News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:I need to find an apartment by aqme28 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:07PM (#30969794)
I'm currently searching in Berlin and the market has become insane. Here's a response I got yesterday:

"With more than 1200 prospective tenants, it was really difficult for the landlord to make a decision.

Unfortunately, we have to inform you that the landlord has decided on other prospective tenants.

Thank you for your understanding! "

Re:I need to find an apartment by novocantico on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:21PM (#30969926)
You gotta get creative. Walking down the street I met this one guy who's like 70, eccentric, military vet, owns the house, and rents it out individual rooms for $550/month. He's paid off the mortgage, just needs to pay taxes, and he's clearly making a profit since he's retired and constantly has new projects working on the house. For context that's 1/3 asking price out here.
Re:I need to find an apartment by aaaaaaaaata on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:34PM (#30970064)
How is getting lucky walking down the street "creative", exactly?
Re:I need to find an apartment by kreetx on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:38PM (#30970106)
He perhaps asked every person that walked by? That would be more creative than looking at the post popular ad site.
Re:I need to find an apartment by LudwigNagasena on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:24PM (#30971684)
Harassing strangers is not really something I would encourage no matter how creative it is.
Re:I need to find an apartment by marcosdumay on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:30PM (#30972259)
"Harassing" doesn't seem like the right word to describe asking questions to strangers. But he probably just moved around looking for announcements.
Re:I need to find an apartment by Jataman606 on Sunday April 10, 2022 @02:51AM (#30974970)
Speaking to other people is now harassing?
Re:I need to find an apartment by ranguna on Sunday April 10, 2022 @03:50AM (#30975195)
What a world we leave in
Re:I need to find an apartment by novocantico on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:31PM (#30970649)
Just keep your eyes open is all I mean. Life is strange, you never know what you're going to find.
Re:I need to find an apartment by throwaway675309 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:25PM (#30971140)
That's more of a banal aphorism then a piece of concrete actionable advice when trying to find a place to live. Expecting to get a rent below market rate by arbitrarily walking into somebody on the street is just...
Re:I need to find an apartment by novocantico on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:42PM (#30971318)
It's true, I omitted a vital piece of the puzzle. Without it, my comment's advice does really come down to "have luck".
Re:I need to find an apartment by rsync on Sunday April 10, 2022 @12:02AM (#30974379)
"That's more of a banal aphorism then a piece of concrete actionable advice ..."

Are you kidding ?

It's the best piece of advice you'll read all year.

Go and do likewise!

Re:I need to find an apartment by jthrowsitaway on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:24PM (#30969968)
It's great that worked out for you. It'd be great if people didn't have to get creative to find basic housing.
Re:I need to find an apartment by mdavis6890 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:50PM (#30973519)
It would also be nice if we would stop voting for politicians that promise policies that limit supply - either directly and explicitly such as zoning laws, or as a consequence like rent control.
Re:I need to find an apartment by sumedh on Saturday April 09, 2022 @09:36PM (#30973740)
That happens because most people are property owners so the politicians want to keep them happy first.
Re:I need to find an apartment by dimitrios1 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:30PM (#30970643)
> It'd be great if people didn't have to get creative to find basic housing where they want to live

FTFY.

There is plenty of basic housing. It just happens not to be where people are looking most of the time.

Re:I need to find an apartment by sl3232323 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:40PM (#30970122)
Since when did housing become a right?
Re:I need to find an apartment by OJFord on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:45PM (#30970185)
Re:I need to find an apartment by NullPrefix on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:33PM (#30972285)
You mind if I crash on your couch for a while?
Re:I need to find an apartment by OJFord on Saturday April 09, 2022 @06:59PM (#30972965)
Yes I do. But I also pay council tax and my local authority provides social housing.
Re:I need to find an apartment by newsclues on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:49PM (#30970229)
Since society decided it’s better to create housing than to allow an army of homeless people to burn the world to the ground.
Re:I need to find an apartment by jahewson on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:48PM (#30970223)
Re:I need to find an apartment by zabzonk on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:44PM (#30970175)
Since the UN was founded, and human rights were stated.
Re:I need to find an apartment by Veen on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:20PM (#30972177)
To which court are you going to appeal for redress when those rights are not upheld? The UN declaration of human rights is nothing but an aspirational fiction.
Re:I need to find an apartment by zabzonk on Saturday April 09, 2022 @09:55PM (#30973823)
Better an "an aspirational fiction" than nothing, or less than nothing under Putin.
Re:I need to find an apartment by MikePlacid on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:53PM (#30970870)
A bit earlier than that, actually:

[In 1917] the government spearheaded great changes in people’s lives, starting with housing. The Soviets nationalized private property and started the so-called “уплотнение” (housing compaction), giving rooms to working-class families in large central apartments that used to belong to [previous owners]. Note that renters were “compacted” too. This project officially laid the groundwork for the often bizarre kommunalka housing - a resilient symbol of the Soviet past. https://www.rbth.com/lifestyle/331621-lenin-putin-soviet-rus...

