar5 on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:17AM (#32138673)
If you bury the trees reasonably deep, that CO2 takes a very long time to get to the surface (like tens of thousands of years) so it’s good enough for our purposes.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by BurningFrog on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:09AM (#32138573)
You can also weigh it down and sink it to the bottom of oceans that don't have wood eating organisms. The Baltic and the Black Sea are the ones I know.

But of course, the solution you mention is the simplest: Treat the wood with one of the several known ways to make it not break down, and leave it in big piles somewhere.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by gilleain on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:23AM (#32138740)
Thus my friend's idea to CRISPR plants so that they deposit their carbon in some indigestible polymer that will not rot for the foreseeable future.

I'm sure there are no possible repercussions to doing this.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Baeocystin on Monday July 18, 2022 @02:40PM (#32141774)
I mean, it worked for the Carboniferous, until some cheeky fungus figured out how to digest lignin. But we had a nice 60 million year run, and got lots of useful hydrocarbons out of it, so hey!
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by krallja on Monday July 18, 2022 @12:28PM (#32140143)
Truly bioengineering at a galactic scale. In a hundred million years, geological processes will have turned your polymers into some cool new exotic fuel source.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by imtringued on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:57AM (#32149479)
Plants send glucose down their roots to feed mycorrhizal fungi which build up soil organic matter.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by KptMarchewa on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:37PM (#32140948)
The idea is to cover the trees with something (soil, and large amount of it)?

If they rot the CO2 will still be below the surface?

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by yellowapple on Monday July 18, 2022 @03:57PM (#32142867)
> or blasting them with chemicals to prevent rotting

That's kind of a given. People generally don't like it when their homes and furniture decompose.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by slavik81 on Monday July 18, 2022 @11:40AM (#32139609)
After a tree dies, how long does it take before it returns all its carbon to the atmosphere?
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by AvocadoPanic on Monday July 18, 2022 @09:07AM (#32137871)
You could even cut them down and turn them into houses that people could live in.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by BurningFrog on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:04AM (#32138511)
We don't need that many houses.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by ipqk on Monday July 18, 2022 @09:10AM (#32137918)
The easiest way to support tropical rainforest is to eat less beef. The amazon is cleared for cattle grazing, much of which is imported into America.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by myshpa on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:16AM (#32138654)
You're certainly right. Even EU imports soya from amazon to feed its cows.

Not eating beef / meat / dairy is the single best thing one can do to help.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by greedo on Monday July 18, 2022 @09:30AM (#32138130)
Source? From what I've seen, most beef imports into the US come from Canada, Mexico, then Australia.

https://www.beefmagazine.com/beef-quality/update-us-cattle-e...

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by lucb1e on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:29PM (#32140855)
This "my particular country doesn't import most of its cattle from Brazil" doesn't mean that you're not creating demand and perhaps also influencing the market in a way that someone's beef is. (Collectively, obviously.) The argument sounds similar to "but my country isn't polluting, it's China where we order all our stuff!" And, yeah, animal feed like others already said. It's all not quite as simple as "source? I don't believe I'm part of the problem by creating demand for meat here" coming from the country where the average person contributes the most to global warming
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by greedo on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:40PM (#32140978)
The OP was clearly saying that the importation of beef into America was causing clearing of the Amazon, when the link is a bit more complicated. Yes, some things are a bit fungible in the world economy, some trade tariffs encourage things like soya from Brazil for food etc. But just nailing the US for it when the EU, Japan, and China is just as culpable is silly.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by lucb1e on Monday July 18, 2022 @02:05PM (#32141363)
> The OP was clearly saying that the importation of beef into America was causing clearing of the Amazon

I don't see them mentioning the Amazon or hinting that the USA's imports are contributing there, but maybe I'm misreading their comment then (also when re-reading it now I don't see what you're referring to). Oh, or are you referring to the link they posted rather than their comment itself?

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by greedo on Monday July 18, 2022 @03:53PM (#32142795)
"The easiest way to support tropical rainforest is to eat less beef. The amazon is cleared for cattle grazing, much of which is imported into America."
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by abrambleninja on Monday July 18, 2022 @02:13PM (#32141466)
In addition to what ipqk said, a large amount of deforestation is for growing soy. Approximately 77% of global soy production [2] is used for producing animal feed. It's much more environmentally friendly to just get eat soy directly, rather than eat meat, because animals are very inefficient at converting food they eat to food that people can eat [2].

