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Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by xyzzyz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @12:44PM (#31935150)
The headlines aren’t entirely wrong. If you look at the conservative majority opinions, you’ll find that indeed, it’s about the relevant legal issues, ie. what the law actually says. On the other hand, if you read liberal dissents, they’re mostly about what they think appropriate policy should be.

In this particular case, the majority opinion starts off by quoting the relevant statute and analyzing its meaning, whereas the dissent starts off by saying (quoting) that “climate change is the most pressing environmental challenge of our time”, and continues with a long litany of how bad it is.

Really, I find the entire thing to be rather crazy: if the Congress wants EPA to regulate emissions the way they tried to do, all it needs to do is to pass a law explicitly instructing it to do so. Of course, it won’t, because there is no political will in Congress to pass this. At the same time, the EPA’s argument in this case was that the Congress has already delegated this to EPA. Considering that the Congress won’t pass a law confirming that yes, it did in fact delegate authority to execute these particular regulations (which, again, would render the entire SCOTUS decision irrelevant), I find the EPA’s argument of rather dubious quality.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by ceejayoz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @12:55PM (#31935292)
> If you look at the conservative majority opinions, you’ll find that indeed, it’s about the relevant legal issues, ie. what the law actually says.

Qualified immunity and asset forfeiture would like a word.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by drewrv on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:18PM (#31935592)
This term alone the "conservative majority opinions" have been downright contradictory on "relevant legal issues". Women now have a right to defend their life with a gun but cannot defend their life with healthcare.

It's clear that they are simply using "originalism" to cherry pick what falls in line with their personal opinions.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by InTheArena on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:47PM (#31935961)
This is a (deliberate) misreading.

The Supreme Court stated that you could not apply handgun laws in a way that privileged one group over another. Historically, if you were black, no gun. White and knew the governor? Weapon up.

The supreme court's policies have been pretty straightforward if you read the constitution. The legislature has the responsibility to write the law. Not the supreme court (which is un-elected), not bureaucrats (who are un-elected) - without explicit law to make it possible.

The fact that everyone is screaming that an unelected bunch of mostly white folks are returning power to congress and telling them - no, be democratic - reveals a awful lot about the current state of the United States.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by ceejayoz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:08PM (#31936234)
> The Supreme Court stated that you could not apply handgun laws in a way that privileged one group over another.

Claiming this in the same post you accuse someone else of "deliberate misreading" is a bit funny.

New York State Rifle & Pistol Association Inc. v. Bruen goes substantially further than that.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by mlindner on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:01AM (#31943974)
The supreme court didn't take away the ability to get abortions. It just moved jurisdiction to states instead of at the federal level because there is absolutely no mention of abortion in the Constitution, when there absolute is mention of guns in the Constitution.

The majority of states in the US will have the same abortion laws they have always had.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by nswest23 on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:43AM (#31945619)
Define 'gun.'

If there was a handheld contraption with a trigger that could fire a small nuclear projectile that could destroy an entire city would the right to have one be protected by the second amendment just because it fits the general definition of a gun?

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by mlindner on Saturday July 02, 2022 @12:56AM (#31956384)
I'm not going to play semantics games.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by nswest23 on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:20AM (#32070361)
It's not a game. The founders could not have foreseen the types of weapons that we quite arbitrarily consider to be 'guns' as described in the constitution, therefore if anyone is playing games it is the people who call themselves 'originalists' when they pretend that it is that philosophy that informs their judicial opinions.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by xyzzyz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @05:28PM (#31938861)
> Women now have a right to defend their life with a gun but cannot defend their life with healthcare.

You are just illustrating my exact point. Right to keep and bear arms is explicitly secured in the Constitution that it “shall not be infringed”, whereas nothing of this sort is clearly and explicitly said about abortion rights. Here, again, conservatives focus on what the law actually says, and liberals focus on their preferred policy, and if their preferred policy is not to be clearly and explicitly found in the law, it is instead found in the “emanations of the penumbra”.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by ceejayoz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @05:53PM (#31939150)
> Right to keep and bear arms is explicitly secured in the Constitution

An individual right to keep and bear arms was newly discovered in 2008, in a 5-4 decision. It took 220 years for a single vote majority to find evidence of it.