So you are having problems looking for a 2bd apartment for a family of 3? What about one room in an apartment with a bath shared by 4 other families?

Re:I need to find an apartment by throwawayboise on Saturday April 09, 2022 @06:28PM (#30972759)
In the past I've done something like this: pick the neighborhood you're interested in. Go there and walk or drive around looking for "For Rent" signs. Look at public bulletin boards in markets and laundromats. Start making calls.

That worked in the 1990s. Not sure it's viable today.

Re:I need to find an apartment by ClumsyPilot on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:35PM (#30970066)
Population of Berlin has hardly changed in the past 30 years, it grows at an annual a rate of like 0.2%. How is this madness possible?

Edit: There were 3.5 million residents in 1993. It is projected to reach 3.6 million residents in 2029 [1]

It's got to be something to do with financial markets and foreign investment

1 - https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/204296/berlin/population

Re:I need to find an apartment by lotsofpulp on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:32PM (#30971762)
Number of households would be the relevant measure here, not population.

Population can stay the same, but number of single people wanting to live alone means less people per dwelling, which means more demand.

Re:I need to find an apartment by alkonaut on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:46PM (#30972387)
Even if the population doesn't change, if more purchase power moves in (e.g. struggling artists move out, software developers move in) the market will go up.

Also, Berlin was an odd place compared to other cities in Europe, when it comes to housing. Looking from the outside it seems like it was due for an upwards correction after 3 decades of pretty low rents since the fall of The Wall.

Re:I need to find an apartment by ClumsyPilot on Saturday April 09, 2022 @09:22PM (#30973673)
'more purchase power moves in (e.g. struggling artists move out, software developers move in) the market will go up'

I don't understand what you mean or how it relates to supply and demand.

Re:I need to find an apartment by iso1210 on Sunday April 10, 2022 @06:37AM (#30975912)
Rents are capped at the amount people can afford. If you earn €1000 a month as an artist, you can't pay €1500 a month in rent, no matter what supply and demand curves say.

Say there's a supply on 100 apartments and a demand from 120 artists. 100 will pay €1k per month, and 20 will have to leave the city. Landlords can't increase to €1050 a month because nobody can afford that.

If demand is higher than supply, rents will increase, but if the demand is entirely from people earning €1000 a month those rents won't increase past €1000 a month.

However you have a demographic on €5000 a month move in, they can afford higher rents. The same 100 apartments exist, and there's a demand from 120 people, but now those people are earning €5k a month. Rents thus shoot up to take all the money that can be spent on rent, because the alternative is moving out of the city and thus not being able to earn the €5k/month.

The people owning the property do well in this situation, and thus don't want supply to increase to the points that there is more supply than demand

Re:I need to find an apartment by ng55QPSK on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:42PM (#30970148)
Berlin's population has grown 10% in 10 years. The 20 years before that it was stagnating or some years even shrinking.
Re:I need to find an apartment by ClumsyPilot on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:21PM (#30970569)
Where are you getting this data? It was 3.48 million in 2012 and it is of 3.57 million today, from what I can see

https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/204296/berlin/population

Re:I need to find an apartment by pc86 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:47PM (#30970202)
The points stand though because 10% over a decade should not be enough to shock a residential housing market.
Re:I need to find an apartment by ng55QPSK on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:01PM (#30970364)
The market of affordable apartments is shocked. In the luxury segment you'll find easily.
Re:I need to find an apartment by extesy on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:41PM (#30970136)
Re:I need to find an apartment by ng55QPSK on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:48PM (#30970219)
The same old lie over and over again. Rent control is limiting the profit you can make with renting out. It doesn't stop profit in the first place.

And btw: new built appartments have almost free price setting.

Re:I need to find an apartment by JumpCrisscross on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:56PM (#30970315)
I have friends who used to let their Berlin flat. They stopped doing it after the apartment-seizure law passed [1]. Better to lose the income than lose the property (or be caught fighting an illegal law).

[1] https://www.npr.org/2021/12/03/1061333538/berlin-voted-for-t...