[1]: https://ourworldindata.org/soy [2]: https://awellfedworld.org/feed-ratios/

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by kawsper on Monday July 18, 2022 @12:02PM (#32139851)
Denmark imports 1650000 metric tons soya from south america yearly to feed to animals.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by mistrial9 on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:06AM (#32138531)
quick search for Beef (carcass weight) per month, international trade with the USA, for Dec. 2021, shows Canada, Mexico as number one and two, but Brazil as a close number three. In that month and year, the trade with Australia is very low.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by woobar on Monday July 18, 2022 @02:26PM (#32141607)
It is a recent change:

In January 2022 alone, Brazilian beef imports registered a more than 500% increase.

Record high U.S. beef prices and drought-impacted supplies in Australia, where the U.S. would otherwise source beef, have also contributed to growing imports of processing-grade beef from Brazil

https://www.beefmagazine.com/news/us-beef-imports-brazil-sur...

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by greedo on Monday July 18, 2022 @03:53PM (#32142804)
Shipping issues undoubtedly were an issue with Australia.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by TravelPiglet on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:44AM (#32137096)
Less wood they need to import as well
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by 11235813213455 on Monday July 18, 2022 @12:09PM (#32139924)
or both
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by bmitc on Monday July 18, 2022 @09:57AM (#32138418)
Just a note that two of the best things you can do for your own carbon emissions is to compost all organic material instead of throwing it out and planting native plants, trees, shrubs, and reducing the size of your lawn while also mowing what's left less frequently.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Schiendelman on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:39AM (#32138937)
That’s like a 1% impact compared to biking instead of driving.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by bmitc on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:43PM (#32141011)
If everyone did it, it would mean double digit percentages in reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. And they are two things everyone can do today and is actually actionable. Native plants have far more benefits than just carbon capture. And by the way, decomposing organic waste in landfills emits methane, which is several more times potent as a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. So yes, it matters.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Schiendelman on Monday July 18, 2022 @03:37PM (#32142564)
It would not result in a double digit reduction. It would result in a tiny reduction. Please source it if you think residential compost would have a double digit impact. I honestly suspect it might be less than 1% of household emissions.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by bmitc on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:46PM (#32169508)
It’s hard to convince people who have made up their own mind. I’ve posted links here before. It’s a complicated matter, but there is material that addresses this. Just search “compost greenhouse emissions”.

And note that my statement also included restoring native plants. We cannot survive on agriculture without pollinators, and given that forest cover has been reduced from around 70% to 20% in less than a century, it’s not hard to believe. Just look around you and notice the expanse of lawns around you. Lawns do almost nothing. They don’t support wildlife, pollinators, and they don’t capture carbon.

And like I said, this is something people can do now. People can’t magically start driving electric cars fueled by green energy or start driving substantially less or rework city and nation transportation infrastructure. It’s actually debatable how much electric cars will reduce emissions. I think it’s not much. Same for so-called green energy.

The benefits of composting and retiring native plants are undeniable.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by yownie on Monday July 18, 2022 @11:04PM (#32147070)
Are you factoring in the reduction in ICE exhaust from having to haul less trash mass overall away?
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Schiendelman on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:59AM (#32161591)
That might take it from 0.2% to 0.3%. It’s nothing. Stop driving to work every day, if you want to have impact.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by woodruffw on Monday July 18, 2022 @11:04AM (#32139216)
Which means that you should prioritize it relative to cycling instead of driving, not ignore it entirely.

(More concretely: individuals cycle, while household units generally compost together. A household of 4 produces a nontrivial amount of compostable waste and diverting it can be a significant ecological outcome, especially if it's replacing purchases of topsoil or artificial fertilizer. It also makes taking the trash out more pleasant, since it doesn't spend days rotting indoors before being tossed to the curb.)

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Schiendelman on Monday July 18, 2022 @11:18AM (#32139369)
A household of 4 also drives at least twice as much as a single person. 2%.

