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Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:34PM (#31913966)
It's an incredible waste. The best and brightest slaving lifetimes away for things that will hopefully never be used, and if they are, for death.

If only we could just agree to staff military research on all sides with the biggest wasters and toxic personalities and let the rest of the world get on with something that doesn't leave other humans splattered across some battlefield.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by moffkalast on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:45PM (#31914066)
Perhaps so, but perhaps not. The weapons that "will hopefully never be used" are the best kind - a war deterrent - and contribute the most towards peace, since the alternative is so unthinkable that nobody would ever go for it. Laws (or in this case international agreements) are only a thing if they're enforced by consequences, otherwise people ignore them the first chance they get... as it's become painfully obvious these past few months.

It's pretty clear that without those brilliant minds that invented nukes we'd be at WW4 or 5 by now.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by WastingMyTime89 on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:20PM (#31914884)
> as it's become painfully obvious these past few months

Then again it might have been less obvious if the USA didn’t push its military alliance towards the east contrary to the opinions of its own diplomats for the past thirty years at the expense of its stated goal of furthering peace and been consistently working on disturbing the balance with projects like the BMD.

So actually it’s not pretty clear at all.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by yellowapple on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @12:41AM (#31916570)
Ah yes, the "Why'd you make me hit you, baby?" approach to geopolitics.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @02:13AM (#31917025)
To be fair "look what you made me do" is actually often pretty close to the mark when it comes to geopolitical rationales.

For a start, it was an excuse for WWII ("we don't want to invade Czechoslovakia but we've been pushed to it by the iniquity of Versailles"). And then the nuclear arms race on both sides ("we're only building missiles because you are"). And Afghanistan/Iraq ("you left us no choice/this is for your own benefit").

When you're getting into a war it's usually a good idea for a leader to blame the other guy for the cost and damage.

It doesn't make it right, it's just that along with "nuh uh not touching you", "they started it" and "stop hitting yourself", it's a common pattern to see.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by moffkalast on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @06:27AM (#31918362)
What I see clearly is this:

- NATO countries have nukes, therefore they don't get invaded

- Russia has nukes, therefore they don't get invaded

- Ukraine does not have nukes, therefore despite the non-proliferation and Russian friendship treaties which guarantee not being invaded, they got invaded anyway because they have no deterrent and nobody gives a fuck

It's really as simple as that.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by daniel-cussen on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @11:27AM (#31921525)
Yeah it's the nation-state equivalent of owning a gun.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by moffkalast on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @11:31AM (#31921581)
Nah that would be more like the standard armed forces, This is like owning a trigger to a pile of TNT under every house in town that you'll detonate if anyone decides to break into your house.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by nocoiner on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @11:44PM (#31916240)
God, I love it when I come across a Russian troll in the wild. Nice work on getting your definite articles right on this one!
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by WastingMyTime89 on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @06:17AM (#31918293)
You can as I do at the same time think that the war in Ukraine is a scandalous act for which Russia is to blame and that NATO policies since the fall of the Berlin Wall have been poorly thought out and mostly detrimental to security in Europe. It’s not an either or.

In the same way, I believe that Russia should bear the long term consequences of the war but that the constant delivery of advanced weapons without pushing Ukraine and Russia to negotiate ending the conflict is mostly a cynical geopolitical play allowing the USA to weaken one of his opponent at the expense of foreign lives.

The world is not black and white and standing on the side which seems morally right doesn’t mean you are not exposed yourself to propaganda.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by boffinAudio on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @06:55AM (#31918514)
.. not to mention, the US is NOT morally right on the issue of illegal wars, invasions, war crimes and crimes against humanity. In fact, it is the worlds most heinous violator of human rights, period.

You don't have to be a Russian to understand that. You just have to be willing to look for yourself and see America's war victims, the endless streams of refugees it has created around the world, the piles of human waste that were created for the sake of America's warmonger industries.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by BurningFrog on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:28PM (#31914441)
> ...things that will hopefully never be used, and if they are, for death.

This is a deep and important misunderstanding of weapons.

According to this argument, the uncountable trillions spent of the US nuclear arsenal was wasted, since it was never used.

In reality the main use for most weapons is deterrent!! If you have enough weapons standing around, you can avoid war, and the weapons have produced life!

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:33PM (#31914481)
Indeed, which is why it can't happen. But if you didn't need the deterrent, what then? That's the hypothetical (note "on all sides"), not sack in military spending unilaterally and hope for the best.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by WillPostForFood on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:21PM (#31914893)
Until human nature changes you always need a deterrent.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by FredPret on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @09:12PM (#31915287)
There's no other way for a civilization made up by independent intelligent entities to shake out. Conflict is an inevitable result of having multiple viewpoints and priorities, which is an inevitable result of having more than one human.