Re:I need to find an apartment by ascar on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:03PM (#30970384)
What you're referencing is not a law it's a referendum that most likely will never be adopted as it's illegal. On top of that, how does that referendum affect your friends unless they run a giant business with thousands of apartments (to be exact 3000 or more)? And at that scale it's certainly cheaper to fight in court.
Re:I need to find an apartment by JumpCrisscross on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:36PM (#30971266)
> is not a law it's a referendum that most likely will never be adopted as it's illegal

It reflects a political environment that makes renting risky. And illegal laws can still cause hardship while they're being stayed and struck down. The corporate landlords can afford to fight. Single-home landlords cannot. This time the referendum constrained itself to corporate landlords; next time it may not.

Re:I need to find an apartment by ng55QPSK on Sunday April 10, 2022 @05:16AM (#30975544)
From the outside, this sounds scary. But if you look closer how germany works, forced selling to the state or city (at the current market price) is quite often happening in building infrastructure like streets, autobahn, railways or airports. If there is an overwhelming public interest, the rights of owners can be limited.

And btw: it's stated in the constitution, that ownership introduces also responsibility to the society.

Re:I need to find an apartment by JumpCrisscross on Sunday April 10, 2022 @02:01PM (#30979779)
> If there is an overwhelming public interest, the rights of owners can be limited

Eminent domain exists everywhere. Berlin’s politics are more extreme than the norm. Most homeowners would pay a low single-digit percent of their home value to insure against expropriation in that environment. Taking a property off the rental market is analogous; sacrificing a cash flow to safeguard the investment.

We can go back and forth on theory all day. I’m m reflecting what people I know are doing. Being flippant with (or even demonising) owners’ interests circles back into affordability crises worldwide, from Berlin to San Francisco.

Re:I need to find an apartment by refurb on Saturday April 09, 2022 @11:45PM (#30974320)
Same in San Francisco. My old landlord never rented out my old place when I left (3 unit building). She was getting close to retirement and had gotten advice that the building would fetch 2-3x if fully unoccupied. So she was just waiting since giving up $40,000/yr in rent for a $500,000 higher pay off is an easy trade off.

People forget that you can always “price in” regulatory changes. Then you just see which path maximizes profit. What may seem ridiculous (leaving a unit empty) actually makes a lot of sense based on the rules.

Re:I need to find an apartment by jankor on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:03PM (#30970380)
The regulation gives absolutely insane incentives. In my case (old contract in hip mitte area), it was easier to keep it and for my gf to rent another apartment on the outskirt where her work is as she can deduct the full rent from tax. Effective price for renting two apartments is lower than one in between the center and suburb.
Re:I need to find an apartment by ascar on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:13PM (#30970483)
I don't see how that has anything to do with the rent control regulation? What would your expectation be without that regulation?

Doppelte Haushaltsführung is a tax relief for people needing a 2nd place close to work. Also the work of your gf needs to be at least 1 hour away from the main apartment [1], she has to pay at least 10% of the cost of the main apartment to be allowed to deduct it (and maybe more requirements that I'm forgetting right now). She also has to pay 15% additional Zweitwohnungssteuer on the rent of the 2nd apartment.

[1] https://www.haufe.de/personal/entgelt/verwaltungsregeln-zur-...

Re:I need to find an apartment by seanmcdirmid on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:23PM (#30973104)
Rent control simply locks in a set of winners when it is implemented (which for the most part stays static and doesn’t apply to new demand), the government then has to promise that rent control won’t be implemented on new supply so developers, businesses, and private landlords just don’t give up on the rental market completely.

I don’t see rent control as very useful, but I doubt it is very relevant to the current housing shortages throughout the cities that have it either (given that the same problems apply to cites that don’t have it).

Re:I need to find an apartment by lupire on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:21PM (#30970565)
That's the problem -- rent controls usualy apply to only a bizarre arbitrary fraction of units, distorting the market instead of controlling it.
Re:I need to find an apartment by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:51PM (#30971395)
Rent control needs means testing. It suppresses mobility when the googler making $300k doesn’t move to a place they’d rather have because their current unit is so far below market rate, which hurts the minimum wage worker who could have lived there.
Re:I need to find an apartment by dan-robertson on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:56PM (#30972500)
Are there many googlers making $300k in Berlin?
Re:I need to find an apartment by ng55QPSK on Sunday April 10, 2022 @05:22AM (#30975566)
Some management positions might do. The average SWE in Berlin is closer to 60..80k€
Re:I need to find an apartment by compiler-guy on Saturday April 09, 2022 @09:33PM (#30973724)
If there are 100 apartments but 101 people want one, no amount of rent control will house the last person.
Re:I need to find an apartment by ascar on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:58PM (#30970338)
Would be so much better if you post a reference that's actually accessible without an account or even subscription.
Re:I need to find an apartment by Bud on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:28PM (#30970622)
Even better to post a reference on a basic economic issue that is not coming from basically the most biased perspective possible.
Re:I need to find an apartment by extesy on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:18PM (#30971635)
Sorry, I had no idea that there is a paywall. I use the extension[1] that removes majority of paywalls.

