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Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:35PM (#30834621)
I don't want to see what comes next. It's been a continuous negative slide for as long as I've been alive. Goodbye union jobs with benefits and pensions (that didn't require college either!). Goodbye full time jobs with benefits. Hello gig economy, creator economy, social media influencers, etc. Based on that trajectory, I expect our kids will be living in a Blade Runner-esque post apocalyptic grungy world hustling NFTs to pay for a bowl of ramen.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by nitwit005 on Monday March 28, 2022 @06:40PM (#30836463)
Unless you happened to get hired on by some organization like the Catholic church that was willing to pay for art and music, there hasn't been job security for creative professions pretty much throughout history.

It was musicians who seem to have coined the word "gig" back in the 1920s. The usage of the term is a reference to what they have always been dealing with.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by hoseja on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:24AM (#30842222)
Art and music are given outsize importance and attention as a societal cohesion crutch. There should be less artists.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by technofiend on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:03PM (#30836679)
Right? I assume tech support lines will soon force customers through "turkstations"; you'll need to solve a few captchas or maybe resolve a few support tickets for others before someone does the same for you. In-browser coin mining while you hold and you don't come off hold until hitting the minimum is a "great" way to let people with better computers (and therefore are more likely better paying or better able to pay) jump the queue. Microtransaction to outsource jobs or offset cost of support is somewhere on the chain of next logical steps.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:31PM (#30836872)
Interviews will be the one's from Gattaca. Performance reviews will be the carousel from Logan's Run.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by gumby on Monday March 28, 2022 @06:19PM (#30836302)
> I don't want to see what comes next. It's been a continuous negative slide for as long as I've been alive.

Opera, orchestras, chamber music, the “big band” period, and the 1950s-1990s “music industry” were all products of their respective times’ technological and economic structure, which some people learned to exploit and others did not. Those exploitation models were just passing artifacts.

You just see a particular point in time, a business model, and the life of the then winners and draw a conclusion from that.

I don’t know what the future may be but it is most certainly not a return to any status quo ante. But I do know that apart from a minuscule fraction of people, nobody in “music” (however it was described at a given time) ever made much, if any living from it.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by Karrot_Kream on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:33PM (#30836894)
I think you've been reading too much online negativity. In the past even math and science was performed by either aristocrats or precocious folks at the behest of their patron. If anything, humanity has become better at guaranteeing employment for folks who don't directly and immediately move somebody's bottom line. Moreover the Western art scene until the '90s was also quite conservative with what it depicted and who it allowed to participate. Other art scenes (North and South Indian film, Yose entertainment in Japan, etc.) around the world had their own interesting niches, funding models, and lifestyles.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:39PM (#30836930)
It seems harder to get a job today due to in-depth background checks. Until the pandemic employers were extremely picky. We're also sitting near record low labor participation rates. If it's so easy to get a job now, why were participation rates higher?
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by Karrot_Kream on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:42PM (#30836947)
This thread is scoped to the "creator economy" (see the title, the article, and the other toplevel threads.) I'm not talking about the economy as a whole, and even then we would need to scope that down to a place, a time period, etc etc.

But if we're on the topic of creatives, just look at the pushback that the Jackson 5 received in America or that NWA had in the '90s. Yes it probably was easier to be a white, male artist in the '50s-'90s (like the Beatles), but the case was much murkier for anyone else. And it's not like the establishment went unscathed by technology change either. There's a song titled "Video Killed the Radio Star" after all...

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:55PM (#30837016)
With the collapse of live music, I highly doubt this is true. You could get gigs at bars and stuff. Few places today have live music.

Yes, minority artists might not have made it big in the past, but there was demand in the establishments that were run/supported/patronized by their respective group.

If anything, technology has made success/wealth inequity worse by making music cheap and accessible, thus allowing people to have unlimited music (replays) for little money. This killed a lot of live music and funneled that money to the upper echelon on musicians.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by Karrot_Kream on Monday March 28, 2022 @09:06PM (#30837514)
Without numbers both you and I are just grasping at our feelings. That said, the technology to make music "cheap and accessible" enough to displace live music "thus allowing people to have unlimited music" has been around since at least the early 1900s with the creation and maturation of the record player/phonograph. I don't think this is a new phenomenon. This "killing of live music" would have happened long before the Beatles were even born.

Further improvements in portable audio like the cassette tape, the CD, and eventually digital music only improved the portability of music for individuals but commercial settings have had the ability to replace live music at venues for a century. I don't think the root cause for the decline of live music was technical. I think cultural attitudes toward music changed, that's all.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:22PM (#30838029)
This has some information in it. It seems like cost is a major factor in the reduction of live music, allowing cheaper recorded music to take its place in some cases.