All those brilliant people making deadlier weapons are saving lives by making non-violent conflict cheaper and better than violent conflict.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by trinovantes on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:42PM (#31914028)
Lots of useful stuff came out of military research too e.g. internet, GPS, synthetic rubber, etc.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:44PM (#31914054)
Sure, but it took a few trillion dollars literally going up in smoke for that to happen.

I'm not disputing that things come out of war, it's just not an especially great ROI.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by Geonode on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:02PM (#31914739)
It doesn't go up in smoke, it goes back into the economy.

The medical advances of military spending alone are breathtaking.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by panick21_ on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @05:11AM (#31917919)
> It doesn't go up in smoke, it goes back into the economy.

There is still a gigantic opportunity cost of bringing together resources to produce an explosion rather then something more useful.

The old 'its going back into the economy' is some sneaky Keynsian language that only applies in certain macro economic situation and even that was mostly wrong and a misunderstanding of economic theory in the late 30s.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:13PM (#31914825)
A large proportion of it is just destroyed. Along with human lives. Sure the money seems to come back around, but that's an accounting trick: it's printed by the guys paying anyway. The human labour and lives invested are gone, unless what they did is one of the fraction of the work permitted to spill into civilian life. A million man hours go into a warship's hull alone. What else could those hands and minds have done?

You can fund medical research without spending a million dollars sending a man to a desert, having his legs blown off, and flying him home. Hell, the US especially could actually use that research on civilians without bankrupting them!

And what about rebuilding bombed out cities? Is there so little else to improve?

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:41PM (#31915060)
> the money seems to come back around, but that's an accounting trick

It’s also a sociological trick. Societies support massive military R&D in ways that are impossible for public projects. We could wish upon a star that humans weren’t as we are. Or we can work with reality.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by s5300 on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @09:00PM (#31915210)
>> The human labour and lives invested are gone

Military innovation is also historically a jobs program.

Check out how many states & companies are part of R&D/Manufacturing for the F-35.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by tick_tock_tick on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:24PM (#31914402)
I mean with just the few things they listed the ROI has been insanely good.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:30PM (#31914460)
If you spent even a fraction of the defense budget of the world on education and civilian research, you can still have those things and more. Without having to snuff out a few million people and rebuild every city in Europe and half of Asia at the same time. You could still pay those scientists, you know!

ARPANET was military in origin, but "the Internet" happened at CERN, a civilian project.

The ROI on CERN then, is astronomical, as it only cost a few billion. Less than a month of a war in a desert that achieved...what?

And if ARPANET hadn't happened (because the US wasn't worried about having a chunk of comms destroyed in a nuclear war), the NPL in the UK was also working on packet switching networking in the 60s, and that was a civilian-industrial thing. So something roughly Internet-shaped would probably have happened anyway.

While on the subject of the NPL, they also developed the first atomic clock. So then GPS also has a non-military underpinning.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by KineticLensman on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @07:28AM (#31918734)
> but "the Internet" happened at CERN, a civilian project

The web happened at CERN, not the internet.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by echelon on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:07PM (#31914783)
> It's an incredible waste. The best and brightest slaving lifetimes away for things that will hopefully never be used, and if they are, for death.

Ukraine wishes they had our defenses. As do many states.

Our military expenditures keep not only ourselves safe, but also our allies and trade partners.

The default for all evolved life on this planet is to harness the energy of other systems. Humans are no different. Pretending the world was ever or will ever be at peace is a self-delusion.

Strength keeps aggressors at bay. Nature naturally evolves along these lines.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by saberience on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @08:35AM (#31919287)
The money spent by the US on defence for the actual utility provided is WAY WAY WAY out of line by an order of magnitude. Most of the money is simply wasted. And in terms of "defence," all a country really needs is nukes and you will never be invaded again. All the extra shit like 100s of overpriced F35, stealth destroyers etc, are all wasted money, better spent on things adding social cohesion or a more education populace.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:52PM (#31914131)
I wish the defense industry and government agencies paid FAANG salaries.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by vibrolax on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:59PM (#31914194)
I wish FAANG paid government and defense industry salaries. Then our best and brightest might be engaged in something other than advertising and social engineering.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by xtian on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:22PM (#31914390)
You don’t think the government and defense industry are engaging in social engineering?
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by eternalban on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:58PM (#31914689)
I always assumed Google and Facebook are just privatized components of total information awareness program.

So to answer your question, Google makes making spookie systems cool and profitable. Without them, the spookie systems would need to be built and deployed by 3 letter 'alphabet' type agencies and your local area geek may not be able to handle that much cognitive dissonance.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by vibrolax on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @08:24PM (#31914921)
Yes, but it's not 90%+ of their business.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by bpodgursky on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @01:20AM (#31916744)
What would an equity package for the US federal government look like?
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by smolder on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @05:05AM (#31917886)
Bonds?
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:53PM (#31914144)
If Mark Zuckerberg spent a lifetime writing COBOL to interface with a 1972 missile silo door control panel, we'd certainly be doing well.