[1] https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-chrome-clean

Re:I need to find an apartment by rr808 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:26PM (#30971696)
Its a bit tough to talk about nothing changing in 30 years and not talking about unification, which makes it a completely different market. After the war East and West overbuilt Berlin to make it a showcase where economically it didn't attract a lot of people.
Re:I need to find an apartment by pacetherace on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:14PM (#30969860)
1:1200 is probably worse than most selective universities.

I know it is not apples to apples comparison but it’s the first thing that came to my mind.

Re:I need to find an apartment by pc86 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:48PM (#30970214)
It's a lot easier to kick someone out of school if they stop paying than it is to kick someone out of an apartment.
Re:I need to find an apartment by csa on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:46PM (#30970200)
> 1:1200 is probably worse than most selective universities

By two orders of magnitude.

Ivies range from about 1:20 to 1:10 in non-covid times.

Re:I need to find an apartment by ghaff on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:08PM (#30970433)
It's sort of a meaningless comparison though. A huge amount of self-selection goes on before an application to an elite university is even filled out.
Re:I need to find an apartment by sahila on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:43PM (#30970781)
And a ton more work to file a college application and a smaller group of applicants. Zillow apartment applications is just clicking an "I'm interested" button.
Re:I need to find an apartment by csa on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:16PM (#30970508)
> A huge amount of self-selection goes on before an application to an elite university is even filled out

Probably a lot less self-selecting out than you think.

Re:I need to find an apartment by ghaff on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:38PM (#30970711)
I must say the list is a little bit surprising to me. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-accepta...

I guess I would have expected a few top Ivies to have significantly lower acceptance rates on the grounds that one could imagine a lot of average-ish students putting one of those schools down just in case they hit the lottery.

But actually, the top Ivies, MIT, West Point, top music schools, and a couple of schools I've never even heard of (!) are all in the 5 to 10% admissions range.

Re:I need to find an apartment by csa on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:32PM (#30972273)
> I guess I would have expected a few top Ivies to have significantly lower acceptance rates on the grounds that one could imagine a lot of average-ish students putting one of those schools down just in case they hit the lottery.

There are many, many of these applicants who have roughly a 0% chance of admission.

I am not saying that elite schools are easy to get in (they are not), but someone who is a strong all-around applicant will most likely get into at least one elite school.

Most applicants are challenged by the fact that they only have one or two strong points (like grades and scores), and those “strong points” often aren’t even that strong. Athletics, community involvement, leadership, above-and-beyond academics, etc. go a long way.

Re:I need to find an apartment by baobabKoodaa on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:13PM (#30969853)
This sounds like rent caps.
Re:I need to find an apartment by ghaff on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:16PM (#30969883)
My initial reaction was that it sounds as if they're not charging nearly enough. You may want to be picky but that's ridiculous. But you may be right.
Re:I need to find an apartment by wildmanx on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:54PM (#30970284)
These 1:1200 are exceptional anecdotes that happen if you have some idealistic landlord that doesn't max out the allowed rent but rents it out at some price point that they consider reasonable, which is perhaps the rent from 20 years ago. Of course they get flooded with applications.

If they'd max out, they'd still get multiple applications, but maybe 10-30 of those, half of them from people with bad credit rating.

Still bad, but not as extreme as it sounds like.

Re:I need to find an apartment by aqme28 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:38PM (#30972316)
That’s part of it. The place was far below market.
Re:I need to find an apartment by TillE on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:39PM (#30970116)
Rents have absolutely skyrocketed over the past 15 years or so (3-4x), despite mild controls, so no not really.
Re:I need to find an apartment by sonicggg on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:32PM (#30970037)
The pandemic allowed remote work to flourish. Why are people still crowding the cities? And of all the places, specially Berlin. Not even that great of a city. A lot of my friends fled the city.
Re:I need to find an apartment by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:21PM (#30970563)
>The pandemic allowed remote work to flourish.

Because in most of Europe (Austria for me) it didn't flourish and not every job can be done remotely as not everything IT related is web development and in many companies management did not give ownership and resources to maintain remote work IT infrastructure to anyone, so everything is chaotic and crumbling to bits now that things are opening up and most people are back in the offices.

Few companies here are keeping 100% remote once the vaccine mandate came through and things started opening up this spring, and now the new standard is various hybrid work variants where you get 1-3 days per week remote and the rest in the office, or one week remote, one in the office, without any logic or arguments behind these choices, just "because management said so" and "this is how we do it here".

