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Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by LeoPanthera on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:15AM (#31431312)
The fact that this doesn't even mention Freenode is hilarious, and so awkward. Whoever wrote this had to really go out of their way to construct a history that isn't technically wrong, but, if you didn't know that Libera got its start as a fork of Freenode that almost everyone wanted to leave as soon as possible, you'd never figure it out.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by FoxbrushTailwag on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:30AM (#31431765)
Hi, one of the blog authors here, Fuchs.

My initial draft did include a sentence about freenode in the first paragraph, but after a short internal discussion we decided to remove that, so I rewrote that part. Rather easy and quick, actually.

Now on the why: Libera was a clear cut. Reasons for that are different per person affected, but include e.g. a lot of pain to see what has become of something we put years in, wanting to have a positive vibe / outlook and rather create than mourn et cetera. We always communicated and worked in that way, we also asked people who basically lifestreamed the decline of freenode, which looked a mixture of a bad trash tv novella and a dumpster fire, to please move it out of our main channel. The blog post basically just continues in that spirit.

We are aware of our history, and people interested in it still can find the whole mess floating around on the web. Tech articles, discussions on social media, blog posts of various projects and users etc. I think history is "in our favour" and there is no need to try and hide it. The blog post, however, is about our Birthday and focusses on Libera.Chat, and not on the past that freenode was.

Of course that makes the "from scratch" sound a bit wrong, but as some other user here already pointed out: it isn't that wrong. We built up everything from scratch, and that includes trust. We didn't know how many projects and communities would follow us and migrate over, especially not that early. We are of course very grateful that so many did, and for all the support we received during the very hard first weeks. But we could never be sure if it would go that well.

Hope that clears up that part a bit :)

Edit: removed a typo / half cut off sentence

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by Aissen on Thursday May 19, 2022 @06:52AM (#31432889)
> We built up everything from scratch, and that includes trust.

This is a half-truth. Some people (in a community I'm in) had implicit trust in the team that did such a great job running freenode, though not everyone. I'd say you already had some trust (just like some IRC software, I guess); and we're glad we chose to follow to libera.chat in the end.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by FeepingCreature on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:41AM (#31435281)
Well, they're still the ones that built it. :-)
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by Beldin on Thursday May 19, 2022 @09:10AM (#31434157)
I sincerely applaud focusing on positivity instead of negativity. You all are not putting in your current efforts because of FreeNode. That's long in the past and completely irrelevant to current efforts. You're all doing it to enable the wonderful communities that are out there and thrive on this fertile ground.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by GekkePrutser on Thursday May 19, 2022 @08:00PM (#31441781)
> We always communicated and worked in that way, we also asked people who basically lifestreamed the decline of freenode, which looked a mixture of a bad trash tv novella and a dumpster fire, to please move it out of our main channel. The blog post basically just continues in that spirit.

This really helped. You focused on "getting life back to normal" from the get-go, looking to move forward instead of looking back at the anger and despair. This really helped to make Libera the home it always was within a matter of weeks. Really well done and thank you.

For me this mature and positive mindset only increased my trust in the team, there was never any need to rebuild it because none was lost :)

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by stavros on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:39AM (#31432500)
I agree that history is in your favor (and so does everyone else who moved to Libera), which is why it was a bit odd to not see Freenode mentioned at all. It's nothing bad, it was just a bit "hmm, I wonder why they did that".
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by FoxbrushTailwag on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:45AM (#31432532)
It seems to have confused some people, we also got some remarks in that direction on IRC and on Mastodon. I hope my answer cleared it up a bit.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by ivberrOg on Thursday May 19, 2022 @11:22AM (#31435880)
just leaving out the "from scratch" bit would probably have killed any confusion. happy to be a libera user regardless, thanks.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by gwern on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:44PM (#31438477)
You may want to make it a 'clean cut', but that's not how it comes off as. When I read it (as well as everyone in our Libera channel who commented), it comes off as sounding so terrified of the clown prince that the word 'Freenode' can't even be mentioned, and the huge lacuna looks hilarious (especially the parts about growth).
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by GekkePrutser on Thursday May 19, 2022 @08:02PM (#31441800)
Yeah this is what I thought also, but fuchs's answer makes a lot of sense, and I have seen how that approach to looking forward really worked. But you're right, I did get that feeling too from the blog post.

