[Full disclosure: we have three kids]

> Screaming tantrums are hard to give rational explanations over. Do you wait your turn to speak between screams or just talk over them?

Screaming tantrums are a great demonstration of just how irrational young humans can be. I was (and am) firmly of the opinion that even when confronted with crazy it's crucial to [attempt to] remain rational in your response ...

Speaking of irrational, one of our favourite anecdotes (one of several thousand...) when our eldest was a toddler, he was playing in the garden and for no good reason decided it would be a great idea to throw small rocks .. at our parked car.

I was in the house and heard this strange <clunk> <pause> <clunk> <pause> <clunk> sound coming from outside...

I stepped outside, he'd done about a dozen rocks by that point, judging by the dents in the panels of the car.

I was so angry I recall managing to tell him firmly to stop but then having to actually walk away, leaving my wife to explain that "Daddy is so cross he can't actually speak right now..."

He never did it again, thankfully. He's 12 now :)

Another child might keep doing that or do it to other cars too. You had a well behaved child regardless of this one action. Some children are not well behaved

One question is if punishment (of what sort) will make "not well behaved" children any better behaved. Based on my observation, I wouldn't count on it. I see lots of "not well behaved" children getting strictly punished and their behavior just gets worse and worse.

I know especially in the USA we want to talk about "what people deserve" rather than "what works" (vaccines and general covid response anyone? like we'd rather have someone to blame and have the right people have bad outcomes we think they deserve, than actually do things that work?), but what a mess.

I'm actually kind of glad that some children are not well-behaved. There's something reassuring in knowing that despite thousands of years of effort some humans cannot be easily controlled.

Of course, that does not mean it's a good thing that some humans destroy property and make other people's lives miserable, but it's nice to know that the indomitable still exists within us.

If you label someone as inherently “not well behaved” you yourself are not going to be able make any progress with them, because you will not be able to see their potential or their experience.

We're bystanders, though, so let's focus on the truth rather than how it would affect our parenting of those children we will never parent.

Remaining calm and explaining things is great, as long as it's clear that this will sometimes (maybe many times) not achieve anything. I like to think that they'll think about what they were told once they calm down :-)

I find this to generally be true, but it’s hard to be calm in the moment, so you get angry first, and then talk it through later.

The whole field of behavioral science is something that exists and looking there for hints what actually works might be a good thing. Afaik the studies say that punishment is worse than ignoring wrong behavior in terms of getting you the outcome you want.

Better even is giving positive feedback on positive behavior while of ignoring bad one.

And yes, I had a toddler brother and had to test this based on actual, stressful reality.

My uncle (RIP), who was a child psychologist was a staunch proponent of treating his kids with respect and intellectual honesty.

Like most kids, they still got into trouble and had major screw ups in their young lives. However I've never seen anyone who respected their parents more in my life. There were no beatings, no yelling, no destroying or selling of their property as punishment. And wouldn't you know it, when they got in trouble for something they did wrong - they didn't resent their parents for it. They were always expressive that their mistake (or the general view of society that what they did is a mistake) was the problem.

It's hardly empirical evidence but it certainly convinced me.

i have two boys, 3 and 5. You cannot ignore what they are doing. If one of them starts to something wrong the other one joins so you have a double chance of trouble. And if we are outside and they start to misbehave in public you cannot ignore them. If they start to throw things at objects or people you cannot ignore them. If they start to say things that are not appropriate, you cannot ignore them (they favourite word right now is shit). when they start fighting i cannot ignore it. Im reading those opinions online and cannot at all connect it with what im seeing with my kids.

I don't think anyone is saying ignore it, just that how you address it really matters. I grew up with a sibling and we got up to all sorts of trouble/fights and our parents were severe about it. all the punishment did was make sure we didn't do x or y in-front of the parents. Like it did teach me to be a great liar and sneak and we got up to all the hijinks, but I don't think that is the ideal parental outcome despite how well it has served me in life.

The comment we're replying said just that:

"Better even is giving positive feedback on positive behavior while of ignoring bad one."

I've seen that. Kids just get sneaky and they don't trust their parents.

Of course you have to stop them if they are misbehaving or causing harm. A good book on this topic is "How to Talk so Little Kids Will Listen: A Survival Guide to Life with Children Ages 2-7".

"And listen so kids will talk". Very important part!

I’m just finishing “What Do You Say,” which is a follow up to the self driven child. I am really enjoying it and wishing I read both sooner!

> You cannot ignore what they are doing [all the time]

You are obviously correct here and the giant pitfall of parenting advice is generalisation.

Your kids are bickering on a car journey? You have choices in how to respond.

Your kids are throwing stones at passers by? That has to stop right now as fast as you can apply influence with a transition from verbal to physical based on distance.