>Why are people still crowding the cities?

Because that's where the amenities and the networking opportunities still are. Universities, clubs, bars, music halls, swimming pools, great restaurants, bouldering halls and gyms, music and jazz bars and basically anything to do with art.

Oh, and most importantly, dating. It's way more difficult to meet someone when you live alone in the sticks VS being surrounded by people your own age sharing similar interests.

Re:I need to find an apartment by closeparen on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:40PM (#30970126)
Any place I can’t walk on well-traveled sidewalks to a coffee shop, restaurant, grocery store, etc. is a place not fit for human habitation.
Re:I need to find an apartment by jfk13 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:43PM (#30970156)
I wonder how humans survived for the first, oh, 99% or so of the time we've been on earth?
Re:I need to find an apartment by closeparen on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:11PM (#30970459)
Prior to the automobile era, we were all pedestrians. A small town was a town you could walk the length of. Europe is dotted with old villages denser than contemporary North American cities.
Re:I need to find an apartment by ghaff on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:26PM (#30970612)
While true, I suspect most of the people who are looking for walkability want something more than a small town with a pub, a small market, and maybe a couple other stores/cafes/etc. I've stayed in many of those small towns and they can be very pleasant--but there's not a whole lot within easy walking distance.
Re:I need to find an apartment by asoneth on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:01PM (#30972025)
My partner and I were looking for a walkable urban neighborhood but ultimately ended up in a small town with a pub, market, cafe, store... and a train to the big city.

Couldn't be happier, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is single.

Re:I need to find an apartment by vanilla_nut on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:51PM (#30972434)
Likewise, chose a cute little New England town when I realized that the benefits of living in a city are mostly... drunks, drugs, and concerts that are neat, but I'm unlikely to attend.

There's culture and museums and lots of different food in cities, but all I really need is a small smattering of decent establishments in exactly the vein you just mentioned. And of course a good environment for working from home.

Re:I need to find an apartment by asoneth on Monday April 11, 2022 @10:41AM (#30989432)
Same. Given our requirements and price range we would not be living within walking distance of the city museums or cultural amenities anyway, and we would be about as far a walk from the closest supermarket or cafe as we are now.

I think there is something to be said for New England towns where the design of the town center predates the automobile and is therefore pleasantly dense and walkable. They just don't seem to make towns like that any more.

If you can be 100% remote and don't need the transit options to the big city then just a little further out you can find charming towns for even less.

Re:I need to find an apartment by ghaff on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:12PM (#30972106)
Depending upon circumstances, there's certainly something to be said for spending money/effort to go into a city now and then rather than spending an ongoing premium for living there day to day which may even have certain negatives.
Re:I need to find an apartment by tayo42 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:46PM (#30970188)
We've been driving to costco since neanderthals walked the earth
Re:I need to find an apartment by goodpoint on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:48PM (#30970821)
For sure, not by living in car-centric cities.

We survived in little pedestrian-only villages. That thing that now is considered luxury or even a tourist destination.

Re:I need to find an apartment by megous on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:02PM (#30970378)
Barely. The humans certainly would not survive in the current numbers/concentrations, without all the civilization around them.
Re:I need to find an apartment by not2b on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:54PM (#30970283)
For all that time, people had to walk to wherever they needed to get to, so yes, they had to pick places where what they needed was close by.
Re:I need to find an apartment by b20000 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:47PM (#30970817)
because there is nothing to do if you live in the middle of nowhere except maybe watching TV and screwing around with your computer? gets boring fast.
Re:I need to find an apartment by bsder on Saturday April 09, 2022 @06:01PM (#30972543)
> The pandemic allowed remote work to flourish. Why are people still crowding the cities?

Because the top employers by number of people are all about schlepping shit from A (where population isn't) to B (where population is), and that can't be done remotely. Then you have the manufacturers, and that can't be done remotely either.

Most jobs cannot be done solely using a computer keyboard.

Re:I need to find an apartment by newsclues on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:51PM (#30970252)
Cities offer more than just jobs.

Culture is also concentrated.