I do see cultural attitudes playing a role too. My guess is they both play a part.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by Kye on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:12PM (#30837966)
There's tons of live gigs at every scale. If you don't see it, you're not looking. It wasn't that long ago I joined everyone else in a coffee shop singing covers with the band.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:20PM (#30838015)
It seems like it is less today than it was years ago. But maybe that's just the more rural areas and small towns.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @02:07PM (#30846266)
>If it's so easy to get a job now, why were participation rates higher

An abundance of wealth and entertainment. A record number of people are able to eek out a minimal living without having to work in traditional markets. It is not a great life, but not desperate enough to enter the job market.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by kqr on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:07PM (#30834951)
I agree. I don't think the current trajectory even can continue -- for the reasons you bring up.

I'm hoping what comes next is a significant step not forward, and not back, but to the side: an increase in cooperatives and other forms of small-scale communism -- people who get together and do things for each other based on what they can and what they need.

People working for people. Not for layers of middle managers and subcontractors fulfilling meaningless specifications until only 5 % of the effort actually makes it to the person who needs it, with every layer along the way scraping off a bit of their cut.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by hellotomyrars on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:45PM (#30836013)
I don’t think these things are as linked in that way exactly.

The benefits of employers to employees has certainly gone down and that’s disgusting but the creator economy that’s been propped up by the internet in a way that was not possible beforehand I think is plenty good, and not a viable career/job for most people.

I don’t think people are going to eschew traditional employment en made to try to make it as creators. It’s not going to happen for most and the pressing needs of survival aren’t going to allow many to pursue it.

Social media influencers are gross for a lot of reasons but people making content for an audience that is willing to pay is a good thing. Structuring a company so that 90% of its workforce aren’t employees to deny having to pay them reasonable wages/benefits is a bad thing. I just don’t think they’re directly connected.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by jopsen on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:07PM (#30836705)
You're mixing a lot of things.

Creative jobs, whether journalism, acting, writing, music, etc. have always been a difficult business.

Creator economy is no different than the poor musicians 30 years ago.

The fall of unions and rise of gig economy is more concerning. But unrelated to entertainment industry, which has always been insecure/underpaid/risky..

Side note: when I heard how taxies used to be rented on per-day basis by the driver, I'll admit I became less sure the gig economy was a step down.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:26PM (#30836833)
"Creator economy is no different than the poor musicians 30 years ago."

Maybe. 30 years ago you could work a blue collar day job that paid decent money and play gigs at night. More places had live music back then too.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by nivenkos on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:06PM (#30834939)
Just read Snow Crash.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by schlauerfox on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:04PM (#30836684)
Some modern fiction in the vein of snowcrash is this piece by Dan Olson @ foldablehuman on twitter. https://www.patreon.com/posts/59993510
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by randito on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:41PM (#30835297)
or read Ready Player One. enjoy your stay at the stacks.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by floren on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:56PM (#30835472)
Nobody should read Ready Player One.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by djs070 on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:09PM (#30835590)
For those of us who haven't, could you explain why?
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by floren on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:15PM (#30835675)
It is poorly-written, derivative, and juvenile. The protagonist wins ownership of the Internet (and gets the girl) by playing video games well and knowing the most 80s "geek" trivia. I think the comparisons to GamemasterAnthony's birthday ("every character from every game, comic, cartoon, TV show, movie, and book reality come in with everything for a HUGE party") are rather apt... lots of the book is just the protagonist going to a virtual environment and noting that an R2D2 model has been instantiated there or whatever.

Basically, if you've read Snow Crash you'll be disappointed, and if you haven't read Snow Crash, you should just read it instead.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by libraryatnight on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:31PM (#30835866)
Man, I hate to encourage the "elitist asshole" title given to me in real life for crapping on Ready Player One, but this micro-review nails it.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by nebula8804 on Monday March 28, 2022 @06:57PM (#30836618)
As a 30s something person, the movie had me rolling my eyes. It was designed for the now in vogue Gen Z crowd. A group that apparently don't remember the 80s and 90s when computing was more unstable, there was a lot less software and that you had to internalize that the lower layers were more fragile and built on a bed of sand.

These people live their lives entirely in the application layer and come up with all these fantasies of Virtual Reality and all the magical stuff it entails. I hate it and everything that comes with this new world and I want to re-live the simpler times of the 90s and the 00s.

I fear that time is long gone though. Just that feeling of millennials now beginning to be brushed aside in favor of the next generation's worldview is jarring because now I have to live in it or disconnect and try to retain the memories of the past. I guess every generation goes through it.

