After all, there is really no reason that anyone using Paint in Windows would ever type Alt+F and then A when they want to do a Save As...

Right? Sure, it worked for the last 30 years. But come on, who ever would type Alt+F and A? It has to be less than 1% of all the Windows users out there. And our telemetry proves it!

If you have a billion Windows users, and you rewrite Paint - as Microsoft did in Windows 11 - so it no longer knows the keyboard shortcuts that 1% of your users rely on, no big deal. You've only inconvenienced ten million of your users.

Or you hit Alt+F4 on Paint and you have an unsaved image. There is a nice dialog that asks "Do you want to save your work?" And there is a really common case where you were just using Paint as a scratchpad and you would like to type Alt+N here to say "no worries, I was just fooling around."

This dialog used to read "Yes | No | Cancel". And Alt+N let you say "No".

In later days, the dialog changed to "Yes | Don't save | Cancel". But with a clever trick, Microsoft made the "n" in "Don't save" the shortcut key. So even with the updated and much more clear wording, your Alt+N still worked!

Until Windows 11, where this code was all rewritten by people who never knew that anyone ever used these keyboard shortcuts.

The TrackPoint may be something like this. Those of us who insist on it may be small in number. But if it is ever removed, then the one reason why we will only buy ThinkPads is gone. We may as well get a Dell or an HP or a Mac M1 or whatever.

I think it is literally impossible to exit the program without a mouse, after you did something that requires saving.

Lately I've been thinking of finally upgrading Windows 11 since they keep pushing untimely prompts to do so more and more frequently, but reading this makes me glad I've hold off. If they still have major bugs like that, I'll wait another year or two before considering it again.

I agree with everything you say; note though that power-user oriented versions of HP & Dell laptops do come with the nub, or at least they did until recently (I've used both a Dell & HP with a nub as recently a ~18 months ago; it's possible in the ever-growing Applefication of the world [shudder], they've been discontinued). I think even some Toshibas have it - generally it'd be in whatever the brands consider their "Road-warrior" models :-> . You see a LOT more of them used on the airplanes of business corridors (e.g. Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal) than anywhere else :).

You could buy Dell or HP with trackpoint already years ago. Not sure the current state, but trackpoint is not ThinkPad exclusive feature.

No, it was a good-faith question of who finds it useful (for what type of work) these days. I think it's a fair question since every other manufacturer has settled on trackpads. As context, I added that I, personally, find it ruins my screen on an otherwise good laptop.

Why the rant about keyboard shortcuts? The only answer you gave to my question was essentially, "over my dead body." No explanation that would help me understand you.

(if we want to start a parallel religious war, let's talk about 3.5mm on phones too! :> )

>> every other manufacturer has settled on trackpads

Note that at various points, until very recently, Dell, HP, Toshiba etc all had power-user oriented models with pointing sticks. If they've gotten rid of them in the last year or two, that is indeed a sad news for many of us - it was never a "either/or" proposition. There's already Apple and many knock-off for those who prefer it; I hope that a laptop for power-users still has a profitable niche :-/

What should I have done differently to make it appear as a true effort to understand?

1. Original question: "Who's still using this?" is direct and to the point; I grok it. But note that some people in many contexts may interpret it... aggressive. Human mind fills in detail in blunt / short sentences. Politeness in some cases is filling in those blanks pre-emptively. Uncharitable reading of your question would fill in the blanks in "Who's still using this?" as "WHO is still using this?" expanded to "WHO is still using this???" expanded to "WHO is stupid enough to still be using this???". They/We would be wrong, but be cognizant of good and bad interpretations of writing.

But that's very minor and extremely audience specific. Bigger point:

2. Charitable reading. This is such a hard thing to do for all of us, especially on the interwebs, especially when there's even a minor difference opinion. I thoroughly, genuinely, believe that the keyboard-shortcut poster provided best possible explanation and tried very heard to type it up and come up with meaningful analogy. I will totally steal it! :) When you read it / interpreted it as a rant / over-my-dead-body, I in turn did not feel you gave them a charitable reading, which subconsciously meant I did not give you a charitable reading either.

So what I think would've made it appear as a true effort to understand, would've been... making a true effort to understand - reading the keyboard shortcut post with a mindset of "what information can I gleam from this / what can I learn / which insight can I take from this". Which, FWIW, is an approach that I think is phenomenally useful in life, I'm actively working on myself, and am successful some small percentage of time :D

(again, not claiming some useful insight, but since you asked, my 100 Croatian Lipa :). All the best!

Re-read the post. The original conclusion was:

> The TrackPoint may be something like this. Those of us who insist on it may be small in number. But if it is ever removed, then the one reason why we will only buy ThinkPads is gone. We may as well get a Dell or an HP or a Mac M1 or whatever.

It says nothing of who "those of us" are (the explicit question) other than a cyclical "those who use TrackPoints." And it doesn't at all answer why (the implicit question.)

So I genuinely couldn't find any information related to my question. Since the (long) text was about keyboard rather than pointing device, it also felt very... out of scope. Hence my conclusion: classifying it as a related rant. Granted, I could have just ignored it. Not sure why I replied, TBH.