Bonus points if his manager is someone like Boris Johnson.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by jessaustin on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @11:52AM (#31921905)
The office parties would have been wild...
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by y0ungarmanii on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @09:36AM (#31919919)
I mean they don't pay that bad unless its entry level. Senior & principle engineers can make over 150k and thats a pretty good salary everywhere besides San Francisco and most of them are in LCOL areas.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by golem14 on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:39PM (#31914008)
Ja, let's put all the Hitlers in charge of the militaries. What could go wrong ?
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:43PM (#31914036)
Well everyone's taking that wayyyyy too seriously.

Put the assholes together and let them fight it out uselessly. They probably won't be able to agree whose name goes at the top of the table, let alone figure out to rocketry.

Pardon me if burning a good propertion of the brainpower of the species on killing each other seems wasteful.

Obviously you can't actually do that because that's basically a prisoners' dilemma with bombs.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by BitwiseFool on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:54PM (#31914156)
I get what you're saying, it does seem wasteful, but sadly pacifists are no match for tyrants. It is admirable to want to be left alone in-peace, but as long as there are other human beings willing to use force, it cannot be. The less a society puts towards its war-fighting capabilities the more likely it is to be conquered by some adversary.

It is also probably the case that our brainpower didn't invent warfare, and that this phenomenon isn't unique to us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:59PM (#31914195)
Right, I know it's clearly not even close to possible, it's a game theory inevitability. I mean, even biological evolution is basically an arms race. We're doing well to just be where we are in terms of cooperation at all after all these millennia.

But could you imagine if we could spend all those trillions on something good (enabled by the other guys doing the same). I know, impossible. But still, imagine.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by dumpsterlid on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @12:05AM (#31916380)
Biological evolution is sort of an arms race? Wolves as a species aren't trying to eat every single deer and deer as a species aren't trying to never be eaten by a wolves (of course species don't "try", it is just a convenient manner of speaking). It is more like a balance where wolves eat the unhealthy/old deer and moderate deer population is the ideal for both species. Calling evolution an arms race massively misses the essential nature in most predator-prey relationships.
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @01:45AM (#31916878)
Wolves have adapted to be good at deer killing: sharp teeth, front-facing stereo vision, pack behaviour, etc. Deer have adapted to be good at not being eaten by wolves: large eyes, peripheral vision, skittish temperament, herd behaviour, etc.

Wolves would eat every deer if they could. They don't not because they think it's a bad idea, but because either they can't because the deer are good at not being eaten, or when they get too close to that goal, they run out of deer and starve into a smaller population that lets the deer recover.

Any creature that "wins" the "arms race" against its prey either finds new prey or goes extinct. And species that loses the arms race better hope their predators have no other prey and starve to extinction before they all get eaten, or go extinct themselves.

The only reason there's a predator-prey balance at all is a kind of survivor bias: anything not in balance is already filtered out.

Not all balanced relationships are predator-prey. Viruses aren't really predators as such, but they still evolve to a balance against immune systems. If they get too good, they burn out their host populations and go extinct (SARS, say, though there have surely been countless natural examples over history). If they don't adapt in time to better immune systems, again, curtains. You could say smallpox as an example, though the last step in the arms race was an Outside Context Problem[1] from the virus's perspective.

Similarly, any overly-large step in weaponry can be just as deadly as not enough: working Star Wars missile defense could easily have resulted in the end of the world, as would not keeping up with the Soviets. That shaky balance is partly deliberate, and, if you're into the anthropic principle, partly also survivorship bias.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excession#Outside_Context_Pr...

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by jonnybgood on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @11:59PM (#31916336)
Many groups of people have different definitions of what’s good. Because there are finite resources these groups will fight over them to support what they think is good. Now you’re back to square one.

I cannot imagine because you haven’t said anything different than history and the current state of the world. Trillions are being spent on what a people think is good for them. But you don’t think it’s good what the trillions are being spent on. And so it goes.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by random-human on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:17PM (#31914351)
It would break the Matrix
Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by adhesive_wombat on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @07:41PM (#31914540)
I seem to recall that being a goal of the good guys!

Though, before we do it, let's take a moment to consider most people do not look good at all in leather trenchcoats.

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by jessaustin on Wednesday June 29, 2022 @12:40PM (#31922554)
Humans in neolithic communities occasionally have "wars" like chimpanzees have, but they don't last long and don't waste nearly so many resources as modern militaries waste. Basically they are isolated crime sprees. USA has been at war for over twenty years now, spending trillions of dollars, killing millions of people, and we have accomplished absolutely nothing that benefits the average American.

It would be fabulous if we could be more like chimps than we have been recently, but of course we have the potential to be much better than chimps. Actually most humans are much better than chimps. It is we Americans (and Russians, and Ethiopians, and whoever else is currently fighting wars voluntarily) who should be better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

Re:US military's mysterious X-37B space plane zooms toward o... by coffeeblack on Tuesday June 28, 2022 @06:49PM (#31914101)
And then there is this thing called “reality”.