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Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by kevincox on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @12:10PM (#31493905)
If you want a long-lasting phone the best thing I am aware of is to go to https://androidenterprisepartners.withgoogle.com/devices/ and you can filter by supported lifetime.
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by kennywinker on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @12:37PM (#31494306)
I did that, out of curiosity, and I'll summarize what I found in case anybody else is interested:

First, it looks like the very best options for long term support is this guy https://androidenterprisepartners.withgoogle.com/device/#!/F... (Point Mobile PM30) with "Security updates until March 2028". That's 6 years of support, if a little suspicious since it's from a company with a single device on the market.

After that it looks like Samsung offers support for their devices until "February 2027", and one other company, Zebra Technologies, offers support until "March 2027". Going to 2026 adds a few more brands (Motorola, Xiaomi, Google Pixel).

So the bulk of phones have support for 4 years, there's decent options with 5 years of support, a single device with 6 years, and nothing beyond that.

Two data points for contrast:

1. I just bought a 10 year old PC that's still useful, can run the bleeding edge of operating systems, and can be upgraded and repaired easily - I expect it to have another 5 years of useful lifespan ahead of it.

2. The iPhone 6S, released in 2015, is still supported by Apple. That's a 7 year old phone. iOS 13 (released in 2020) dropped support for the iPhone 6/6+ (2014) and 5s (2013) so 6 years and 7 years respectively.

A final note: all of this is about software support - none of this is actually about useful lifespan. Two years ago my phone crapped out on me and I used a friend's old iPhone SE (1st generation, 2016) for a couple months - it was trending hard towards a trash can. The battery lasts about 2 years before it needs replacement, the glass screen breaks easily and aftermarket replacements have touch input issues, and running the latest iOS on it had things moving slower than LA traffic.

My hope is that phones hit / have already hit the end of easy performance advancement, and a focus on longevity might start to take over. But I don't think that's likely. There is pressure from things like large institutional buyers to make generic PCs last long and be endlessly repairable - it's not really clear that pressure exists or CAN exist under capitalism, for phones.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by GeekyBear on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @01:30PM (#31495033)
> 2. The iPhone 6S, released in 2015, is still supported by Apple. That's a 7 year old phone. iOS 13 (released in 2020) dropped support for the iPhone 6/6+ (2014) and 5s (2013) so 6 years and 7 years respectively.

If you include years where you get a security update, but not an OS update, as Android device makers do, the 2013 5s got another update at the end of last year.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by fsflover on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @02:31PM (#31495844)
If you want lifetime software updates, consider GNU/Linux smartphones, Librem 5 and Pinephone. They run mainline Linux, which will receive updates even if the companies behind the smartphones disappear (actually, the second company already doesn't do any development).

More details: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque....

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by spicybright on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @04:26PM (#31497170)
I'm going to sound like a negative nancy, but after some casual research I did 6 months ago, I couldn't find any that were reliable as a daily driver cell phone.

For profit companies and strict legal requirements for emergency calls and such have a very good track record so far compared to most reviews I've seen.

Maybe I just don't text much, but SMS and phone calls are generally very important to me in terms of reliability. I've read some reports about one of the main contenders locking up to prevent even 911 calls in certain cases.

I'm sure many of these issues have been addressed, but it's to early for my risk level to use it as a primary device (unless I kept a backup flip phone on me all the time too)

Would absolutely love to be proven wrong though. I want to live in a world where the best software is free and open source, and you can flash it to any device capable of running it.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by fsflover on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @05:53PM (#31497934)
Yes, these phones are really new and should be used with care. Some people report them as reliable daily drivers though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31237002.

Anyway, anyone who is supporting the change helps future users and solves the problem of the duopoly in the long term.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by spicybright on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @07:52PM (#31498941)
Someone has to be the guinea pig at some point, right? And I'm extremely thankful there are people stepping up to do so to work out the kinks.

Still dreaming of being able to buy a new phone and picking between real competitive options for it's OS. Like you would for a personal computer.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by kaba0 on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @01:39AM (#31500969)
Tongue in cheek answer, but I would like to see the start of said support before we talk about its longevity. Because resized desktop linux is very far from what ios or android offers both on usability, performance metrics and even more so on security ones (where desktop linux has plenty space to improve as well)
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by fsflover on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @05:16AM (#31502159)
> resized desktop linux is very far from what ios or android offers both on usability, performance metrics

Yes, Android and iOS have 10+ years of development at this point. However, if you compare with their first versions, GNU/Linux on mobile is good enough already.

> and even more so on security ones

It depends on what your threats are. My threats are Google and Apple. Can Android and iOS protect me? Perhaps GrapheneOS can, but longevity is more important to me.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by kevincox on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @12:40PM (#31494362)
The state of affairs is definitely dark. However the best way to improve this in the current system is to spend money on the phones that promise and deliver long support lifecycles.
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by KronisLV on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @05:27PM (#31497720)
> However the best way to improve this in the current system is to spend money on the phones that promise and deliver long support lifecycles.