> it is instead found in the “emanations of the penumbra”

That's a funny way of describing the Ninth Amendment.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by remarkEon on Thursday June 30, 2022 @08:47PM (#31940715)
The pushback on the "individual right" thing is always so funny to me, because if you really believe that 2A was about membership in a "militia" then it's meaning is that the government can't disarm itself.

It's truly hilarious, given the context of when it was written.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by ceejayoz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @10:03PM (#31941323)
That's not the definition of militia at the time the Constitution was written.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)

> During colonial America, all able-bodied men of a certain age range were members of the militia, depending on each colony's rule. Individual towns formed local independent militias for their own defense.

Even today, there are organized, state-run militia (the National Guard) and unorganized, independent militia.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by remarkEon on Thursday June 30, 2022 @11:21PM (#31941936)
I think you're deliberately missing my point, which is that to take your position literally you have to think 2A was about making a rule to keep only a state-run organization armed right after they had just fought (and won) a war of independence using, among others, individuals and "unorganized, independent militia" and the weapons they personally owned. It truly strains credulity to think the Founders sat down and wrote with that intent. Plus, you can actually just go back and read what they wrote about their reasoning back then if you want. It's all in the public record. That it took the Court this long to actually have to say it is more a function of the deliberate gaslighting that's taken place in the 20th century to convince people this right never existed. Even in Dred Scott Chief Justice Taney noted that if African slaves were given citizenship they'd be allowed to "keep and carry arms wherever they want".
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by s1artibartfast on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:59AM (#31944697)
I never thought about what the inverse intent would have to be. It is so obvious.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by remarkEon on Friday July 01, 2022 @11:11AM (#31947496)
I think most people that actually follow the "it was about membership in the militia" interpretation really do believe that only the government should be allowed to have weapons. That's fine, and there's an argument to be made there, but I'd appreciate it if they just made that argument rather than rewriting history.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by joshuamorton on Thursday June 30, 2022 @05:49PM (#31939090)
> Right to keep and bear arms is explicitly secured in the Constitution that it “shall not be infringed”,

Only in the context of a well-regulated militia, at least until Scalia amended the Constitution in Heller.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by iostream24 on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:24AM (#31944504)
The entire second amendment here: “ A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Notice the first phrase. Absolutely nothing here says “every Joe wacko can have military grade arms in case they want to overthrow the government “

Tell me it’s originalism to interpret the words above in any way other than what it reads as: a description of state militias.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by s1artibartfast on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:55AM (#31944676)
>Tell me it’s originalism to interpret the words above in any way other than what it reads as: a description of state militias

Regulated means armed with military grade guns, and is not a description of legal oversight (eg regulations)

"A well regulated Militia" literally meant a military armed citizenry.

The intent was to have no paid or professional military and the military was to consist of citizens bringing their arms from home to fight with.

2nd amendment can be losslessly paraphrased:

"because it is important to form well armed mobs, every Joe wacko can have military grade arms"

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by iostream24 on Tuesday July 05, 2022 @06:36AM (#31986541)
No way!

It literally says a well regulated militia. Fact.

Spare me your creative interpretation masquerading as originalism

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by syrrim on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:04PM (#31935415)
If congress disagreed with this interpretation, they could pass a law explicitly ruling it out. The power of the supreme court in this regard relies on the fact that congress has great difficulty passing any law at all, and thus whatever interpretation given by the supreme court is likely to persist.

>If you look at the conservative majority opinions, you’ll find that indeed, it’s about the relevant legal issues, ie. what the law actually says.

The dissertation focuses on that. The actual reasoning might be based on something else. The court is strongly interested in projecting an image of being neutral, and of only going off of the wording of laws, rather than involving their own biases. Thus, the majority opinion should be read as an attempt to assign such a motive to their decision, whereas the dissenting opinions attempt to assign the opposite motive. That is, they attempt to suggest that the majority ruled this way because they are insufficiently worried about climate change.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by tablespoon on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:08PM (#31935466)
> If congress disagreed with this interpretation, they could pass a law explicitly ruling it out.

But that would be backwards and wrong (like a default-allow firewall rule).