If you’re spending your limited time and effort on 2% measures we’ve all already lost.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by woodruffw on Monday July 18, 2022 @11:49AM (#32139710)
My household drives 0%, because we live in a major city. I don't even have a valid drivers' license. I already bike or take public transit to work every day.

> If you’re spending your limited time and effort on 2% measures we’ve all already lost.

We're talking about one measure, one that's specifically coextensive with managing your waste (assuming you don't throw your trash into a pile in the corner of your room). It takes me no extra time to throw a banana peel in the compost bin instead of the trash can; they're right next to each other.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Schiendelman on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:00AM (#32161605)
If all this is true about you, you aren’t the target audience.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by lucb1e on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:40PM (#32140985)
From a quick search (not some verified peer reviewed source deep dive), transportation seems to be about 30% and food 17% of USA household emissions. Calling it 1% is marginalizing the impact people can have with a very simple change.

Also note that buying a different product in the supermarket is an entirely different order of magnitude than changing your life around so that you can cycle to work without less free time / degrading quality of life. I'd argue there's sense to recommending doing low hanging fruit.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Schiendelman on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:00AM (#32161600)
Comments like yours are why we can’t solve climate change. You must realize how wrong your math is?
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by yellowapple on Monday July 18, 2022 @04:04PM (#32142957)
And both combined are like a 1% impact compared to switching to solar/wind/geothermal/nuclear instead of fossil fuels.

We need institutional solutions; we can't afford to punt climate change to individual choices.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Schiendelman on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:34AM (#32164229)
I completely agree. But without the individual choices, the institutional change never gets a constituency.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by changoplatanero on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:42AM (#32138962)
If I have cardboard and paper scraps and stuff is it better to compost it at home or put it in the city recycling bin?
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by woodruffw on Monday July 18, 2022 @11:09AM (#32139251)
This probably depends on the quality and volume of your paper waste. If it's junk mail (weather treated, bleached and dyed), then putting it in your compost is likely to do more harm than good. On the other hand, if it's mostly minimally processed cardboard, you shred it and mix it into your food waste[1].

[1]: https://helpmecompost.com/home-composting/implementation/how...

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by frxx on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:08AM (#32136815)
Can you let me know the project you're donating to? I'm interested as well.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by toto444 on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:11AM (#32136833)
I send my donations to this project : https://www.plantatreeiniceland.is .
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by frxx on Monday July 25, 2022 @01:29AM (#32220817)
Thank you, I donated as well.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by mynameishere on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:21AM (#32136907)
That is insane. Why not just spew less carbon? Cut out the middleman.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by TrueGeek on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:23AM (#32136921)
Maybe he does both
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by baryphonic on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:10AM (#32138582)
People are free to do what they want in the privacy of their homes on their own time, but I for one do not enjoy asphyxiation.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by dfxm12 on Monday July 18, 2022 @09:26AM (#32138087)
Most of us live in capitalist societies, where it is ingrained into people that capital can solve all of our problems & that short term capital gain is more important than anything else. This is a case where it will not, since we can't buy our way to a new planet. :(
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by bloppe on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:25AM (#32136944)
I love spewing carbon
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by seunosewa on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:17AM (#32136876)
What percentage of your carbon footprint do you reckon that your donation is offsetting?
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by fsloth on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:51AM (#32137157)
As a sidenote: "Carbon footprint" as a concept is mostly about industry gaslighting consumers. The original intent was to divert attention from industrial policy to consumer choice. Unfortunately the consumer has very little choice all in all as our economy runs on fossil fuels and individual choice matters very little [0].

"Carbon footprint" was originally invented by the public relations agency Ogilvy & Mather for BP as a concept to divert attention from industry to individuals.

https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sh...

That's not to say that public pressure is not a good thing. It is. But the actual causal effect it has for a better future is in the form of creating political sentiment. Individual carbon economy is mostly about promoting a political sentiment via signaling.

But generally it's a fools errand trying to scientifically balance your "carbon footprint" since this was not an engineering concept to start with. If it makes you feel good to plant trees do it! Trees are awesome. Buying less stuff you don't need is also always good I think. For example I use my cell phones until something irrevocably gives up and drive my current car as long as possible (generally making a new car is always more resource consuming than driving the current one I think).