Re:I need to find an apartment by b20000 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:48PM (#30970824)
why did your friends leave berlin?
Re:I need to find an apartment by noahtallen on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:44PM (#30970174)
Portland, OR solved that problem by making landlords accept the first offer which matches the stated requirements. Which leads to some… interesting incentives :p
Re:I need to find an apartment by seanmcdirmid on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:27PM (#30973129)
Seattle has this also. It leads to very stringent requirements, with little room for flexibility, you also have to the first qualified person to respond to an ad. It has also led to a lot of rental supply not being advertised, relying on personal connections to find tenants instead.
Re:I need to find an apartment by Root_Denied on Saturday April 09, 2022 @08:41PM (#30973477)
It's also difficult to nail landlords on, so it goes largely unenforced (at least in Seattle). Most renters aren't going to be able to afford to take a landlord to court over an apartment they didn't get, they're just going to keep hunting because they're usually on a strict timeframe to move.
Re:I need to find an apartment by seanmcdirmid on Saturday April 09, 2022 @11:23PM (#30974226)
Most landlords are sophisticated enough to follow the rules, but it does affect corporate landlords (who always advertise and whose employees can lose their jobs if they don't follow the rules) more than private ones.
Re:I need to find an apartment by selestify on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:27PM (#30970621)
Please do say, what interesting incentives appear? :)
Re:I need to find an apartment by coolspot on Saturday April 09, 2022 @05:34PM (#30972287)
High-frequency apartment trading. If you don’t submit your application in first 50ms after listing is up - you lose.
Re:I need to find an apartment by pph on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:46PM (#30970802)
As I am also looking for a flat in Berlin I can only say: At least you got a response. It's nearly impossible to find anything below 20€/m² cold rent and some people are trying to (illegally) sell on old, cheap contracts for 6000€ and more.
Re:I need to find an apartment by bogomipz on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:20PM (#30971103)
Can I ask what is cold rent here, does that does not include utilities or similar? Also how does the second illegal thing work, is that subletting basically?
Re:I need to find an apartment by MinorTom on Sunday April 10, 2022 @06:42AM (#30975941)
> Also how does the second illegal thing work, is that subletting basically?

I'm not sure if this is what gp meant, but:

In some cases the current tenant (who is looking to move out) offers you the landlord's contact details if you agree to buy their kitchen for way too much money. This works because for a landlord looking for new tenants is a lot of hassle so they're likely to take you if you contact them.

Re:I need to find an apartment by gmueckl on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:52PM (#30971398)
Can't answer the second question. As for the first one: in Germany, you pay rent plus an advance for certain utilities (heating, cold and hot water, trash collection, general maintenance of common areas etc.). The rent without the advance is commonly called "cold" rent (Kaltmiete). The advance is variable based on actual usage. So the common way to compare rents is by excluding that.
Re:I need to find an apartment by dghughes on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:53PM (#30970874)
And don't Germans traditionally prefer renting over owning? Or so I've heard (but I'm not German).
Re:I need to find an apartment by ng55QPSK on Sunday April 10, 2022 @05:34AM (#30975611)
I'm german and i can save roughly 15k€ per year (and that's a lot in german context). A freestanding house in this area (think Munich) costs a little bit north of 1.5Mio. Do the math.
Re:I need to find an apartment by mikojan on Sunday April 10, 2022 @08:18PM (#30983146)
LOL you get answers back?!
Re:I need to find an apartment by TillE on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:29PM (#30970009)
You pretty much have to buy an apartment in Berlin, that's been the case for the past 10 years or so. Landlords took them off the market and put them up for sale.

You might still be able to find something decent for around 100k euro, I'm not sure.

Re:I need to find an apartment by abliefern on Saturday April 09, 2022 @07:19PM (#30973082)
In Berlin, 100k will get you less than 20m2 somewhere on the outskirts of Spandau
Re:I need to find an apartment by b20000 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:36PM (#30970082)
why did landlords take their units off the market in berlin? because renting out is no longer interesting?
Re:I need to find an apartment by wildmanx on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:51PM (#30970258)
Because a law called "Mietpreisbremse" makes it entirely unattractive to rent out. That's a strict regulation on how much rent you are allowed to take. And that's just the direct financial aspect. Once a tenant lives in your place, it's really hard to get rid of them. Even if they act like total scumbags, trash the place, disturb the neighbors, pay their rent late.

No reasonable investor finds it attractive to build new rentals in German cities. Result is a shortage. And because of the shortage, rents skyrocket. And because of that, you have "Mietpreisbremse". And because of that, there is even less rentals and even more shortage.

If only anybody would understand that you can't fight the market like that.

Re:I need to find an apartment by JumpCrisscross on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:53PM (#30970275)
Berlin politics also seriously discuss seizing landlords' properties [1]. It's stupid. It's illegal. But it makes the potential downside of renting out a home the value of the property. (Or the cost of defending against an illegal law.)

[1] https://www.npr.org/2021/12/03/1061333538/berlin-voted-for-t...

Re:I need to find an apartment by ascar on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:25PM (#30970602)
> Berlin politics

Berlin citizens. It's a public referendum.

> seizing landlords' properties

with 3000 or more units.

> defending against an illegal law

It's not a law and it will very likely never be one as it's pretty much against the constitution.