Don't take anything you read here as gospel. Note the myriad of parenting attitudes and common child behaviours globally. Accept you are doing it wrong, we all have/do/will.

No one told you to ignore them. Why is that the action you default to when you're told that screaming at them, hitting them, etc results in a negative outcome?

To extend he discussion, its safe to assume when a parent screams / hits that the other options didn't work. So it could be helpful to provide an example. Here's a sample scenario: Your toddler throws a rock at a stranger. You ask them to stop. They do it again. You get between them. They throw the rock at you. You restrain them (as gently as possible). They spit at you and then try to bite and scratch you. What next?

(Genuinely curious of your approach, I'm usually out of options at that point).

> Safe to assume when a parent screams / hits that the other options didn't work.

Most of my life experience contradicts this - parents gets angry and emotional, ignore needs of their children, do not think through their actions and do not realise possible alternatives.

I have witnessed parents 'giving away' kids to grandparents, spensong no time with them, and threatening physical punishment for poor gradea instead of offering any help

Lastly, you example is of a kid acting like a feral animal - by the time you get to the point it seems something has already royally fucked up

> Lastly, you example is of a kid acting like a feral animal - by the time you get to the point it seems something has already royally fucked up

Toddlers skip directly to that point with varying frequency and intensity depending on the child. Some will do it for obvious reasons, some will do it for less obvious ones. Some will do it literally at random. It would be great if all toddlers followed a step wise progression from obvious stressor to obvious meltdown, like you read about in the common parenting books, but that's not how they all work.

Of course there are bad parents out there too. But theres also plenty of parents who do everything by the book, never spank, set clear boundaries with clear signals and set good routines. And they get rewarded with random slug fests that come out of nowhere. Parenting is an unimaginably challenging experience for these folks and there's little they can do about it.

im more responding to parent comment, talking about ignoring is better than yelling, you cannot just ignore it. In a given day if you spend time with your children there are situations where that would not work. For example, my wife goes to work early, so it's on me to wake them up ready them and drive to kindergarten before i go to work. I cannot ignore them because im on time pressure, and we have to go. Im not hitting them but threating to take the toys and take them if they wont do. I scream if that does not work. And they still sometimes won't listen.

it's a lot different then what i imagined before i had kids. And the thing is most of people have the same problems. It's just that we all fake it in front of others. Like we are great and so on. But im in the years, where a lot of out friends have children with same experience.

The key to dealing with time pressure is to just start the process earlier (and avoid scheduling things too close together). The solution for hard wake-ups is to go to bed earlier and allow natural light into the sleeping area. In some parts this is basically impossible, though, as mandated start times require waking up before dawn. Pure folly.

If you do issue punishments, try to make them relate to the crime. Take away toys that get thrown at a sibling, or that don't get cleaned up from the hallway, but don't take away toys because the kid refuses to put their shoes on. That's just bullying and it will confuse the child.

Maybe the punishment for being late to school is an hour earlier bedtime that night. This is less of a 'punishment' and more just a rational correction to the problem.

I get what you are saying completely, and completely agree.

I have noticed male children, especially the first born male, who's father is a Psychiatrist end up--well--what's the right phrase? Some seem very angry. It's just something I noticed in my small circle.

I'm probally wrong, but it's something I have noticed.

How many people do you know who are the first-born male child of a male Psychiatrist? I'm thinking your sample size might be a little small to be drawing conclusions :)

(that and, how are you sure you're not experiencing confirmation bias?)

That seemed like an oddly specific filter.

Unless there's some condition that make them more likely to know about first born males of male psychiatrists, I would have bet on "definitely small sample" too

I'd suggest that 1. Psychiatrists and very different to psychologists 2. Intra job variation of personality and parenting style probably exceeds inter job variation 3. Anger at dad may not be a consequence of their job

I had one of each (Psychologist, Psychiatrist) as parents. Could have been worse. Almost no anger 40 years later!

As the first-born son of a psychiatrist, I feel inclined to add the data point that I do not recognize this in myself. I have a fairly neurotic personality, though, maybe that's the word you are looking for? Then again I don't think my father's profession has had a significant impact on my personality.

Maybe it has more to do with a type of personality that professions like psychiatry attract? It's hardly disputed that your parents' personalities tend to rub off on you.

It's true that punishment as in: "I am going to do unpleasant things to you because you misbehaved" isn't very effective. What works is enforcing consequences of actions: "the rules of this trip are such, it's ok if you ignore them but then you will not be part of it anymore" or "playing time comes after cleaning up after dinner, if you choose not to clean up no one is going to play with you". As long as the rules are clear, make sense and others follow them they work.

Another thing that works is making the child aware that their behaviour hurts you. "What you do makes me sad/tired/feel/makes my work harder". You are not angry, just making them aware how their actions affect others.