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by xyzzyz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @05:31PM (#31938898)
In fact, it would be even worse than you say, because it would not be applied in a principled and consistent way. In actual practice, it would be default-allow if convenient, and default-forbid if not.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by rat87 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:15PM (#31935557)
No that would be correct. Congress delegated the power of they don't want to do that anymore they should take it away
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by tablespoon on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:43PM (#31935904)
> No that would be correct. Congress delegated the power of they don't want to do that anymore they should take it away

No, they didn't. Congress delegating to the EPA (for instance) the power to regulate CFCs to save the ozone layer, does not also delegate the power to the EPA to regulate CO2 to solve global warming.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by ceejayoz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @06:46PM (#31939666)
The Clean Air Act didn’t say “regulate CFCs”, though. It told the EPA to regulate pollutants.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2013-title42/html...

> The Administrator shall periodically review the list established by this subsection and publish the results thereof and, where appropriate, revise such list by rule, adding pollutants which present, or may present, through inhalation or other routes of exposure, a threat of adverse human health effects (including, but not limited to, substances which are known to be, or may reasonably be anticipated to be, carcinogenic, mutagenic, teratogenic, neurotoxic, which cause reproductive dysfunction, or which are acutely or chronically toxic) or adverse environmental effects whether through ambient concentrations, bioaccumulation, deposition, or otherwise, but not including releases subject to regulation under subsection (r) of this section as a result of emissions to the air.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by iostream24 on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:25AM (#31944521)
Yes, it does.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by aaron_m04 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @04:20PM (#31938042)
> [...] if the Congress wants EPA to regulate emissions the way they tried to do, all it needs to do is to pass a law explicitly instructing it to do so. Of course, it won’t, because there is no political will in Congress to pass this.

At this stage in the climate crisis, we really need to be focused on direct results of political actions. The majority of the US population wants regulations to fight climate change, and the consensus among climate scientists is that if we don't aggressively cut carbon emissions immediately, things will get really out of hand. Therefore, if the Supreme Court is reducing the EPA's ability to help this, it is both anti-democratic and massively harmful to the public good. It really doesn't matter that the EPA is executive overreach according to some document written 230 years ago.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by xyzzyz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @04:46PM (#31938385)
No, I strongly disagree. If elected representatives cannot agree on what is proper policy and pass it as law, I for one do not want some nameless bureaucrats be the ones calling the shots. Unelected bureaucrats creating policy as they wish, unconstrained by what the law actually says, is what actually is undemocratic.

Look, even as there might be general agreement among the people to fight climate change, there might be little to no agreement among the people as to how to actually proceed doing that. Because of this, you cannot say that blocking EPA here is undemocratic, because “ majority of the US population wants regulations to fight climate change”: it is very much untrue that majority of people want the exact policy that EPA tries to introduce, and have it be executed by EPA. It’s like saying that majority of US population want regulations to improve their commute times, so SCOTUS cannot block DoT from eminent-domaining land through cities and building 10 lane highways on it. Some people want that, sure, but others want more trains or zoning regulations to improve walkability, and there is no majority agreement here on the details of the policy. You certainly don’t want unelected bureaucrats with no accountability to voters be deciding major issues like that.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by aaron_m04 on Friday July 01, 2022 @01:28AM (#31942712)
We are in such a desperate situation with the climate that we pretty much have to look at which of the two is most likely to enact policies that cut carbon emissions: is it the EPA, or Congress?
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by native_samples on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:54AM (#31944665)
The current situation is not in any way desperate. All claims that a desperate crisis exists are based on the assumption of feedback loops that do not yet show up in any actual data and in fact many temperature datasets e.g. from satellites, weather balloons or the USA's own state of the art surface temperature network show virtually no warming at all for decades. To see warming you have to look at heavily modified composite datasets that are constantly being revised using methodologies so extreme that they literally create entirely new trends where the raw data doesn't contain any.