I miss the world of Scott Pilgrim vs. The World. That took place during the beginnings of Obama's "Hope and Change". Things were on the upswing. Climate change was not in your face as much as it is now. No coming world war and economic collapse. Just a bunch of hipsters and a guy trying to overcome the baggage of his dream girl the old fashioned way: by battling her seven evil exes via old style 2d video game fighting.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by jfengel on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @02:26PM (#30846511)
As a 50 something person it was really surreal watching somebody else be nostalgic for my childhood.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by Animats on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:40PM (#30835955)
Basically, if you've read Snow Crash you'll be disappointed, and if you haven't read Snow Crash, you should just read it instead.

I tend to agree. Although, in Snow Crash, not much happens in the metaverse. Most of the action is in the real world.

I was hoping for a Snow Crash movie. That project has been in and out of development hell for years. (It would have to be heavily censored. "Mr Lee's Hong Kong" would annoy China, "White Columns" would annoy the woke people, and evangelical Christians being a front for a cult created to support a scam would annoy the Trump voters.)

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by gumby on Monday March 28, 2022 @06:12PM (#30836262)
> Although, in Snow Crash, not much happens in the metaverse. Most of the action is in the real world.

Which is one of its insightful points.

“White Columns” would not only not offend anyone woke, but satisfy their assumptions.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by wincy on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:25PM (#30835801)
I had to quit reading Ready Player One at the point the protagonist got into an 80s pop culture trivia competition in a VR chat room and he won, and everyone started cheering and clapping. Even though this was fictional I cringed so hard I just couldn’t keep reading.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by tkahnoski on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:55PM (#30836110)
If you're ok with the a typical male protagonist nerding out over a Flux Capacitor you'll get through just fine. If a story that's 50% nostalgic references isn't cool it'll be a very slow read...

There's some interesting ideas around the dystopian state of the world and whether it is a result of the virtual universe or not, but only a few chapters dig into that.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by tootie on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:16PM (#30835683)
Creator economy and gig economy are not related. Creator economy refers to things like YouTubers being able to create content and reach viewers directly. It replaces the need pitch a show to a TV network or find a gallery to hang your art. The evolution in this article is the shift from ad-based revenue model to subscriber-based.
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by karmasimida on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:30PM (#30835857)
> Goodbye union jobs with benefits and pensions

If they can be more efficient, maybe they could survive.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by samcal on Monday March 28, 2022 @05:37PM (#30835918)
The whole point of a union is to have a way to challenge management effectively if their work conditions are worsened in the name of "efficiency".

This comment drastically underestimates the amount of capital spent on suppressing union activity, it's not as if they're operating in a vacuum.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by AmericanChopper on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:46PM (#30836969)
I thought the whole point was supposedly to raise wages through collective bargaining?
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @08:26PM (#30837235)
That's sort of what they have become. A couple generations ago, it was for working conditions.

For my coal mining grandfather, it meant safety equipment like respirators so you didn't get black lung, and that the company had to send down a meal for you if you were working a double (before that you had to rely on the next shift to give you items from their lunches, if they were willing to share).

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by AmericanChopper on Monday March 28, 2022 @08:38PM (#30837327)
> For my coal mining grandfather, it meant safety equipment like respirators so you didn't get black lung

We have OSHA for that today, so I don’t think the primary purpose of a union is to file OSHA complaints…

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @08:49PM (#30837413)
If you read my comment and didn't respond out of context, you'll see that they were started for working conditions. And yes, pay is part of it too.

Who do you think lobbied to start OSHA? It was the unions.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by AmericanChopper on Monday March 28, 2022 @09:38PM (#30837757)
Crediting unions solely for pursuing the creation of federal workplace safety regulations is a bit of a revision. It was a issue of significant public interest in the late 60s, and the specific reason that OSHA ended up being created was that Nixon had made a campaign promise to address workplace safety.

But regardless of the history, it’s not longer especially relevant to the roles of unions today, and certainly adds nothing to the value unions supposedly provide to their members.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:17PM (#30837995)
I didn't credit them solely. Yes workers and workers right organizations supported it. Unions were the main ones lobbying it. We all know that without lobbying things don't get done in the US (unfortunately).

The question wasn't about what unions do today. The question specifically asked what unions were for. I stand by my statement that they were formed not only for pay increases, but also for working conditions improvements.

Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by samcal on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:09PM (#30849995)
Wages are certainly included in the conditions of work, some would say they're among the most important!
Re:Today’s creator economy was built on subscribers and patr... by giantg2 on Monday March 28, 2022 @07:29PM (#30836861)
You can be as efficient as you want, but there's no way to compete in things like manufacturing when foreign labor is literally pennies on the dollar.