Needless to say you should never ever give in to a tantrum. Giving in to tantrums is not part of the structure everyone abides by.

Source: my gf works with children, often with disabilities and is a psychologist interested in behavioral science. Children actually like you more if you're someone enforcing the rules and structure than a pushover who will do as they please if the tantrum is long and loud enough.

What studies? Empirically, ignoring wrong behaviour is a clear recipe for ending up with a completely spoiled menace on ones hands.

The alternative to punishment is therefore not ignoring, it's explaining things and setting boundaries which will have to be enforced somehow.

> Parents should also be reminded that physical punishment may cause tantrum behavior to intensify and lengthen. Such parental behavior also teaches children that hitting is permitted when the punishment is physical (Kyle, 2008; Murphy & Berry, 2009)

> The best recommendation for parents in this situation is to remain calm, try to distract the child, and ignore the tantrum if possible.

[1] https://sci-hub.st/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23006014/

> Ignore the tantrum.

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK544286/

> "Getting into it teaches the kid the way to get your attention is to have a big fuss," he said. "If you ignore that outburst, they're less likely to do it."

- neuropsychologist w/ lots published on quality and duration of tantrums in toddlers

[3] https://www.today.com/health/real-reasons-your-toddler-cryin...

[4] https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1097/00004703-20030600...

[5] https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1037/a0024173

> Any behavior that gets attention will continue

- clinical psychologist

[6] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/how-to-respond-to-tantru...

Obviously there's lots of nuance and this is mainly advice given for tantrums in toddlers, primarily attention seeking tantrums in toddlers without development issues.

But it does generally follow 'praise good behavior, ignore bad behavior'.

Do you mind sharing how you got those references? I.e. which search strings/websites you used, or if you had them at hand with f.e. Mendeley or maybe already knew about them?

I wanted to read some papers in the subject a few days ago but couldn't come up with a good search strings nor good initial references. It's not my field of expertise :x

I think I started with google 'study ignore tantrum' because I had seem some studies on it before.

From there I hit up pubmed and google searches (ex. site:researchgate.net) based on terms, references, and authors from the initial studies I found.

It certainly wasn't exhaustive and I would not be surprised if I missed some studies with contradicting information.

Ignoring bad behavior is fascinating to me -- does that actually work for most people? I've noticed in my own (and others) toddlers, who are generally speaking well behaved and docile, that ignoring is usually the worst option. Distraction is always the best, but only works ~1/3 or 1/2 of the time and I've been told I am exceedingly good at it.

Ignoring tantrums makes sense. They’re doing it because they want something, and ignoring it shows that won’t work.

Ignoring other bad behavior isn’t the same. If a child is hurting someone, is being destructive, or ignoring what you say you absolutely should do something about it. I’ve seen plenty of parents that don’t and it doesn’t work.

Yes, if the kid is being destructive the sources even say not to ignore that behavior. They also give suggested intervention strategies (though I didn't see a lot of evidence for why they chose those intervention strategies).

And obviously some kids have psychological issues that make all of this meaningless.

I imagine ignoring a bipolar toddler's tantrum is not going to have a meaningful impact. Or at least that is my experience from dealing with bipolar adult tantrums.

Screaming tantrums are a sign that something is wrong. It's your job as a parent to help the child deal with that situation. Not always figuring out the actual percieved problem (as they're humans, it's almost certainly never anything to do with logic and as toddlers it's probably impossible to even express). Probably not fixable in the moment.

But yes, waiting, connecting with them, and helping them to calm, and process the emotions.

OK but sir this is a Wendys and there are 12 people on their lunch break lined up behind you. Please collect your child from the floor, shut them up and move along.

That's not incompatible. Of course you can't do that in the middle of the floor.

> Probably not fixable in the moment.

Precisely

Sometimes (often) that something is merely a transient disconnect between their lizard brain reward/fear-centers and their rational cortex. There's not much to be done other than wait for the jello computer to stabilize itself.

This is surprisingly applicable to humans of all ages.

This, I think, depends a ton on the child and the relationship between the parent and child. One of the most amazing moments I can remember was at a dinner party with my ex’s extended family. There were lots of kids. During dinner, one of the kids (around 5 years old maybe?) started making a fuss about something. His mom leaned over and whispered something in his ear, his expression changed from upset to… kind of quizzical for a moment, and then I hear him whisper back “thanks!” His demeanour was perfect the rest of the meal, but in a happy friendly way, not the quiet sulking you often see after a child is chastised.

After dinner I absolutely had to figure it out. He didn’t say “sorry” he said “thanks”?! I go up to the mom (who I’d never met) and say something like “that was amazing! What on earth did you say to him?”