In an environment with as much epistemic uncertainty as climatology has, it is madness to allow bureaucrats to control anything at all. They are in no way fit to make important decisions on scientific topics.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by aaron_m04 on Sunday July 03, 2022 @02:51AM (#31965662)
Your claims are really beyond belief. They fly in the face of everything I've seen these past several years. No warming, really?
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by remarkEon on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:11PM (#31935503)
Indeed, the reaction to this from lawmakers is really perplexing. They're claiming that the Court is "rogue" or something, but if you actually read what they wrote they are returning power from the executive to congress (or making it clear that Congress always had this power, not the executive). The reaction makes me think there are many lawmakers who are rather uninterested in making laws, and instead actually do want to see unelected Judges and executive bureaucrats implement their preferred policy options instead of doing the (hard) work of writing and passing those policies themselves.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by WalterBright on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:13PM (#31936292)
If lawmakers leave the legislation to the Court, they can't be blamed for the outcome, and they remain free to grandstand for the cameras.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by JamesBarney on Thursday June 30, 2022 @12:51PM (#31935247)
The roe v Wade decision seemed to follow a similar pattern with the conservative opinion being about how there isn't really a basis for a constitutional right to an abortion up to viability (seems true) and the liberal dissenting opinion was about how the decision was going to be bad for women (also true) and how this opens up the floodgates to reversing a lot of other important supreme court decisions ( not sure how true that is)
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by TylerE on Thursday June 30, 2022 @12:57PM (#31935324)
I’m waiting for the first lawsuit against the DEA. What in the constitution gives the right for the Fedwral Government to regulate what we voluntarily put in our bodies or grow in our back yards?
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by tablespoon on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:09PM (#31935478)
> I’m waiting for the first lawsuit against the DEA. What in the constitution gives the right for the Fedwral Government to regulate what we voluntarily put in our bodies or grow in our back yards?

My bet? "Interstate commerce."

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by giantg2 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:18PM (#31935585)
Yep. They can prevent growing your own wheat (in large quantity) because it impacts interstate wheat markets. You can literally bend this to apply to anything on that logic.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by benmmurphy on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:30PM (#31935751)
it feels kind of inconsistent. prior to roe being overturned the governments were able to regulate abortion to some extent. i assume some abortion medical procedures required a licensed doctor and i assume abortion medicine was regulated by the FDA. but at the same time the government was limited in how it could restrict abortion and this was justified by some privacy right which somehow didn't apply to the FDA regulation of abortion or medical licensing related to abortion. also, this same privacy right couldn't be invoked to allow you to take other medicines you might want. if you look at the arguments made in Roe v Wade I'm pretty sure you could claim you are taking recreational drugs as part of your marital sex routine and therefore this right to privacy should be extended to these drugs. i think if you honestly extended the general principal of roe v wade then a let of laws would be unconstitutional.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by cronix on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:51PM (#31936845)
And if you're not engaged in any sort of commerce? Just hanging out on your own land consuming what you grew for yourself, like carrots?
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by plainolrandy on Thursday June 30, 2022 @03:17PM (#31937222)
Believe it or not, also interstate commerce.

Seriously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by TylerE on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:19PM (#31935597)
Doesn’t work if it’s produced, distributed, and consumed entirely in a single state.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by tablespoon on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:28PM (#31935722)
> Doesn’t work if it’s produced, distributed, and consumed entirely in a single state.

No, according to the Supreme Court, it's interstate commerce if a butterfly bats its wings and the resulting hurricane causes someone to buy a raincoat in another state.

IIRC, the actual case involved someone growing wheat their own land that they didn't even plan to sell. But since wheat was sold in interstate commerce, the court said any activity involving involving wheat could be regulated as interstate commerce.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by ceejayoz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:31PM (#31935761)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v._Raich says otherwise.

https://www.oyez.org/cases/2004/03-1454

> The majority argued that Congress could ban local marijuana use because it was part of such a "class of activities": the national marijuana market. Local use affected supply and demand in the national marijuana market, making the regulation of intrastate use "essential" to regulating the drug's national market.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by quickthrowman on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:43PM (#31935909)
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by giantg2 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:10PM (#31935484)
I've had a similar thought process. We had an implicit right to privacy for abortion, but not for practically anything else (a couple other things, but some of them were also bizarre. Like how can you have privacy over who you marry if you're required to get a license before hand and they can still ban some classes/conditions but not others). If it is a right, it should apply universally. If not, then we need to start creating those rights in the constitution (where it requires larger agreement and isn't as easy to overturn). But maybe I'm crazy.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by cronix on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:49PM (#31936821)
> We had an implicit right to privacy for abortion,

RBG didn't see it that way.

