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Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by cedilla on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:34AM (#31667953)
The south has almost a third of the viable area for wind power generation. The only reason why the expansion there is slow are ideological opposition and NIMBYism.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by xor99 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:42AM (#31668082)
Seems a bit quiet https://map.neweuropeanwindatlas.eu/ + others
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by cedilla on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:43AM (#31668103)
I will bother to reply if you bother to formulate an argument.

Edit: what's with the downvotes? A URL is not an argument, and neither is some raw data without any interpretation.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by gibolt on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:10AM (#31668500)
If anything the link makes it look like everything is equally viable.

Even if a plot is not perfect, consistent wind (well above the ground) can be tapped by tall wind turbines and still be net positive. Ground wind speed is very different from up where they operate

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by xor99 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @04:36PM (#31673680)
Default measurements in link are taken at 100m above sea level - turbines are currently built at around 80m, some 90m, and 100m in development.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by xor99 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:27PM (#31674495)
Seems .. referring to the assertion that maybe something is the case

Quiet .. theres insufficient wind here (aerial not at ground level or behind lederhosen) in southern Germany.. maybe we shouldn't invest millions into it

Data .. lack of wind in southern Germany on website dedicated to tracking wind in Europe

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by ekianjo on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:47AM (#31668144)
> NIMBYism

Can't blame them though, a landscape filled with wind farms is hardly enticing.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by usrusr on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:17AM (#31668619)
Neither are landscapes filled with houses or roads. Or filled with farms, for that matter, or with tree plantations. Germany isn't exactly full of virgin forests. There isn't a single square mile outside of a few inaccessible mountains that isn't completely redesigned to support the human population. All the supposedly unspoiled landscapes nimbyism cries for are really just green (or not quite so green) factories designed to supply human needs. Adding turbines to the mix is hardly more than a tiny tweak.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by mytailorisrich on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:27AM (#31668779)
Considering the size and durability of the foundations and bases (huge amount of reinforced concrete), these will remain peppered in the landscape for centuries.

Of course there's also access and wiring.

Wind farms are large scale, long term, industrial sites. There are not forests or fields...

Covering a country in wind farms (which is literally what's needed to get decent reliable-ish production) is all downsides with a single upside: electricity is renewable with no emissions. Very far from being ideal or even a first choice.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by chopin on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:44AM (#31669079)
What would be the first choice? Nuclear is no option in Germany.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by mytailorisrich on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:48AM (#31669139)
> Nuclear is no option in Germany.

Well, at least you're acknowledging that this is political and ideological, which is always a hindrance on these issues.

Nuclear would be a good option.

In term of wind, I think offshore wind is much preferable to on-land wind, but I suspect that Germany is also limited there.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by majewsky on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @03:51PM (#31673059)
Even if the entire German populace woke up tomorrow in full support of nuclear power, that would not change the immediate issue. We need a lot more electrical energy very soon to phase out combustion as a power source across all sectors (from residential heating to mobility). Waiting for 10+ years for nuclear reactors to be constructed is not a viable solution.

As an example for that "10+ years" timescale, you can look at our direct neighbor France: They are now starting the planning phase on new nuclear reactors that are supposed to go on-line in 2035-2037, so 13-15 years from now. And that's in a country that's a) pretty much all-in on nuclear and b) already experiencing power shortages (that are only offset by the ability to import power from other countries such as Germany).

There was surely a time where constructing nuclear reactors went quicker in Germany, around the 1960s-1970s, but that's because we had an experienced industry at the time. Once you stop building specific things like this for some time, you lose the specialists required to do so.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by mytailorisrich on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @04:49PM (#31673890)
France is a net exporter of electricity. In fact, it is the largest exporter of electricity in Europe. [1]

At the moment nuclear is the only source that guarantees vast amounts of electricity on demand. I think it's unrealistic to think that wind and solar (at least in Northern Europe) will be enough to meet demand of industrial nations, not least when all vehicles are EV.

By exiting nuclear Germany has both put itself in a corner and committed to continued high emissions (despite their claim that they are going 'green') because they have to keep relying on coal and gas. Ideological dogma is never good.

[1] https://www.enappsys.com/interconnectorreview/#:~:text=Franc....

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by cedilla on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:22PM (#31674417)
Nuclear isn't a guarantee at all. Typically, only half of the French reactors are operating. There are a lot of problems:

* a plethora of safety problems, often created due to a lack of maintenance and lax oversight - most famously more than a dozen reactors are offline for years because of corrosion in neglected backup cooling systems

* large reactors require huge amount of cooling water. They usually take water from rivers and release the warmed water right back to it, but rivers often run low in the summer, or are already so warm that rising the temperature any more would kill the river.

* nuclear reactors are hard to regulate below a threshold of about 40% of their peak, which requires base load demand to be reserved just for them if they are to be run.