Re:I need to find an apartment by mikojan on Sunday April 10, 2022 @07:40PM (#30982905)
It's not illegal. It's in the German constitution. Land is seized all the time, too. E. g. when the autobahn or mining operations are expanded. Nobody bats an eye there. It's only when corporations shift from being beneficiaries of disappropriation to being the target of such laws that the whole world all of a sudden is outraged.
Re:I need to find an apartment by blub on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:02PM (#30970379)
AFAIK it’s not that hard if you find a relative to move into that apartment. But finding that relative may be hard…
Re:I need to find an apartment by s17n on Saturday April 09, 2022 @02:24PM (#30970595)
Land value tax solves this
Re:I need to find an apartment by nemo44x on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:27PM (#30971708)
Higher interest rates solve it. Or a LVT that’s tied to interest rates - as rates go up, tax goes down etc.

The problem with property taxes of course are the people paying them are also the people living there. So good luck running on that platform heh.

Re:I need to find an apartment by mschuster91 on Saturday April 09, 2022 @03:04PM (#30970963)
Your post is bordering on propaganda.

First of all: the problem at the core is that Berlin is pretty much built out, there is not much space any more to expand to. Yes, skyscrapers could be a solution, but everyone seriously thinking about this gets invited to look at Frankfurt am Main and then forget about the idea because that city is simply hideous. Skyscrapers are very unwelcome in Germany because of that example, not to mention they need some seriously solid ground to make a proper foundation... and Berlin doesn't have that.

Second: that law was enacted because people were fed up with rents going up all the time - including absolutely ridiculous practices like "kalte Entmietung" (aka having construction crews in allll the time to drive out tenants) or charging ridiculous prices and raising rents while the property devolves ever more because the profits from the raised rents are clearly being siphoned off instead of being used to keep up maintenance.

Third: People were especially pissed off about the large landlords (Vonovia etc.) which bought their stock at fire-sale prices (literally - the 90s CDU government under Diepgen had left a veritable banking scandal and the Senate was forced to sell everything it had in the early 2000s for cheap) and now raised rent like there was no tomorrow. It was naked and utter greed that turned the public opinion so bad.

> Once a tenant lives in your place, it's really hard to get rid of them. Even if they act like total scumbags, trash the place, disturb the neighbors, pay their rent late.

Paying rent persistently late is grounds for termination, it's easy to grab an eviction order at a court. Disturbing neighbors... well let's keep it at "having illegal hotels aka AirBnBs as neighbors is way worse".

> No reasonable investor finds it attractive to build new rentals in German cities. Result is a shortage.

People build like mad wherever they still can and that is the problem. Land values in urban areas exploded - Munich for example had land values double in four years [1] - and the result is that because the land is so expensive, the resulting rental price are going to be exorbitantly expensive as well.

In the end the solution is not the market, as the market will over time only serve to evict the weakest of society - and as a result, as we have seen in Berlin and with the Yellow Vests in France, this has the potential to erode trust in democracy itself.

The solution is to revitalize the rural areas. Public transit and high-speed Internet access are the key points where the suburban and rural areas across the West have the worst issues - fix that and people will actively move towards these areas instead of all being forced to compete for urban quarters!

[1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/muenchen-grundstueckspr...

Re:I need to find an apartment by wildmanx on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:41PM (#30971843)
> Your post is bordering on propaganda.

Please don't. That's not how a civilized debate works.

> First of all: the problem at the core is that Berlin is pretty much built out

Sorry, when comparing to other cities world-wide, that's hard to buy. Places like San Francisco, ok, maybe. Ocean in 3 of 4 directions. Vancouver, ok, maybe. Mountains on 2 sides, ocean on one side, border to US on one side. But Berlin? It's all flat, fields and tree plantations ("forest") all around. Even just adding a floor or two here and there would be fine. There are many areas that could get quite some more density with 5-6 floor houses. But then NIMBY hits. Easier to be angry at the "rich landlords".

> Second: that law was enacted because people were fed up with rents going up all the time

I'm trying to tell you that that's not solving the problem. High rents are just a symptom. The root cause is a mismatch of supply and demand. It's as if you are trying to legislate away gravity. That won't work in the long run. Either you need to increase supply or decrease demand. I can see that you argue that rural areas should be strengthened, but I fail to see how that would suffice. People want to live in Berlin.

> Third: People were especially pissed off about the large landlords (Vonovia etc.) which bought their stock at fire-sale prices

The people should be pissed off at the politicians that sold them the stock. It was rational to buy it. Selling out was not. And that wasn't just CDU. Even the SPD+Linke senate did similar things later on. Yet, everybody gets reelected all the time. (Not defending CDU here, they are just as guilty.)