“Roe isn’t really about the woman’s choice, is it?” Ginsburg said. “It’s about the doctor’s freedom to practice…it wasn’t woman-centered, it was physician-centered.”

“My criticism of Roe is that it seemed to have stopped the momentum on the side of change,” Ginsburg said. She would’ve preferred that abortion rights be secured more gradually, in a process that included state legislatures and the courts, she added. Ginsburg also was troubled that the focus on Roe was on a right to privacy, rather than women’s rights."

https://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/justice-ruth-bader-ginsbur...

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by tick_tock_tick on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:01PM (#31936151)
Consumption isn't illegal just possession.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by gernb on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:27PM (#31936505)
Seriously curious. If I consume somthing, don't I now posses it (it's in my body) or didn't I have to posses it for at least a moment (in order to consume it)

I'm just curious in what ways this distinction would play out. I can see if "consuming" was illegal and "possession" was not logically works but it's harder to see how "consuming" is legal and "possession" is not doesn't effectively make "consuming" also illegal.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by bashinator on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:08PM (#31935465)
Why stop at “grow”? I don’t see why the federal government should have any say over in what chemicals I might want to purchase or manufacture.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by TylerE on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:18PM (#31935586)
There is a bit of a your fist/my face issue. I don’t want my neighbor operating a meth lab in his shed or building an atomic pile.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by bashinator on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:37PM (#31936649)
Devil's advocate: (I won't take on the atomic pile question since we're talking about consumables)

Operating a meth lab is dangerous _because_ it's illegal. If it were regulated and licensed, it would be no more dangerous than say operating an 18-wheel rig.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:15AM (#31945363)
Your comparison only holds if the rig is filled with the dangerous constituent chemicals, which are also regulated by government.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by bashinator on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:31PM (#31948913)
Exactly. Regulated, not banned.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by EricDeb on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:23PM (#31935632)
And this is where their hypocrisy will show because they will absolutely find a way to allow the DEA to remain
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by baggy_trough on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:28PM (#31936523)
Nothing whatsoever. That's why most of what the federal government does is unlawful.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by scarface74 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:30PM (#31935747)
Is there a constitutional right to marry someone of another race? (Loving vs Virginia). Is there a constitutional right for gay people to get married (Obergefell vs Hodges)? Is there a constitutional right to buy contraceptive?

Guess which two of those Thomas wants to revisit and the one he probably doesn’t?

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by specialist on Thursday June 30, 2022 @12:59PM (#31935361)
More specifically, the dissenting opinion argues that the right to abortion logically follows from all the prior rights granted to women, eg own property, voting, divorce.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by JamesBarney on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:24PM (#31935650)
It's my understanding it's argued the right to an abortion is given from the 14th amendment.

I didn't really see anything from the dissenting opinion about how the right to an abortion is given by women's right to voting, property or divorce (?).

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by specialist on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:02PM (#31936162)
How could they have been more explicit? From the dissent (emphasis mine):

JUSTICE BREYER, JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR, and JUSTICE KAGAN, dissenting.

For half a century, Roe v. Wade, and Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, have protected the liberty and equality of women. Roe held, and Casey reaffirmed, that the Constitution safeguards a woman’s right to decide for herself whether to bear a child. Roe held, and Casey reaffirmed, that in the first stages of pregnancy, the government could not make that choice for women. The government could not control a woman’s body or the course of a woman’s life: It could not determine what the woman’s future would be. Respecting a woman as an autonomous being, and granting her full equality, meant giving her substantial choice over this most personal and most consequential of all life decisions.

...

Whatever the exact scope of the coming laws, one result of today’s decision is certain: the curtailment of women’s rights, and of their status as free and equal citizens. Yesterday, the Constitution guaranteed that a woman confronted with an unplanned pregnancy could (within reasonable limits) make her own decision about whether to bear a child, with all the life-transforming consequences that act involves. And in thus safeguarding each woman’s reproductive freedom, the Constitution also protected “[t]he ability of women to participate equally in [this Nation’s] economic and social life.”. But no longer. As of today, this Court holds, a State can always force a woman to give birth, prohibiting even the earliest abortions. A State can thus transform what, when freely undertaken, is a wonder into what, when forced, may be a nightmare. Some women, especially women of means, will find ways around the State’s assertion of power. Others—those without money or childcare or the ability to take time off from work—will not be so fortunate. Maybe they will try an un- safe method of abortion, and come to physical harm, or even die. Maybe they will undergo pregnancy and have a child, but at significant personal or familial cost. At the least, they will incur the cost of losing control of their lives. The Constitution will, today’s majority holds, provide no shield, despite its guarantees of liberty and equality for all.