Perhaps just a line about wanting to look forward and not dwell on the past would have clarified it.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by endorphine on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:49AM (#31432557)
I'm completely uninitiated to this topic but I'll give it a shot from what I've read in this and the parent comment: It seems like there's some denial about the past/roots of Libera, in this blog post. The "acceptance" phase is yet to come.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by teh_klev on Thursday May 19, 2022 @07:30AM (#31433122)
> It seems like there's some denial about the past/roots of Libera

I'd disagree. There are some coals that no longer need to be continually raked.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by unixhero on Thursday May 19, 2022 @12:37PM (#31436866)
Some parts of the lawn we no longer cut
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by saghul on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:14AM (#31431639)
I don't see anything wrong with that.

I've been part of a community which forked in the past and it was so cringe (at least to me) for one of the sides to keep explaining the origins and such on each and every presentation even 10 years later.

Anyone who knew Freenode knows the story already, and does any newcomer need to know, on that very blog post? I'd say no.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by mgaunard on Thursday May 19, 2022 @04:38AM (#31432157)
Because it's factually true and explains everything else.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by GekkePrutser on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:28AM (#31431377)
I wonder if they're afraid Lee might sue them if they did or something

Edit: Or maybe they don't want to drag the whole drama into this celebration again :) Libera moved on so quickly that even after 2 months it felt like everything was in the distant past and the community was just as it had always been.

But then it would have been better to not elaborate on the history. I agree it's a bit weird like this.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by RL_Quine on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:30AM (#31431386)
> This time, instead of this awful cycle of disempowerment of the people, it's time that the people of the world, together, plant the flag of the power of the people on the Internet. The internet changed everything and leveled the playing field. This cannot be taken away.

By his own manifesto he wouldn't do that, and he wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by Doxin on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:34AM (#31431407)
> he wouldn't want to be a hypocrite

I'm not sure that's actually true. Clearly he very much liked taking power away from a specific set of people. The guy really likes constructing this narrative where he's some sort of free speech savior, but when you look at his actions the opposite seems true. E.g. during the switch to libera if you had any mention of libera in the channel topic on freenode you'd end up with all the channel operators banned and replaced with friends of Lee. That's hardly a pro-free-speech thing to do.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by RL_Quine on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:50AM (#31431490)
We need to standardize sarcasm punctuation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by phoe-krk on Thursday May 19, 2022 @04:00AM (#31431946)
Just realized taht "/s" is a de-facto standard recognized almost everywhere in the international tech world - perhaps it would be viable to submit a RFC for it that can be referenced? Plenty of time before next year's April.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by Doxin on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:03AM (#31431566)
Oh whoops. The sarcasm seems obvious in hindsight. Apologies :P
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by dane-pgp on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:41AM (#31432512)
"Oh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention."
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by phoe-krk on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:36AM (#31431416)
> By his own manifesto he wouldn't do that

Except, well, he did.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by na85 on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:36AM (#31431418)
He's a chump and only "believes" in that stuff insofar as it lets him perpetuate his savior complex.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by doctor_eval on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:40AM (#31431433)
"promises only bind those who believe them" - JL Gassee
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by glandium on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:13AM (#31432368)
FWIW, it's a very common saying in French. I wouldn't attribute it to Gassée.

Edit: googling it in French attributes it to Henri Queuille.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by doctor_eval on Thursday May 19, 2022 @06:06AM (#31432638)
Thanks. JLG attributed it to politicians, I think, but I was (a) too lazy to find the source, but also (b) don’t speak French. I just didn’t want to appear to be taking credit for such a sharp observation.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by glandium on Thursday May 19, 2022 @06:19AM (#31432705)
Jacques Chirac famously used a variant of it.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by grvgr on Thursday May 19, 2022 @04:12AM (#31432009)
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by tentacleuno on Thursday May 19, 2022 @04:19AM (#31432044)
> Hello (do not) @buyvpnservice from (dirty) @Kape_com

> I hope you’re enjoying the ride.

> You are now at KAPUT, you are booked until the final destination, FUBAR.

> Please fasten your seatbelts and return your tray table to its full upright and locked position.

I'll be honest: I have absolutely no idea what this means. It's obvious the @buyvpnservice is meant to be a play on "buy VPN service", but everything else looks like mindless mumbling to me. Could you explain it, please?