[0] For example Vaclaw Smil "How the world really works" discusses our fossil fuel based economy at length

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by morsch on Monday July 18, 2022 @09:01AM (#32137820)
The article claims that a PR campaign "popularized" the term "carbon footprint" in 2000. That's pretty vague and I'm not going to dispute it. The article doesn't claim BP coined the phrase.

In German, it's more common to refer to an ecological footprint, its usage which goes back to at least 1992, and it wasn't coined by a PR company, but by very straight laced environmentalists.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/095624789200400212

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by avgcorrection on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:31AM (#32138839)
Ecological footprint is where BPs spinoff/appropriation comes from.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by lucb1e on Monday July 18, 2022 @01:53PM (#32141143)
Ah yes, the obligatory "we don't have a responsibility, that's just a BP invention from the 90s". It's always the evil bigcorps, of course.

I don't know whether BP falsified the evidence here, but everything kinda points towards that it really is the consumers that drive demand.

> generally it's a fools errand trying to scientifically balance your "carbon footprint"

How would you, then, unscientifically solve climate change if we aren't supposed to take individual action to bring our own footprint to net zero, encourage others to do the same, and bring about societal change using market pressure and all that?

> If it makes you feel good to plant trees do it! Trees are awesome.

But if the "you" in this sentence is being made to feel good for the wrong reasons, isn't that dishonest? Shouldn't we be looking at what is actually effective use of your money, and not let people fall for feel-good tree planting only for them to find out ten years down the line that their hard-earned money went into /dev/null and they should have done (and could have been told about) something like meat reduction or solar panels instead?

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by belorn on Monday July 18, 2022 @05:12PM (#32143795)
> How would you, then, unscientifically solve climate change if we aren't supposed to take individual action to bring our own footprint to net zero, encourage others to do the same, and bring about societal change using market pressure and all that?

The simple answer is to vote, and if you can spare the time/money/effort to go and become political active.

Removing coal/oil/natural gas plants won't occur without political will. We need political will to build out rail infrastructure, regulating air/boat fuels, changing subsidies for fossil fuels into emission free alternatives, prioritize bike/pedestrian infrastructure, and so on.

Right now we had politicians in EU voting that natural gas is "green", driving primarily by a specific political party in Germany, and now the same people are turning on coal and oil power plants. Societal change need to start with replacing people in power that view fossil fuel as a tool to be used rather than something that should be left in the ground. No individual action can get near to undo the damage that those politicians are doing by allowing fossil fuels to be burned.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Paradigma11 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:35AM (#32149364)
Gas makes sense as a reliable backup power generation if you are intent on building wind/solar. This is still a net positive since hopefully you dont need that much and its better than currently used coal/oil.

Ofcourse if you get your gas from a not so friendly imperialistic autocrat who decides to go full in on military territorial expansion and uses gas as a economic weapon you are screwed and need to do whatever you can and is necessary.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by belorn on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:12AM (#32151736)
If you intend to grow tress in order to offset the gas burned as "backup power generation" then you will run out of land, and given the fact that climate change is already here and doing harm, there isn't land enough to both combat the harm done in the past and offset harm done today.

Gas is a terrible for backup for wind/solar, especially further up north. Even in countries who in optimal weather can have 100% energy from wind (Denmark reached this a while back), gas and other fossil fuel power plants are still the single highest source of emissions by a large margin. Wind operate on average around 40-60%, which mean that half the energy used has to be sourced elsewhere. When ~50% of your energy comes from "backup", then the word "backup" looses its meaning, and that is in fairly good situation where wind has been built out to have 100% capacity.

I could see an argument for gas if it was used less than 1%, and with a decrease use as the grid expanded their capacity, but that is not the reality we got in northern Europe. Instead we see an increase in fossil fuels usage each year. With increase use we also get increased prices, with energy prices being exceptional high and rising. Politically this is a terrible loss for everyone except those investing into fossil fuels, and in the current economical downturn, fossil fuel companies are doing very well at the moment.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Dylan16807 on Monday July 18, 2022 @04:30PM (#32143249)
> Ah yes, the obligatory "we don't have a responsibility, that's just a BP invention from the 90s". It's always the evil bigcorps, of course.

They didn't say that.