...

The right Roe and Casey recognized does not stand alone. To the contrary, the Court has linked it for decades to other settled freedoms involving bodily integrity, familial relationships, and procreation. Most obviously, the right to terminate a pregnancy arose straight out of the right to purchase and use contraception. In turn, those rights led, more recently, to rights of same-sex intimacy and marriage. They are all part of the same constitutional fabric, protecting autonomous decisionmaking over the most personal of life decisions.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by comex on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:43PM (#31936736)
The argument is that the right to abortion follows from the 14th Amendment's guarantee that "liberty" is not deprived without due process. This is linked to other rights that were derived from the same clause, including contraception, cross-racial marriage, and same-sex intimacy and marriage. Some of the text you quoted also seems to hint at (but does not explicitly discuss) the other clauses of the 14th Amendment, the one about "privileges and immunities of citizens" and the one about "equal protection of the laws". Other parts you quoted are simply arguments for why abortion is part of "liberty".

Regarding your previous examples:

- Right to own property: In Kirchberg v. Feenstra, a law giving sole control of marital property to the husband was found unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause. So it's related to Roe v. Wade's Due Process argument, but not quite the same.

- Right to vote: This was explicitly granted by the 19th Amendment. Before that, the Supreme Court had ruled in Minor v. Happersett that the 14th Amendment's Privileges and Immunities Clause did not give women the right to vote, though one might imagine that the Roe court (or the Dobbs dissenters) would have disagreed (or would have found that right in a different part of the 14th Amendment).

- Right to divorce: I can't find any major Supreme Court cases trying to establish such a right. All fifty states allow for no-fault divorce, but that's grounded in state law and is only true as of 2010.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by specialist on Friday July 01, 2022 @09:25AM (#31946006)
Thanks. This stuff breaks my head.

Maybe one positive (very long term) outcome of this food fight is the rediscovery of the 9th Amendment and less reliance on the Due Process clause.

That con argument that the right to an abortion is not in the Constitution baffles me. Um, exactly. The framers anticipated these kinds of circumstances. Hence the 9th Amendment.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by mlindner on Friday July 01, 2022 @05:04AM (#31943999)
The liberty argument flows both directions. You can't deprive liberty of unborn children.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Friday July 01, 2022 @08:28AM (#31945484)
It’s not a child or person until it’s born alive. Up until birth a fetus is a parasitic organism. If unwanted then the fetus is trespassing in the host body. If unwanted the parasite is robbing from the host. By these inconvertible truths if the fetus must be born then it must be tried for trespassing, battery, and theft and the counter party to conception must be held equally liable. Thus, the unwanted parasite must be terminated in order to preserve the rights of the host as plainly protected by the ninth, tenth, thirteenth and fourteenth amendments.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by mlindner on Saturday July 02, 2022 @12:54AM (#31956376)
> It’s not a child or person until it’s born alive. Up until birth a fetus is a parasitic organism.

And many many many people disagree with that idea. Denying that people disagree with that distorts your picture of the matter.

So many on the left view this as some kind of patriarchal ruling, but in my experience it's conservative women who are more against abortion than conservative men.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Sunday July 03, 2022 @12:58AM (#31965194)
Your lack of a response to the majority of my comment could be construed as you arguing in bad faith. The distortion here is of your own.