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by grvgr on Thursday May 19, 2022 @04:24AM (#31432068)
Hello, thank you for taking the time to read.

If you read my tweets since December 21, 2021 (<20 total) you will get some more context.

I worked for PIA VPN for 5 years before it was bought by Kape.

They're scammers.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by dspillett on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:04AM (#31432312)
>* They're scammers.*

Given all the not-false-but-absolutely-misleading advertising I see/hear for VPN providers¹, I suspect they are all scammers or as near to as makes no odds.

[1] including in sponsored segments in the output of technical influenzas who don't help their reputation in my view by parroting the words themselves instead of letting the sponsor do it, or by being more choosy about exactly what they are willing to parrot

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by grvgr on Thursday May 19, 2022 @07:01AM (#31432932)
You are correct, scammers is too mild a term to describe criminal racketeers like Lee.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by blibble on Thursday May 19, 2022 @07:51AM (#31433303)
last time he even threatened them with legal action he managed to get them to transfer the domain name and everything else to him

(so I was told)

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by grvgr on Thursday May 19, 2022 @07:58AM (#31433355)
Yes, I understand. They prey on the weak, but we are not weak.

They have also threatened me several times over many years.

They will not last long now.

https://gauravgiri.com/for-the-record/an-abusive-relationshi...

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by abstractbeliefs on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:26AM (#31431365)
Good, freenode is dead. Amen.

I'm sure it doesn't help that the current owner of freenode is notoriously litigious.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by RonMarken on Thursday May 19, 2022 @04:52AM (#31432238)
> it doesn't help that the current owner of freenode is notoriously litigious.

Yawn. All I have seen is some angry techbro who can dish out an hour of time for an attorney to write angry letter when he does not have things his way. That is not to say this is a criticism of victims but rather a damn shame more people do not stand up to this nonsense.

Incidentally this 'notoriously litigious' individual is also being sued over alleged sexual-harassment committed by him at his previous company London Trust Media[1]. However not sure of the latest status given the sale(s) of certain companies.

[1]: http://web.archive.org/web/corrupt.tech/1708590130-ocr-compr...

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by Gigachad on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:06AM (#31431589)
Irc in general is in a slow death.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by ollybee on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:54AM (#31431907)
We are all in a slow death. Right now it and we are alive with a vibrant IRC community to be thankful for.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by denkmoon on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:58AM (#31431935)
IRC as in the 1988 chat protocol, sure.

IRC as a concept has never been healthier. Lots of alternatives, most proprietary, some libre, and more users than ever.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by INTPenis on Thursday May 19, 2022 @04:35AM (#31432141)
What are you basing this on?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I have used IRC since the 90s and still use it. It's just the best format for chat imo.

But my observation is also that it's dying slowly.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by kodah on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:51AM (#31432567)
IRC has inspired most major chat protocols, even as much as they've deviated. The fact that there are major networks with tens of thousands and hundreds of users that are running with minimal funding is a testimony to the protocol and the communities around them.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by jolmg on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:07AM (#31432325)
> But my observation is also that it's dying slowly.

Is it? I'm not on it every day, but I don't really notice a change. Isn't it just that it isn't growing, at least not as much as the explosions of web-based, proprietary platforms like twitter or slack?

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by INTPenis on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:19AM (#31432396)
Well first of all there was no "it" when it came to IRC 15 years ago. There were many huge servers that I never visited like Efnet, Quakenet, dalnet and more.

Me and my little group of hackers would also host our own, and link with other groups around the world.

I think it boils down to accessibility. Even back when I started certain people just couldn't handle the terminal clients so they used Xchat or Mirc. In school in Sweden IRC was actually often pronounced "mirck" because people would refer to the mirc client.

So when web chat came along, with mobile apps too, it just reaches a much wider audience.

So the ones who are left on IRC are old farts, and terminal junkies.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by CodeArtisan on Thursday May 19, 2022 @07:08AM (#31432975)
https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php

In 2004, top 10 networks had together around one million of users. now, it's around 150 000.

Top reason of this decline is gamers leaving the network. Quakenet and GameSurge had like 300K users together, now less than 10K (and probably mostly bots or bouncers).