Re:I need to find an apartment by gmueckl on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:02PM (#30971498)
Evicting tenants is not easy. Even with an order, you can't simply dump tenants out on the street if they have no other home to go to. And there are ways to claim extenuating circumstances. We've had our share of tenants that trashed their places badly while not paying. And we didn't get a single cent of what they owed us for rent or damages. This wasn't in Berlin, but I don't even know how much money we lost. Renting out apartments is a risky proposition in this country.
Re:I need to find an apartment by nemo44x on Saturday April 09, 2022 @04:26PM (#30971694)
The prices mainly went up so fast because interest rates in Germany went to 0 and below. Get the central bank rate up to 3% and you’ll see property values crash.

But yes I agree, make living outside cities worthwhile and attractive.

Re:I need to find an apartment by koevet on Sunday April 10, 2022 @01:08AM (#30974619)
Berlin pretty much built out? The city has a huge "hole" in the center - Tempelhofer Feld. 355 hectares of land that at some point it was decided to leave untouched. Complete waste of space that could be used to build thousands of units.
Re:I need to find an apartment by mikojan on Sunday April 10, 2022 @08:01PM (#30983033)
Anyone who lived in Berlin in the early 2000s can attest to the bizarre real estate situation back then.

The idea that the Tempelhofer Feld would have become anything but a mall with adjacent luxury apartments is bonkers.

The German constitutional court had just forced Berlin to sell of most of its housing infrastructure and the mayor and his confidants clearly were either unwilling or incapable of enforcing laws that would have ensured some form of public control and affordable housing options.

This was the time when people were offering tours putting all these vacant buildings on display that were left there waiting for the rent moratorium to end. When corporations freely redesignated large and central areas to the next biggest mall and luxury apartment project.

Edit: wording

Re:I need to find an apartment by ng55QPSK on Sunday April 10, 2022 @04:52AM (#30975439)
I really wonder what happens when Manhattan will discuss to put more buildings into central park?

Tempelhofer Feld is needed as greenfield in the central city for climate reasons.

Re:I need to find an apartment by wildmanx on Sunday April 10, 2022 @10:55AM (#30977453)
You can't have it all. No new areas for housing and no higher buildings and keep real estate prices and rents at a certain level and more people move into the city. That's impossible. Something must give.

Ideally it's a compromise, everything gives a little. A few more areas for housing, a little higher buildings, a bit higher prices, a bit more attractive rural areas.

Manhatten is one of the densest populated urban centers in the world. Nearly no other green areas, even street trees are a rare sight. Everything is concrete. Berlin on the other hand is very green. Parks, trees on the street, Tiergarten, Grunewald, and yes, Tempelhofer Feld. You could build housing for tens of thousands of people while still keeping the area green with lots of trees and parks for people to relax in.

Just keeping it a huge empty space and at the same time complain about high rents is ridiculous. This is not solved by complaining about money hungry investors. It's the supply-vs-demand ratio that's the problem. Not greed. (It may play a role, but would not have much of a chance without the underlying issue.) Of course you can keep it "for climate reasons". But that comes with a price and you need to live with those consequences. "Mietpreisbremse" is not going to solve any of those.

Re:I need to find an apartment by matteuan on Sunday April 10, 2022 @04:47PM (#30981544)
like central park? It's grass and asphalt without a tree, in hot days in summer becomes a furnace. Better put some buildings AND a nice park
Re:I need to find an apartment by TillE on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:42PM (#30970140)
Dunno, it doesn't really make sense to me. Sale prices were around 20 years' of rent, so it seems like a great asset to hold. I assume they just wanted to cash out on rising prices.
Re:I need to find an apartment by OJFord on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:49PM (#30970230)
> Sale prices were around 20 years' of rent

That's the same thing as 5% yield right? (Just that that's the way around I usually hear it, might be a regional thing.)

That sounds like perhaps the high end of normal range, but not extraordinary?

Re:I need to find an apartment by theplumber on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:41PM (#30970137)
Perhaps due the regulation of the renting business.
Re:I need to find an apartment by wildmanx on Saturday April 09, 2022 @01:47PM (#30970208)
This is not a representative case though.

A few years back, I was looking for a rental in a German city with a similarly hot market. One place I looked at was not very modern but had quite low rent, so there were 300 applicants and I didn't even try. Another place was put on the market 3 days prior, there were 5 people looking at it with me, 3 of them applied (including me), and I got it. It was more expensive though (not insane, mind you) and very modern, recently renovated.

So, of course there will be crazy places, but if you only shoot for the ones with top demand, then of course you can come with anecdotes that sound insane.