People are free to disagree with the personal choices free citizens make. People are not free to impose their beliefs on others and force them to carry or birth a parasite through coercion or force. Any conversation about forcing women to birth anything that does not include radical changes to:

healthcare, social safety net, the best parental leave laws in the world, wide carve outs for incest, rape, medical problems, birth defects, litter reduction, to name a few things

is a blatant exposition of the moral bankruptcy of the forced birthers seeking to impose their ideals on others through governmental violence. I haven’t met a forced birther yet that’s thought through all the complications of their grand scheme and come out the other side still a forced birther. Typically they just get mad and devolve into all sorts of fallacious statements, sometimes they storm off, and I’ve walked a few level headed people through enough of the realities of forced birth for them to autonomously realize that such laws cause so much suffering and cost so much in real economic and tax dollar terms that forced birth is regressive and will make the states it takes effect in worse places in all important measures like: infant mortality, student test scores, parental homicide, violent crime, etc— because the research on these topics is unanimous. Access to contraception whether condoms or third trimester abortions is an essential right to maintaining and strengthening a modern society. Anyone that doesn’t want to live in modern society is free to go build an island and reinvent the conservative turned libertarian ascent into liberalism wheel.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by mlindner on Sunday July 03, 2022 @05:47AM (#31966430)
Your continued use of the word parasite to describe a living human being is pretty disgusting so I'm not going to continue to talk to you.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday July 06, 2022 @02:04AM (#31997304)
You really should check your ideological emotions at the door if you want to be taken seriously. I have no alternative but to accept your concession that parasite is a valid term for an unwanted pregnancy and that your dissenting arguments lack intellectual rigor. If they had any you’d have used them instead of dismissing me for imaginary reasons that only make sense to someone that adheres to a regressive belief system that’s perverted older belief systems from multiple millennia ago that considers unborn fetuses of incestual rape by religious leaders to be sacrosanct. To be clear, the only significant groups opposing abortion are Christian by filling or membership percentiles.:1

The fact that you can’t appreciate a minuscule difference in terminology, and the pointed intent, is all I need to know that you wouldn’t be arguing in good faith. demanding anyone name parasites children is nothing more than a limp wristed attempt at controlling the language used for the discussion as a propagandistic method to be used after a technical (read: pedantic on the level of grade 6 debate club) victory or worse, a legal win due to the erosion of the church state divide which is a flagrant violation of the constitution. I am guaranteed my right to abort as many parasites as I want by my adherence to Satanism as you must bring to term despite crippling defects due to incestuous rape due to your obviously strict adherence to your religion that considers unviable parasites a child. So please tell me about how America cares for children with severe birth defects sacrificed to the care of the state are cared for and how the regressive religions against abortion get the funding to guarantee every abandoned child a life equivalent to the American median. I’ll wait longer than I should because these statistics are impossible to provide because the GOP stops legislating for parasite rights as soon as they’re birthed. I’m also waiting for these organizations to give up their tax exempt status due to their flagrant political meddling.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by belorn on Friday July 01, 2022 @06:20AM (#31944477)
Those words in the dissent would work as a nice template for a human right:

The government could not control a human’s body or the course of a human’s life: It could not determine what the human’s future would be. Respecting a human as an autonomous being, and granting them full equality, meant giving them substantial choice over their most personal and most consequential of all life decisions.

It is very clear from the text that the decision to have a child is more than just the pregnancy or the birth. It is also about the life-transforming consequences, the childcare and the time and money to raise a child. It is about the social impact and the lives that such choice impact.

All those belong in a human right where willing consent of parenthood should be in focus.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by specialist on Friday July 01, 2022 @10:31AM (#31946912)
Yes and: The pedantic nature of our adversarial system really bothers me. The focus on very narrow circumstances and edge cases. It prevents reaching reasonable outcomes.

There are always dilemmas and paradoxes. The proper job of the Court is to find the middle path. Consider the whole system and strike a balance. Arbitrate an acceptable consensus.

And that requires mitigating a decision's downsides.

That was the approach of the German Courts. In addition to proscribing the rules around abortion, they also put into place structures to reduce the need for abortions, improving the health and well being of all women and children.

So reasonable. Sounds like heaven.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by paintman252 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:57PM (#31936941)
That's not how law works
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by gernb on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:20PM (#31936406)
Are you just repeating that the OP said?

> On the other hand, if you read liberal dissents, they’re mostly about what they think appropriate policy should be.

The Supreme Court is not supposed to set policy. It's only supposed to rule on if the policy set by others (Congress) is constitutional or not.

If the EPA could do anthing to stop emmisions, banning power plants from existing at all would satisfy "do anything to stop emmisions", so would "depopulating the planet" (no people, no need for power plants). Those seems like they make it pretty clear they need specific limits. They were given specific limits. The court confirmed that.