The last one is almost funny, because the base load problem of nuclear reactors is often somehow portrayed as a benefit. Power production must match power consumption though, so an inflexible power source is a burden. Without the ability to export power to its neighbours, France's reactors would have even less uptime than they have now.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by mytailorisrich on Thursday June 09, 2022 @05:02AM (#31679074)
Does a nuclear reactor not run day and night, wind or no wind, in the same way as any other 'traditional' power plant? yes it does. If you build a nuclear plant you know how much you'll get out. You don't with wind farms hence massive margins compared to what turbines are rated for.

With wind you are totally reliant on the weather, which is also why offshore wind tends to work better as apparently wind patterns are more constant and predictable.

Your three bullet points are all strawman arguments.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by ekianjo on Thursday June 09, 2022 @07:42AM (#31679974)
> Typically, only half of the French reactors are operating.

You're going to need some serious citation for that.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by mytailorisrich on Thursday June 09, 2022 @09:06AM (#31680713)
It's not typical though it is the case at the moment [1] (in French)

The argument is a little disingenuous in any case because temporarily stopping reactors for maintenance, especially planned maintenance (in this case delayed because of Covid), is not at all the same as the inherent uncertainty that sources dependent on the weather (e.g. wind) suffer from.

As said, with nuclear/gas/coal/etc you know what you'll get pretty much day in day out. With wind it's never guaranteed.

[1] https://www.radiofrance.fr/franceculture/podcasts/la-questio...

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by bakuninsbart on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:57AM (#31668285)
Compared to what? We've destroyed the vast majority of nature in the name of progress, setting the cut off point at renewable energy seems a bit weird, especially when the alternative to reducing our emissions is completely destroyed ecosystems and probably having to deal with extreme droughts every other year.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by ekianjo on Thursday June 09, 2022 @07:33AM (#31679920)
> Compared to what? We've destroyed the vast majority of nature in the name of progress,

What? Since when? Most of the land of the world is still occupied by nature, and with cities expanding and remote villages disappearing the trend is not going against nature as much as you think.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by an9n on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:25AM (#31668758)
> especially when the alternative to reducing our emissions is completely destroyed ecosystems and probably having to deal with extreme droughts every other year.

all of this is based on modelling that is open to question.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by danuker on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:39AM (#31668985)
The last time the planet saw upwards of 400 PPM CO2 was 20-60 million years ago.

I am pretty sure such a change will ruffle a few feathers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene%E2%80%93Eocene_Therm...

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by CalRobert on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:48AM (#31668168)
To each their own; I think they look cool. Solarpunk, even.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by mbeex on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:54AM (#31668241)
Start living there. Greetings from Germany
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by chki on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:11AM (#31668518)
I'm living "there" and it really doesn't bother me a lot.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by mbeex on Thursday June 09, 2022 @06:37AM (#31679580)
> I'm living "there".

Perhaps not close enough.

- look up "infrasound" and "undercutting minimum distances", better use something else than Google for this.

- also check the requirements for the base materials: concrete, aluminium, fiber-reinforced plastic. Calculate the energy requirements for producing them.

- familiarize yourself with the space requirements (~ two acres of highly compacted soil, not including access roads)

- duration and disposal

- soil dehydration, other environment impact issues

- ... and as always of course, base load capability and storability

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by pyhtel on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:29AM (#31668820)
I do live there, they look cool. Greetings from the Netherlands. Seriously though, what is this comment supposed to achieve?
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by CalRobert on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @12:56PM (#31670242)
Hello from the Irish midlands! I live near several large wind turbines and think they're awesome. They also help us stop cutting peat for fuel, which is good because it's a unique habitat and one of the best carbon stores in the world.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by Brometheus on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:13AM (#31668545)
I live here and I love them.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by blisterpeanuts on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @10:56AM (#31668270)
What about the danger to birds? That is much more concerning than mere appearance.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by ls15 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:09AM (#31668463)
More than 30 times as many birds are killed by automobiles. The number for pesticides is similar. More than 50 times as many are killed by buildings. More than 300 times as many are killed by cats.

https://www.energymonitor.ai/tech/renewables/weekly-data-how...

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by kebman on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:15AM (#31668587)
The fact that birds are killed in other places is not an argument for making more bird-killing structures when it can be avoided. Especially when the kinds of birds they tend to kill are endangered birds of prey. That is unless the number of bird deaths it causes are negligible.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:22AM (#31668704)
Yes, it is. We have lots of needs in an industrial society. Torpedoing one effort for marginal benefit when work elsewhere would benefit much more, is astonishingly damaging and wasteful.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by kebman on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:37AM (#31668942)
No, it definitively isn't! If it was your intention to mention societal needs for wind power this entire time, then why didn't you?

If you don't mention the societal needs, and merely make unsupported claims that "windows kill birds," then you are being woefully disingenuous. Because windows do not kill eagles, but wind farms do! This is an important distinction which your blanket statement does not cover.