I think a part of the problem here is the fact that I haven't seen a phone advertise this as a selling point, not once in my life. Where's the RHEL equivalent among smartphones?

Then again, I've only used mainstream Android devices and Symbian back in the day (which was an amazing time for mobile devices, in my opinion).

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by Fnoord on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @08:45PM (#31499331)
Because you didn't look into it well enough.

Fairphone deliver 5 years support since release. Google do too, with their Pixel series.

Its a different ballpark than CAT. But Fairphone are easy to repair due to the modularity.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by KronisLV on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @02:32AM (#31501256)
> Because you didn't look into it well enough.

But that's just my point! Manufacturers are keen to shove their new fancy camera solutions and how thin their devices are and the notches and so on in my face.

Why isn't the same done in regards to the ruggedness (CAT does, other manufacturers have tried with Gorilla Glass at best), battery life (where are the smartphones that will last me a week without being recharged?) or the long support cycles (security updates for the OS, maybe even an unlocked bootloader and open source drivers)?

If i'm not overwhelmed with ads about these things (or at least don't see them advertised as one of the first things about the device), then clearly the manufacturers don't really deem it a priority/a selling point? Who knows...

It's nice to have options, but having to look for these things yourself reminds me of people talking about the year of the Linux desktop, while the majority of people out there don't even know what Linux is.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by Fnoord on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @08:59AM (#31503888)
We are being flooded with 13 in a dozen smartphones and the flagship of 2 years ago is mid end of nowadays. There are Android smartphones which last long, same with smartwatches. They are rare though. User replaceable battery, hardware keyboard, foldable, rugged, thermal camera, open firmware, privacy focused OS, modular hardware. All neat innovations some of which got lost, but they are niches, and combinations of these are tough to be found. As long as the majority cares for other stuff it won't change but I ask you this: what does a Samsung S21 inherently do better than a S22? I think we are done with high specs. At some point smartphones are good enough.
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by rtpg on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @08:59PM (#31499440)
I see discussion of phones supporting N years of updates in reviews pretty often. Android users I know think about it. Selection bias, perhaps, but it seems far from an arcane thing.

That feature seems to be relegated to higher end phones or certain brands though. Lower end stuff is kinda built with the expectation that it doesn't have that requirement. Sucks for sure, and I thought Google/Android was doing a lot of work to avoid blockers for upgrades... but still hasn't seemed to pay off just yet.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by kevincox on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @05:33PM (#31497771)
Few do, but there are some of there. For example this list. But in more mainstream marketing the Pixels always have advertised their support lifespan.
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by joecool1029 on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @06:01PM (#31497991)
>A final note: all of this is about software support - none of this is actually about useful lifespan. Two years ago my phone crapped out on me and I used a friend's old iPhone SE (1st generation, 2016) for a couple months - it was trending hard towards a trash can. The battery lasts about 2 years before it needs replacement, the glass screen breaks easily and aftermarket replacements have touch input issues, and running the latest iOS on it had things moving slower than LA traffic.

The screen doesn't break that easily unless you drop it face down on a sidewalk or accidentally close it in a rat trap (don't ask). Tip for buying screens if they do, get working pulls or buy from a vendor that does high quality refurbs on OEM screens. I've had good luck with the 'premium refurbished' from injuredgadgets, their batteries have held up (even if the battery health % never goes down) as well. Ifixit's aftermarket screen had poor colors and one of my batteries turned into a spicy pillow in about a month of use, so I can only recommend them for guides and tools.

As for speed, I don't use them as a primary anymore but unless your battery is shot and iOS is throttling it, maps and payments don't seem to lag. Data speeds will be unimpressive, it can't aggregate carriers. Otherwise it works fine. For me it's a great utilitarian secondary device, basically the phone that always 'just works'. Absolutely usable, in fact there are use cases where it excels simply because it can be used with wired headphones while plugged into a charger at the same time and I can't think of any other supported device on the market able to do that.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by yepguy on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @01:46PM (#31495236)
I just looked into this issue over the weekend, since my current phone is now EOL. The newest phones from Google and Samsung just upped their support lifetime from 3 years of software updates[1][2]. Their newer phones now get 3 or 4 years of feature updates, and 5 years of security updates.

Not as impressive as Apple, but it's a welcome improvement. Soon it might actually make sense to buy older Pixel or Galaxy models without worrying about them going EOL just a year or 2 after you get them.

[1]: https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/4457705 [2]: https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-android-updates-114...

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by fencepost on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @02:24PM (#31495738)
Just recently bought a Samsung A53 5G in part because of the extended update time frame. I was going to get the very similar A33 but it's not available in the US.