Congress needs to increase what they're allowed to regulate and how if they want more power. It's frustrating that that's so hard to come by but it's hard to imagine how else it could be

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by brandonr49 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @12:54PM (#31935288)
I suspect there are a great many existing laws that congress would not pass today.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by DFHippie on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:17PM (#31935577)
> if the Congress wants EPA to regulate emissions the way they tried to do, all it needs to do is to pass a law explicitly instructing it to do so. Of course, it won’t, because there is no political will in Congress to pass this.

This doesn't accurately represent the present situation on this or really any topic. It makes is sound like members of Congress simply don't care. Unless the filibuster is removed or reformed, a party wishing to legislate on any controversial issue needs a super majority in the Senate to pass the legislation just in that chamber of Congress. They also need control of the House and the presidency. There is plenty of political will in the Democratic caucus to pass this legislation, but due to gerrymandering in the House and the inherently unrepresentative nature of the Senate they cannot get enough votes to pass legislation, however much they may wish to, on the rare occasions the stars align and they have control over both the executive and legislative branches. The Republicans need control over only one of these three choke points to stop legislation. And now that they have a generation of control over the Supreme Court, and the Court has demonstrated that they regard legal argument as post facto justification for political decisions, the Democrats are well and truly screwed. There may be some Republicans who secretly would like to do something about any one of the major catastrophes facing the nation and the world, and some may claim this in public, but because their co-partisans are making total political war on non-conservatives at the moment they can't actually do anything or they face the mob.

Basically, "political will" isn't the issue. It's our crappily designed "democracy" mixed with total political war, strident propaganda, and millennialists who are happy to let the world go to hell because they think they're going to heaven.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by efitz on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:04PM (#31936180)
In my mind all this means that things are working as intended. The Constitution was set up to limit what the federal government can do, and the Congress (particularly the senate) was set up to make it hard to do things that did not have significant support over and above a simple majority.

FDR set up a bureaucratic state to try to get around this, but it’s not what the constitution envisioned.

I for one am happy that unelected bureaucrats (who the voters have no way to get rid of) now have less power, and that politicians who can be held accountable now have to act explicitly to make big changes. Again, working as designed.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by DFHippie on Thursday June 30, 2022 @04:16PM (#31937983)
> I for one am happy that unelected bureaucrats (who the voters have no way to get rid of) now have less power, and that politicians who can be held accountable now have to act explicitly to make big changes. Again, working as designed.

Politicians are held accountable for not doing things as well. In our current system whoever is in power is held accountable, even if they didn't do anything because they were blocked by our byzantine form of government. But the politicians who should be held accountable are the ones who blocked it. Do you view this as a good system?

Consider a scenario:

President Bob and the Do Something party are in power. They really, really, really want to do something. Everyone is yelling at them to do something! Something must be done! But the Do Nothing party uses some procedural mechanism, or their control of the cloak room, or the secret password written on the back of the Constitution, to keep anything from happening. The public doesn't understand the system, because few people do; all they see is that NOTHING IS GETTING DONE. The Do Nothing party is quite pleased to stick all the blame on the Do Something party. They don't enlighten the voters. Even while they block any action they go on TV and solemnly intone about the fecklessness of the Do Something party. They said they would do something! Look what they do when in power! So feckless! So the voters punish the Do Something party at the polls.

This is more or less how our system of government works.

Sometimes something needs to be done. But we can't do anything!*

* Footnote: this isn't strictly true. The Do Something party will cooperate with the Do Nothing party on those rare occasions when the Do Nothingers actually want to do something. The Do Nothing party will not reciprocate.

Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by iostream24 on Thursday June 30, 2022 @02:45PM (#31936757)
Nice rant, however you are ignoring the dissenting opinion above, and your comfortable tone indicates satisfaction with the status quo, which generally never needed more support, and brands you as one who would side with power everytime. I wouldn’t trust you in my organization.
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by belltaco on Friday July 01, 2022 @12:28AM (#31942364)
Re:Supreme Court limits EPA’s power to cut emissions by johndhi on Thursday June 30, 2022 @01:37PM (#31935821)
Congress wouldn't ratify 99% of court decisions even when the text of their bill is very clear l. The argument you make in the last sentence of your post is very weak.