I guess you're telling me to not gatekeep and try to keep replies on track. Instead, go with the flow. Fair enough. ;)

I think a few posts went on to eventually answer factually what we love about trackpoint - keeping hands on home row, preciseness, speed, high skill ceiling, etc.

But I also think the keyboard shortcut analogy, while indeed not talking about TrackPoint itself, is actually the most useful post for the goal of understanding it: One may never agree about usefulness of TrackPoint, but that analogy helps with understanding that "There's a small minority of power users for whom this is a force multiplier and who feel very strongly about the optimization it allows them" :)

I recently read a ThinkPad review where the author said something like "Why does Lenovo insist in keeping this stupid red nubbin when nobody uses it?" In other words, "I don't use it, so I can't imagine that anyone else would."

I misinterpreted your question as being in that same vein.

Others have given some more direct answers, but let me add mine. As a touch typist, the TrackPoint is the only pointing device that is directly available with my fingers on the home row.

With a touchpad, and especially with a mouse, you have to be in "typing mode" or "pointing and clicking mode". You can't intermix the two modes seamlessly, as you can with the TrackPoint.

Another advantage is the presence of physical mouse buttons. Some other laptops do have these, but they seem to have fallen out of favor to allow a bigger touchpad. The physical buttons let you position the mouse pointer and then click without any chance of the pointer drifting a few pixels while you click.

I also really appreciate your followup question, "What should I have done differently to make it appear as a true effort to understand?"

My suggestion there would perhaps be along these lines: "I don't use the TrackPoint and in fact I removed the cap because it was leaving marks on my screen. But I'm curious to hear from those who use it. What do you like about it?"

In any case, thank you for stimulating an interesting discussion!

p.s. Regarding the screen, I think some of the older ThinkPads may have been more susceptible to this. I also wonder if the screen marking may be due to putting the ThinkPad in a backpack where other objects put pressure in the middle of the lid. I generally carry two ThinkPads in my backpack, my personal and work machines, and I pack them with the tops facing each other and a cotton dishtowel in between. I need a towel anyway to clean the screens and my eyeglasses, and putting the towel between the two tops prevents them from scratching each other. This way the bases of the machines are facing out, and these are much more robust than the lids.

I do use the mouse buttons on occasion. I can't actually remember the last time I used the trackpoint. I did in some cases, but the annoyance over the dirty screen became too much and it had to go. ;)

Re. lid pressure, that will certainly make it worse, but the T460s I use at home rarely goes outdoors, so I don't think that's the cause. I see dirt build-up on the screen even now that the trackpoint is below the keys, so there's probably finger oils rubbing off the keys as well. Oh, and maybe using the rubber a lot will flatten it so rubbing is less of a problem.

> My suggestion there would perhaps be along these lines

Thanks. I still find it amusing that politness and humbleness is not the implied default, but something that needs to be made explicit every time. I should have taken the time to write something longer. :\ Next time.

However I have to say that none of the ThinkPad trackpoints match the easiness and the precision of the Tex Shinobi external keyboard - it's just delightful how it feels, though, typing on it is very loud.

And yes, I have a MacBook M1 (I didn't realize how poor the support was for Linux by the time the return window closed).

I used to love the track point - it felt so efficient to have my pointing device right on the home row of the keyboard.

Eventually I realised it was the cause of some pretty bad RSI (or something) in my index finger. Now I have to remove the plastic cap to stop myself from using it.

I really like sibling comment's comparison with Keyboard shortcuts. Keyboard shortcuts don't make mouse or touch screen wrong or bad; some of us just prefer them and find them more efficient and effective.

Using trackpad disrupts my flow whereas trackpoint is embedded on the home row. Further, I am much faster and more precise on trackpoint. I have never on any machine achieved easy effortless pixel-perfect precision on a trackpad, and have never found a way to quickly in a single motion repeatedly reach the extreme buttons/locations I want to. Now, I'm a trackpad newbie, but watching other trackpad proponents use their laptop has only confirmed my feeling. It looks easy but slow.

This is not to say there aren't people out there who use trackpad quickly and efficiently; I very much assume there are, plenty! I just have not witnessed them.

My feeling therefore, possibly incorrect, is that trackpad and trackpoint fulfill different purposes: Trackpoint is a high-learning curve, high-skill ceiling option that is ultimately more efficient for some. Trackpad has FAR lower learning curve and is much easier to start using, and is right choice for majority of casual users or those who don't prioritize input efficiency - but it feels like it plateaus earlier, or at least those in my group of family / friends / co-workers plateau with it far sooner.

Ah, thanks. I have the opposite reaction. It's too stiff, so my finger tip gets tired after a while. The friction against the pad is also tiring, but not as badly.

Especially in small format computers - it actually really bothers me that we are sacrificing keyboard quality, size, and standardized layout, for this gigantic yet inefficient ever-growing trackpad (and thus killing the home/end/pgup/pgdwn section, arrows, functional row, etc), when the nub has minimal foot print and would allow full keyboard and practical design even on smallest laptops.

But it's all about different approaches. If able, I will always prefer an ergonomic keyboard, ergonomic mouse, large mousepad, and a couple of large monitors when working. My wife on the other hand will happily use 13" laptop with trackpad in awful position on the couch for hours! We have different priorities and preferences and will never persuade each other :->

Much easier to move the cursor "half a screen" while typing without moving hands off the keyboard.