> How would you, then, unscientifically solve climate change if we aren't supposed to take individual action to bring our own footprint to net zero, encourage others to do the same, and bring about societal change using market pressure and all that?

The individual action here is minor. Market pressure can work but only in certain circumstances. They already suggested working on political sentiment, since laws can do a lot here to tax or force certain methods.

> But if the "you" in this sentence is being made to feel good for the wrong reasons, isn't that dishonest? Shouldn't we be looking at what is actually effective use of your money [...]

I'm pretty sure the person you're responding to is also an advocate for effective use of money, specifically by focusing on the wider changes and not focusing much on the carbon footprint concept.

But you don't have to spend all your money on improving the world as much as possible.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by fsloth on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:40AM (#32150155)
Consumers cannot decarbonize the economy by their choice because fossil fuels are used in everything at some point in their value chain.

It’s not about will you fly or take the train. The food we eat, the clothes we wear - everything has fossil fuel inputs at some point.

One can choose to consume less. Buy second hand etc. Then the fossil inputs in mining, transport, farming and whatnot will not be repeated.

Consumer choice electricity? You can’t choose non-fossil based electricity unless someone has invested large amounts of capital in e.g wind power.

The only thing that can affect things this large is industrial policy which again in democratic countries needs political support.

That’s why consumer carbon footprint is gaslighting. The individual choise does not exist, and trying to spin the carbon economy narrative towards consumer responsibility was a backhanded attempt to delay the energy transition which only the war in Ukraine launched to a better trajectory.

I was not suggesting people spend all of their money planting trees. I was thinking it in the context that sometimes people want to do something symbolic with extra cash that makes them feel better. It was not intended as a moral imperitive.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by avgcorrection on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:59AM (#32137233)
Correct. It got to the point where BP couldn’t just straight up deny man-made climate change. So they had to point the finger at someone else.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by mistrial9 on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:11AM (#32138600)
this is not the whole story -- a Swiss do-gooder in the San Francisco Bay Area had a "Carbon Footprint" project running for quite a while (still?) .. he was nerdy and sincere. His close staff certainly were sincere. If there was someone taking Oil money, they didn't show it.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by Schiendelman on Monday July 18, 2022 @10:41AM (#32138951)
Plenty of well meaning people want to do better personally and don’t realize that they’re shifting the discussion to a damaging frame. It happens all over politics!
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by toto444 on Monday July 18, 2022 @07:26AM (#32136950)
I don't really know and I've been wondering for a while. HN might be the best place to get an informed answer.

Here is my reasoning. Say I give enough to plant 10 trees a month. In 10 years that's 1,200 trees. Let's say half of them die, we're left with 600. Assuming a tree absorb 1 ton of CO2 throughout its life, that 600 tons. I live in a place where CO2 emissions per capita are about 6 tons a year (check for yourself here and don't forget to compare with the US https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-other-greenhouse-gas-emis... ).

According to this back of the enveloppe calculation after 10 years I would have planted enough trees to offset 100 years of carbon emissions.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by simongray on Monday July 18, 2022 @08:03AM (#32137270)
I just "bought" 21 trees as a gift to someone (to be planted in Denmark, not Iceland). This amount supposedly offsets what the average Danish person emits in a month according to the organisation I bought it from. Not sure where you're from, but the average American emits something like 2.5 times what the average Dane does, so that would work out to ~60 trees that need to planted monthly (if you're American). Obviously, your mileage may vary.

In any case, it really puts into perspective how messed up our continued use of fossil fuels is.

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by toto444 on Monday July 18, 2022 @08:08AM (#32137315)
Thanks for the correction.

Just found this estimate 'the average tree absorbs an average of 10 kilograms, or 22 pounds, of carbon dioxide per year for the first 20 years.' My quick calculation of 1 ton of CO2 being absorbed is off by a factor of five then (200kg over 20 years).

Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by yownie on Monday July 18, 2022 @11:08PM (#32147092)
Another interesting metric for you, the average Icelander wastes 8x the electricity an EU mainland counterpart does.
Re:Iceland’s forest and bush cover has increased sixfold sin... by asdff on Monday July 18, 2022 @02:51PM (#32141953)
There are also islands in croatia and all over the med that are barren from venetian shipbuilding centuries ago as well. Shipbuilding stripped a lot of forests in europe.