As for what's marginal, damaging or wasteful, then why is Germany supporting the construction of a woefully and inadequate technology when they have a much better alterative: Nuclear power?

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by ls15 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @12:16PM (#31669611)
> why is Germany supporting the construction of a woefully and inadequate technology when they have a much better alterative: Nuclear power?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement_in_Germa...

The Green Party is a result of the Anti-nuclear movement in Germany. They need to do a 180 first, before nuclear in Germany can happen again. That probably happens in the next three months...

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:51AM (#31669209)
Hm. My first comment here but ok.

All electricity generation is for societal needs.

And those eagles? One unfortunate incident, fixed by decommissioning one tower?

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by chki on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:10AM (#31668498)
That's a red herring. The danger to birds has been shown to be almost negligible when compared to other concrete structures, cars, cats etc. Birds will get killed by a lot of things, it's not reasonable to draw the line at this point.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by blisterpeanuts on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @03:13PM (#31672529)
The Audubon Society notes that hundreds of thousands of birds are killed flying into windmills in the U.S. every year.

They predict that it will increase into the tens of millions, as more windmills are constructed.

Perhaps that number is "negligible" in a relative sense, but why kill birds at all? We should be working to increase the bird population, not adding more ways to kill them.

I'm not an expert, but just a bit of web searching has turned up some alarming studies and predictions. Maybe they're exaggerated; maybe they're one-sided. But it seems to me the problem shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand.

Birds eat ticks and other pests. 50 years ago, flocks of birds were much larger. Huge swarms of birds would descend on a pasture or a green grass yard and pretty much eat all the bugs. This is a beneficial thing.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by cedilla on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:01PM (#31674092)
As the Audubon Society notes, the number is dwarfed by the number of birds killed by house cats and building collisions. But there are even greater threats to birds, like increased use of pesticide and above all - climate change.

Stopping wind power expansion because of the birds that die in collisions is like not extinguishing a building on fire because of fears of the damage the water will do to the building.

That said, many laws include provisions to minimise the harm to birds and bats. Including the German one under discussion.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by squarefoot on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:12AM (#31668534)
They're actively working on that problem.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200302-how-do-wind-farm...

https://www.treehugger.com/ways-to-protect-bats-and-birds-fr...

Apparently, transparent buildings kill a lot more birds than wind farms do.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by doikor on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:09AM (#31668475)
Cats (as in the pet kind) kill way more bird than windmills will ever manage to. In the US alone over 2 billion every year.

As others have pointed out bats are actually much more in danger of windmills then birds. And they got lots of other problems too (White-nose syndrome)

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by kebman on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:18AM (#31668637)
Do cats kill eagles and endangered birds of prey?
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by doikor on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:42AM (#31669043)
Not directly but a lot of birds of prey eat other smaller birds which cats do kill in large numbers.

Most birds of prey (well just about any predator species really) are usually endangered not because we directly kill them directly but because we destroy their ability to eat either by destroying the environment they hunt in or lower the amount of prey species available for them.

There are some exceptions like wolves, etc that kill livestock and thus farmers will hunt them usually to the point of wiping out the local population if given the opportunity.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:18AM (#31668629)
Climate change will kill way more birds than windmills ever will.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:21AM (#31668678)
I think that danger is overstated. One or two unfortunately-positioned windmills were dangerous to some birds' flyway.

Other than that, there are no more dead birds under a windmill than anyplace else. Such a study was posted here on HN no too long ago.

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by arrrg on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @02:25PM (#31671900)
German regulation on wind turbines does not and will not in the future ignore birds.

Absolutist statements aren’t very helpful in that context. Obviously wind turbines do kill birds. The correct consequence of that fact is not to never build wind turbines. It’s to find the right trade off between protecting birds, while still preserving the ability to have a shot at the needed energy transformation.

Bird killings just aren’t bad enough or frequent enough to justify that.

What specific issue do you take with the way this change proposes to deal with birds?

Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by rwoerz on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:10AM (#31668506)
Neglectable compared to other manmade perils like windows.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by kebman on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:42AM (#31669046)
Do windows kill eagles?
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by fredoliveira on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:09AM (#31668469)
As far as I know, there is no data to back up the claim that they are a danger to birds. But it was a Trump talking point, I guess.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by kebman on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:50AM (#31669180)
I guess several videos and images of it isn't convincing then? But yeah, you're right, if Trump mentioned it, then they were obviously just made up.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by 7952 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:34AM (#31668895)
A beautiful landscape will still be beautiful.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by ekianjo on Thursday June 09, 2022 @07:36AM (#31679936)
Just like beaches still look awesome when you build concrete resorts with no end on the coast?
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by klausjensen on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:03AM (#31668389)
It is a lot better than a landscape filled with Russian tanks.
Re:Germany to Introduce Bill to Accelerate Wind Energy Expan... by jansan on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @11:07AM (#31668434)
Do you really think these are the two options to choose from? Really?