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Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by TameAntelope on Monday April 04, 2022 @11:55AM (#30908127)
When you presume a feeling for someone else, you're robbing them of their own agency.

You may not even be wrong, but people have a right to choose how they feel about something, how something affects them, and the only way to know is to talk to them about it.

Attributing to someone a feeling or thought they themselves did not actually have is among the worst things you can reasonably do to someone on a daily basis without interacting with them at all.

I worry people don't quite realize how harmful this behavior is, or how often people do it.

The solution, as always, is to communicate. Just speak, using words, to the person you're inventing thoughts and feelings for. Often you've successfully detected something (we are social creatures, after all), but rarely are you right on the specifics.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by baryphonic on Monday April 04, 2022 @11:58AM (#30908166)
I agree, with the caveat that it doesn't work with people acting in bad faith (e.g. liars, manipulators, narcissists). In those cases, communication often makes situations worse. Of course bad faith should never be assumed, but once it has been demonstrated, it's hard to forget—if someone was willing to lie once to get what he wanted, how do I know he'd be unwilling to lie again?

For the vast majority of people, though, communication is better.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by mooreds on Monday April 04, 2022 @11:58AM (#30908169)
> When you presume a feeling for someone else, you're robbing them of their own agency.

Yes! I've done that too often, tiptoeing around things trying to game out all the possible ramifications. It's far better to simply try to:

* know your needs/desires

* communicate them

* ask about theirs

* handle the consequences

Even though it is straightforward, it may not be easy.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by jdmichal on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:04PM (#30908247)
This is pretty close to the basic tenets of Nonviolent Communication:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication#Overv...

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by nvusuvu on Monday April 04, 2022 @01:08PM (#30909139)
This book has and continues to change the way I communicate with others. Its sitting on my desk now. Empathy and Honesty, what a beautiful dance.
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by mattcwilson on Monday April 04, 2022 @02:22PM (#30910189)
And I’d add - trust them to handle the consequences of your communication as well.

If it turns out they’re cool about it, what wonderful feedback for you about their reliability and understanding of you.

If it turns out they react badly, at least it’s feedback to ask yourself whether they’re worth that kind of trouble in the future.

If they’re passive aggressive about it - well, shame on them, and be very careful.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by Chris2048 on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:10PM (#30908314)
> I worry people don't quite realize how harmful this behavior is

trying to predict how people feel without talking to them is baked into thousands of years of evolution, not just for humans, and a large amount of human communication is implied or non-verbal as well. It's hard to think it's that harmful given we've coevolved with it.

BTW, would you only take this approach with close friends/partners, or bosses/coworkers too?

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by em-bee on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:41PM (#30908725)
it's harmful because it when it is wrong, then it can cause a lot of damage to the relationship. what we think others are feeling is always based on our own feelings. the reason it works, because most of the time, their feelings don't actually matter.

when bumping into a stranger, assume best intentions, apologize or say something else appropriate and move on. who cares what they actually think or feel.

the closer the person is, the more communication is warranted.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by IceMetalPunk on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:37PM (#30908662)
There are plenty of things we evolved to do/believe/think/perceive that are now harmful, because the world has changed and we haven't yet genetically evolved to fully adapt to it yet (and, because of medical technology, we may never do so). There are hundreds of cognitive biases that exist because they were an evolutionary benefit, but no longer are, or are no longer enough.

Predicting how people feel is empathy, and that's great! But stopping there and assuming your predictions are correct without actually verifying them with the person first? That's harmful. You're not too busy anymore running from lions and hunting deer to stop and talk to a person before forming your ideas about them.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by TameAntelope on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:20PM (#30908442)
We're not on the savanna hunting antelope anymore, so knowing that you're feeling, "scared of being eaten by the lion behind me" is no longer granular enough to be useful.
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by Chris2048 on Tuesday April 05, 2022 @03:27AM (#30916227)
Human ancestors evolved social skills way before they descended to the savanna. Chimps kill each other all the time, maybe evolving a way to predict feelings would be useful there?
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by jerry1979 on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:50PM (#30908861)
What does it look like to presume a feeling for someone else? The reason I ask is because I have a hard time connecting how thinking something can rob someone.

Also, when it comes to talking about things that happen in the mind, wouldn't hyperbolic assertions like "When you do X, you're actually robbing X" actually rob people of their own agency if the listener trusts the speaker as a legitimate authority?

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by TameAntelope on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:54PM (#30908923)
"Oh, they're not interested in going to this event, they probably think it's stupid."

"He's always talked about working more with his hands, I probably shouldn't forward him this desk job that'd otherwise be perfect for his career progression."

"She'd never date a loser like me."

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by fluoridation on Monday April 04, 2022 @01:19PM (#30909307)
It seems like you're confusing "robbing" and "not giving opportunities".
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by TameAntelope on Monday April 04, 2022 @01:22PM (#30909357)
"not giving opportunities for the expression of agency" doesn't roll off the tongue quite the same...
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by jerry1979 on Monday April 04, 2022 @04:00PM (#30911335)
I agree that robbing someone of their agency sounds very important; however, if I make assumptions about how someone feels, that could rob them of a potential opportunity, or it could also give them a new opportunity depending on the nature of my assumption.

Either way, their capacity to act (agency) remains intact.