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by cpach on Thursday May 19, 2022 @06:02AM (#31432613)
I mostly agree with you. But I still find IRC very useful. My main gripe is that there are few IRC clients that suite my tastes.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by fps_doug on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:10AM (#31431612)
As fast as people who grew up with it die ;-)
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by jolmg on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:38AM (#31431811)
Slower probably. I doubt there aren't new people getting into IRC. You could've made your comment back when I just got into it, and IRC doesn't really seem any more dead now.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by fps_doug on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:38AM (#31432498)
But maybe just as many as old folks leaving it for Matrix et al? Might just even it out in the grand scheme of things.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by fullstop on Thursday May 19, 2022 @07:58AM (#31433356)
Most of the people that I find on IRC are 40+.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by resonious on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:48AM (#31431476)
From the article,

> Starting from scratch, we managed to gain around 50 000 users in just a month and a half, a number which has been mostly steady since.

Seems pretty impressive when they put it that way!

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by hericium on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:20AM (#31431334)
The text could actually mention Freenode because this wasn't really a "start from scratch" as stated:

> Starting from scratch, we managed to gain around 50 000 users in just a month and a half

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by phoe-krk on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:32AM (#31431395)
Technically speaking, Libera Chat did start from scratch. It isn't their fault that another IRC network was in the process of imploding at the very same time and many projects and people felt the need to move to a less deranged foundation, therefore fueling the effective userbase of Libera.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by Shish2k on Thursday May 19, 2022 @05:41AM (#31432513)
The instance of the software was started from scratch; the communities (which are the hard part) were largely cut & pasted
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by kossTKR on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:55AM (#31431920)
Mentioning it somewhere is good for history, but it's confusing and meaningless info for most people. People don't care, don't know and would rather have something "fresh", also from an internal perspective in the org.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by hda111 on Thursday May 19, 2022 @09:22AM (#31434294)
A fork would imply it had copied all user accounts and channels. But this didn’t happen.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by iforgotpassword on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:22AM (#31431341)
Do we have any reliable info on how freenode is even doing today? At least some accurate user counts? Who is using it? When the Exodus started, it seemed to turn into some right wing cesspool, but that was also more hearsay iirc.
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by RL_Quine on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:23AM (#31431348)
It's had a bunch of guises as a website. For a while it was a blog filled with shouting about how removing the administrators will allow for real Free Speech and the future of everything will be freenode (and cryptocurrency, please buy our shitcoin maybe).

https://web.archive.org/web/20210912070004/https://freenode....

It was turned into a Free Speech reddit clone for a bit, which nobody used.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220402191330/https://freenode....

It's now a wiki which refers to the network as "assmode" and implores you to instead join "pissnet" run by the Impeerial Family.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220517234626/https://freenode....

Sort of the death knell of desperately trying to form a community.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by 1propionyl on Thursday May 19, 2022 @11:57AM (#31436320)
Someone was editing that wiki, but to be clear Pissnet is not affiliated with Freenode, though it was born from its collapse. It is a small but active community, and has a couple hundred servers.

https://shitposting.space/network

It's very hard to explain, but it is a real network that currently operates as an anarchic sandbox for doing weird things with IRC software/protocols and just generally goofing around.

Pretty much every single active user is a netadmin. It's the network where you register a nick by linking your own server.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by gerikson on Thursday May 19, 2022 @02:41AM (#31431442)
It's back on netsplit's top 100 list at #7: https://netsplit.de/networks/top100.php

I'm idling in the top 10 channels, it's semi-active in that people pop in and say stuff, but there's no interaction. Most connections are from old bots, or from community pages that haven't been updated.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by myself248 on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:01AM (#31431553)
> from community pages that haven't been updated.

Yeah, I lurk in a community that _also_ has a Libera channel now, but they keep a bridge-bot in the old Freenode channel because all their old videos implore people to join them on Freenode.

It gets a bit of traffic, meaning those folks might otherwise be lost without the bot, so I understand it. It just sucks.

Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by fps_doug on Thursday May 19, 2022 @03:12AM (#31431622)
Yeah suffering from that too; we need an internet-wide PSA that people should just s/freenode/libera/ whenever they see/read/hear it somewhere. :-)
Re:Happy Birthday, Libera Chat by itchyjunk on Thursday May 19, 2022 @10:43AM (#31435322)
It seems to be alive. My client still connects to it. I saw a lot of trolling that seems to have simmered down now. I have had some odd/interesting conversations in the #freenode channel. 417 users in the channel at the time of this writing.