The only real lack that jumps to mind is no wireless charging, but it does have a feature I enabled immediately - capping the battery charge to 85%. With that and the updates there's a pretty decent chance that I actually will still be using the same device 4-5 years from now - possibly without the battery replacements needed on my previous phones.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by the_third_wave on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @03:19PM (#31496397)
If you want long-time software support on an Android device make sure to get one which is supported by AOSP-derived distributions like LineageOS. As soon as you get the device install LineageOS (or something similar) on the device and you're set (OTA updates and all - I get weekly OTA updates on a Samsung SIII-neo from 2014). Get a relatively popular device to increase the chance of the thing being supported for as long a time as possible.
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by shp0ngle on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @12:52PM (#31494517)
Well, it’s just, people that care about longevity buy an iPhone.

And the capitalism kind of works there - iPhone is still #1 phone brand, and even rising in marketshare a bit recently. That’s despite being a bit overpriced.

And they are the richest company on Earth, or something on that level.

People do want longevity, but there seems to be something stopping Android manufacturers from that. I don’t know nearly enough about mobile drivers and mobile OS to tell you what.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by shp0ngle on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @01:03PM (#31494710)
It seems the main stumbling block is Qualcomm not supporting their chips beyond 4 years, as described by Fairphone here, that tries to push support of their phones to 7-ish years

https://www.fairphone.com/en/2020/06/18/fairphone-2-gets-and...

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by asddubs on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @05:08PM (#31497562)
I never fully understood that. Kernel drivers have to be open source, right? Maybe not mainlined, but the source should be available. So what prevents someone from taking that and then getting it into a shape to be upstreamable? Why exactly is support by qualcomm needed?
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by ChikkaChiChi on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @05:27PM (#31497718)
I'm not an OEM but I'll hazard a guess: long term hardware support assures that field replacements will match the exact specifications your are expecting. Large scale implementations have historically relied on a reference device to make sure you don't have a thousand different profiles running around.

Combine this with a JIT supply chain, and nobody making phones is going to want to stockpile a bunch of old Qualcomm chips they aren't sure they'll ever need.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by theodric on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @05:20PM (#31497656)
Have to be, and are not. It's amazing what simply refusing can accomplish.
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by maxwell on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @01:24PM (#31494978)
> And they are the richest company on Earth, or something on that level.

Aramco surpassed them last week.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by kennywinker on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @01:49PM (#31495268)
I'm not sure if I would define 6-7 years of support as capitalism working. Apple has differentiated themselves by offering more longevity than the competition, but instead of competitive a race to make phones last longer, we've just got a choice between no longevity and a little longevity. This is the devices serving the company that makes them, not the devices serving the people who use them - which is how I define success.

I'm hoping for 15 years of usable life out of this PC. I'm expecting the iPhone I bought in sept 2020 to last me another year, maybe two. Not because Apple drops support, but because carrying something around in your pocket for years is hard on any object - and this one is not built to be repaired.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by lotsofpulp on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @02:43PM (#31495959)
>but instead of competitive a race to make phones last longer, we've just got a choice between no longevity and a little longevity

What if it is not possible to make a phone that lasts long enough at a price point that is competitive with iPhones?

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by kennywinker on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @03:21PM (#31496420)
I’m sure there are physical limitations that come into play, but there’s no doubt in my mind we could do exponentially better with different market forces driving the direction of design. Look at the framework laptop, for an example of progress on longevity in a space where people have expressed similar doubts.

The bit you said about price is, I think, the key. Except I don’t think it’s so much the price as the profit margin. There a millions of people who buy a new $1200 iPhone every 1-2 years - those people could be served by a $2400 iPhone purchased every 2-4 years - but they probably wouldn’t go for that, since one of the things you’re buying when you spend the $1200 is having the new hotness, status, a perception of “luxury” etc.

Which is why I pointed the finger at capitalism in my earlier post. This system rewards what is profitable, not what is good for people + the planet.

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by fsflover on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @03:05PM (#31496228)
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by kaba0 on Wednesday May 25, 2022 @01:47AM (#31501033)
The iPhone 1 was pretty much the start of this whole revolution of mobile computing - cut it some slack. We have seen huge improvements in camera, CPU and battery performance since, so I wouldn’t be surprised if an iPhone X would work just fine a decade after, especially that there is hardly any conceivable difference between it running ios vs the newest device and also due to the whole field slowing down in improvements as we are now in the diminishing returns territory.
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by shp0ngle on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @12:54PM (#31494550)
Why is fairphone not in the list? From what I understand, they offer very long updates

(it’s just not a very good phone for the price, but they try to push updates as long as possible, from what I heard)

edit: yep still getting updates 7 years later

https://www.gizmochina.com/2022/03/15/fairphone-2-launched-a...

also the phones get 4 years of regular warranty.

They are available just in Europe though

Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by kevincox on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @12:57PM (#31494592)
I don't think this is a comprehensive list. I don't know what the exact requirements are but based on the domain it seems related to Google Enterprise policies.
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by notatoad on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @01:40PM (#31495166)
is fairphone an android partner? i thought they shipped some sort of de-googled AOSP-based operating system
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by shp0ngle on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @01:53PM (#31495312)
No, they ship proper Android
Re:Cat S22 Flip Phone by baq on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @12:54PM (#31494557)
got an iphone se for that reason.