“Oh, all I said was ‘you’re being inappropriate.’ He’s a super conscientious kid, he doesn’t really need to be punished most of the time, he just needs a bit of clear, unemotional feedback. For him and me, yelling or threatening punishment escalates things, but this works great for us! Now, my daughter… that’s entirely different!”

5 is totally different from 2. At that age they aren't even usually fully able to engage in a verbal discussion, which can be frustrating for them.

I find patience and a tiered approach of punishments helps. Too many people jump to harsher punishment or longer timeouts and it's just punishing themselves because they have to miss that playdate or hold that kid in timeout.

Start small and work your way up.

Oh absolutely, lol 2 is the unfortunate stage where they've gained the capacity for rapid mobility without a whole lot of higher-order brain development yet. And I totally agree on high-patience and slowly escalating :D. I've only had to deal with this with nieces and nephews, not full-time for a year, but yeah... patience patience patience.

Parents have strong opinions, but I suggest the following exercise.

Observe parents with their children. But instead of focusing on the kid throwing tantrum or one listening to their parent, focus on the parents. See what their approach is, how much attention they give to the kid and in what way they treat them - not just when handling the difficult situation.

Kids are very different and definitely not rational. But if you spend some time doing the above, you can't help but notice some patterns. Some are genetics, sure, but I'm talking about their approach to the kid, this is something that's up to them.

Also, there are many books compiling data from papers about both short and long term results of different parenting approaches. Specific approaches offered in books differ, but data, especially long term studies, is pretty consistent.

Of course everything depends on your optimization function. One may choose kid's depression in later life over feeling embarrassed at Wendys ;) But more seriously, it really does depend what you want to achieve. You may want your kids to be happy, altruistic, empathetic, hard working, clever successful, well behaved, social, open minded or creative. These are different things, parts of them conflicting with one another, you can't have them all. I think this is a big part of the reason why there are so many disagreements about parenting.

> Screaming tantrums are hard to give rational explanations over. Do you wait your turn to speak between screams or just talk over them?

What is the point of being disrespectful over tantrum? Other then you venting own emotions that is.

Whenever I hear parents act like victims of normal childhood behavior, it's almost always to justify their own poor responses to it, like this or worse.

> their own poor responses to it, like this

What poor response have you identified in the parent comment?

Are you suggesting that it is disrespectful to talk to a child while she/he is screaming? That’s not even disrespectful to an adult.

Misbehave != tantrum. Normal child misbehave way more than they have tantrums (source: I have 2 children myself and my wife is a trained nursery nurse).

Regardless with a tantrum you wait till they are calm then speak to them and explain to them what's the correct thing to do in that situation.

In almost all cases this is because of hunger or lack of sleep. Disclosure : have a 2 year old.

Yeah same, I don’t think I can recall a tantrum my kids had that wasn’t “rational”. Obviously all kids are super different, but for us it’s always low blood sugar, lack of sleep or being “trapped” where he wants do do something he can’t be allowed to.

Could also be sickness or someone fed them juice and ice cream for lunch.

If your kid is normal. Tantrums can indeed happen regularly and without addressable cause depending on the child.

I think I understand your sentiment here.

Being a father of two (2 and 4), I think children younger than certain age cannot connect the negative result with the action they did. I yell, I lose candy, so what? I get to yell. Also, telling kids what not to do is different from what to do. You can tell kids don't do this, don't do that all day and they still fail to behave . My 2-yo tends to yell when he couldn't get the things he want. Telling him don't yell is futile. Taking snacks off his hand is even more futile. Giving him the stuff once he claim down and say "thank you" seems to help.

On the other hand, punishing has its place. But use it sparingly. I always send both of them to time out if they fail to share toys or fight each other. There is no one size fit all. Every kids are different.

pro-tip: send the toy to timeout instead. Consequences should be logically connected to behaviors.

I am glad I am not your child!!

I never screamed or threw tantrums after 2 or 3 years old.

Screaming and tantrums happen only if parents show to the children that that is an easy way to get attention.

I observed that catering to children and their tantrums does indeed result in problems down the road. I also observed that punishment never works.

My dataset is 5 people.

Disclaimer: I don't have children.

I tell the child "I can't understand you when you talk to me using that voice" over and over until the child calms themself down and delivers their grievance at a normal volume. Then I explain why things are the way they are and the tantrum re-erupts (usually) so we repeat the process two or three times. This technique requires a huge amount of patience, though, and it certainly doesn't get you to school on time.

I have a 2 year and a 5 year old. Screaming tantrums are exceedingly rare, and when they happen it is usually because I have failed as a parent with basic things like forgetting snack time, or they didn't get enough sleep. Who in their right mind thinks that yelling at the kids or punishing them in these kind of situations would improve the situation?