The very important phrasing, in my estimation, can lead people to neurotically question their feelings less they "rob" someone of the capacity to act. In reality, a more lax quip such as "assuming makes an ass out of u-&-me" gives people more breathing room for their lapses in judgement.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by mitchdoogle on Monday April 04, 2022 @02:00PM (#30909887)
In this context, "robbing" fits just fine. Merriam-Webster lists this as a definition of "rob":

to deprive of something due, expected, or desired

So to say you're "robbing someone of their agency" is the same as saying you're "depriving them of an opportunity to decide for themselves"

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by fluoridation on Monday April 04, 2022 @02:06PM (#30909971)
I think we've gotten too hung up on a specific word, but if you really want to bring the dictionary into this, are you saying you owe it to other people to give them as many possibilities to decide for themselves? I would have to disagree with that assertion.
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by mitchdoogle on Monday April 04, 2022 @02:24PM (#30910232)
Think about it in reverse. Suppose your boss is thinking of increasing your responsibilities along with a significant pay bump, but they think about it and make the assumption that you like your current role and wouldn't like any new responsibilities. Wouldn't you rather make that decision yourself?

Or suppose you're single and there's an attractive acquaintance who is thinking of asking you on a date, but they overhear you talking to a friend about a date you had, and so they assume you wouldn't be interested. You don't want to make that decision yourself?

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by fluoridation on Monday April 04, 2022 @02:29PM (#30910310)
Yes, I would like to make those decisions. No, I don't think I'm owed the right to make them. To say otherwise would be silly; if we all honored such a right we'd be forever trapped navigating an interminable labyrinth of negotiation and consensus-reaching.
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by em-bee on Monday April 04, 2022 @03:27PM (#30910957)
reaching consensus and building unity is a good way to strengthen a community, organization or team, so no i don't think we'd be trapped. on the contrary, everyone would feel empowered.

most of our problems today are coming from the fact that people are disempowered and lack the agency to improve the situation.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by fluoridation on Monday April 04, 2022 @03:44PM (#30911148)
I misspoke. I should have said "consensus-seeking". The state of having reached consensus is good, yes. Perpetually seeking consensus is not.
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by em-bee on Monday April 04, 2022 @03:58PM (#30911306)
you need to seek consensus, in order to reach it, so i disagree. of course, if you can't find consensus after sufficient negotiation then that is a problem, but it depends on the nature of the relationship and the nature of the point in question, how much of a problem it is.

failure to reach consensus could threaten your relationship.

if my boss keeps making decisions for me then i'll eventually quit my job, because i am not willing to work like that. and if my partner does it then it will lead to a breakup and if it is something else, a judge might force a consensus on us.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by zestyping on Monday April 04, 2022 @04:12PM (#30911444)
This one is unfortunately quite common:

"You look unhappy. You must be expecting me to do something, and now [ I'm frustrated because I don't know what you want from me | I'm anxious about meeting the possible expectations I imagine you might have ]."

If someone looks unhappy, it might not be because of you. Even if they do have a need that you could meet, they might not expect you to meet it. Instead of guessing, you could simply gently ask.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by em-bee on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:56PM (#30908959)
the problem is when your presumed feeling leads to a different and possibly wrong decision.
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by 0des on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:21PM (#30908453)
I've encountered this before when preemptively using they/them for someone, that it was robbing them of their choice. I do my best to use a name or point until a pronoun is defined to avoid uncomfortable moments.
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by Broken_Hippo on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:32PM (#30908598)
This isn't the same thing: A person using they/them - when they do not know the other person's pronoun - is someone trying to be nice and not misgender someone. In other words, using neutral language unless confirmation of gender. Pointing isn't polite in all company and repeatedly using a name isn't natural speech.

It isn't taking someone's choice. All someone has to do is speak up.

Additionally: I use they/them when I'm speaking about friends that are not mutual friends. Usually, gender doesn't enhance the story. Same when talking about my spouse in situations where I'm talking about myself being bisexual. People do not need to know what sort of genitals my spouse has, especially when it is because they want to see "how queer I am".

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by zestyping on Monday April 04, 2022 @04:02PM (#30911357)
It's tricky. Not everybody _wants_ be called they/them. Not everybody wants to be called he or she either.

The way I try to work around this is to use "they" only when it would not sound grammatically unusual or confusing to do so, and otherwise rearrange the sentence to omit the pronoun.

As an example of the first, "That's their phone on the table" sounds natural because singular "their" is a lot more common than singular "they", and it's unambiguous because a phone is typically owned by an individual.

As an example of the second, "I met Bill yesterday and they went to the store with me" is odd because it sounds like "they" either doesn't agree with singular "Bill" or refers to some earlier plural antecedent, so I'd rephrase it "I met Bill yesterday and we went to the store together" or something like that.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by jonnycomputer on Monday April 04, 2022 @01:04PM (#30909085)
Maybe English should go the Finnish route and abandon gendered pronouns entirely.
Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by throwaway0a5e on Monday April 04, 2022 @02:04PM (#30909946)
> When you presume a feeling for someone else, you're robbing them of their own agency.

There are unfortunately heck of a lot of people out there who (going by their actions) don't see denying people agency as a bad thing except when it is brought up as a standalone topic.

Re:Are you a baby? A litmus test by cowuser666 on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:53PM (#30908903)
Seems like a fragile kind of agency if people trying to interpret you crushes it.